Grad school help?

[Suckermouth]

Hello all. I'm a senior at the University of Delaware and, as such, I will soon be graduating and moving on to... Where? I don't know yet. I've started looking into it but I still don't know too much about the whole thing.

So far, I've basically been looking at it from the bottom up: I'm looking for scientists that I would like to work with based on papers they've written. I haven't contacted any of them yet as I'm not sure what I would say. I'm posing this question on PlanetCatfish because I'm interested in researching, of course, in catfishes; I don't know if this is the best type of place to put this but I figure it's a start.

Here are a couple names I've found, mostly by just by looking at scientific papers and picking out people that work in the US.
Jon Armbruster
John Friel
John Lundberg
Scott A. Schaefer
Mark Sabaj Perez
James Albert
Uriel Buitrago-Suarez

Of course, just because someone doesn't do research catfishes doesn't mean that I can't work with them and do catfishes. Because of that, am I going about this completely the wrong way? I have heard that it's better just to go to a prestigious school, and then work out doing a research project with someone from a smaller school. I also realize that some of these people do not actually work at schools, but rather at museums, such as Lundberg; however, ACSI lists people work with some of these people.

Basically anyone with tips or info for applying to grad school, I'd love to hear it. I need all the help I can get, haha.

[Silurus]

Here are the things you consider when applying for grad school:

1, What can you get out of the program/advisor? You have to look at what you can learn from the PhD program and your advisor. This means that it's also good to look at advisors who are systematic ichthyologists, but do not necessarily work on catfishes (my advisor, Bill Fink, works on piranhas). In other words, it's not always about catfish.

2. Do you want to work in a place with ready access to specimens? Some universities have natural history collections, many don't (this was one of my concerns, which is why I ended up at the University of Michigan). Conversely, some major US collections (which are not degree-conferring institutes) have affiliate programs with universities (e.g. American Museum of Natural History with Columbia University, National Museum of Natural History with George Washington University) which allow you to base yourself in these collections. I don't know if the Academy of Natural Sciences has such a program...if they don't then John (Lundberg) and Mark (Sabaj) are not viable candidates as advisors.

3. You might want to consider an institution with a strong tradition of systematic ichthyology research (I did).

Hope this helps.

[Suckermouth]

Here are the things you consider when applying for grad school:

1, What can you get out of the program/advisor? You have to look at what you can learn from the PhD program and your advisor. This means that it's also good to look at advisors who are systematic ichthyologists, but do not necessarily work on catfishes (my advisor, Bill Fink, works on piranhas). In other words, it's not always about catfish.

2. Do you want to work in a place with ready access to specimens? Some universities have natural history collections, many don't (this was one of my concerns, which is why I ended up at the University of Michigan). Conversely, some major US collections (which are not degree-conferring institutes) have affiliate programs with universities (e.g. American Museum of Natural History with Columbia University, National Museum of Natural History with George Washington University) which allow you to base yourself in these collections. I don't know if the Academy of Natural Sciences has such a program...if they don't then John (Lundberg) and Mark (Sabaj) are not viable candidates as advisors.

3. You might want to consider an institution with a strong tradition of systematic ichthyology research (I did).

Hope this helps.

Thanks a lot, your information and help is greatly welcomed! I have to admit I have great respect for you and just the sheer number of species and work in the field. What little you've said has already got me thinking about this in a new way.

That last point surprises me because I didn't even know any institutions actually had such traditions, that's a new one for me. How can I go about learning what universities have such a tradition? I assume there isn't some sort of list that orders universities by number of species described or something like that.

Any other tidbits would be appreciatd.

Thanks again

[Silurus]

In my last point, I actually meant schools where there have been long and active research programs in systematic ichthyology. One way to check this is to look at where current and past ichthyologists have graduated. Several schools that come to my mind:

1. U of M (sorry, can't help being biased towards my alma mater)
2. Harvard (although the Lauder lab is not now a systematic ichthyology lab - this is something to consider if you are more into functional morphology and biomechanics)
3. University of Florida Gainesville
4. University of Texas Austin

A number of institutions (e.g. Stanford) no longer have faculty members who are systematic ichthyologists, so the list is a fluid one. I also apologize for it being so short, as that's all I can come up with before I have to leave my office.

Some up-and-coming ones worth considering:

1. Auburn (Armbruster)
2. Cornell (Friel)

But you already know these.

I would seriously consider the museum-affiliate programs. The AMNH-Columbia and NMNH-GWU programs are really worth a look.

[Suckermouth]

Hey, thanks again. It's really helpful. It's not like I'm going to be applying to twenty schools so the list doesn't need to be extremely long. Do all the schools you listed do have collections?

When looking at scientists that do not work with catfishes, how important is it that do work on species in the same geographical area? As I see it, where they go to collect fish will affect what species I would be able to work with; I feel like I probably shouldn't go talk to someone who works with butterflyfish and hope I can work with South American catfishes. However, I know you've done work with catfishes from Africa and Asia, while piranhas are of course South American.

I see a couple people have gotten their PhD's from Illinois Urbana-Champaign. Do you know anything about that? It's possible that the research advisor(s) for them no longer works there, too, I suppose, which would be pretty important to know.

[Carp37]

The sitation's probably very different in the States to here in the UK, but over here, in the late 80s when I did my PhD, there were two ways to go about it. By far the majority of PhD research programmes were ones that potential supervisors submitted by lecturers in advance to research councils (i.e. with no potential candidate confirmed), and these were approved or rejected, then advertised nationally for potential students. When I was applying, there were zero of these that were orientated towards systematics or taxonomy. However, in addition, each University was allocated a certain number (the amount at each University/Department depending on their research record, among other things) of funded PhD posts for potential students to contact lecturers with their own ideas for PhD research- if the lecturer's happy to work with you, he/she would then submit an application for one of these posts.

In addition, one of my tutors (we did a third year project during my final undergraduate year, and mine was overseen by said tutor) helped me by contacting a couple of potential PhD supervisors- if you can find all the info out yourself then it shows more initiative to do this yourself, but it can't hurt to have a lecturer who knows you and can give a suitably positive reference to your credentials to endorse you. I was accepted to work on goby systematics, which are nice enough fish but a far cry from the sharks/catfish/cichlids I'd have preferred to work on...

Best of luck anyway.

[Silurus]

Do all the schools you listed do have collections?

Yes, they do.

When looking at scientists that do not work with catfishes, how important is it that do work on species in the same geographical area? As I see it, where they go to collect fish will affect what species I would be able to work with; I feel like I probably shouldn't go talk to someone who works with butterflyfish and hope I can work with South American catfishes. However, I know you've done work with catfishes from Africa and Asia, while piranhas are of course South American.

Your research project is typically independent of whatever research your advisor undertakes. Whatever fieldwork you undertake for your project tends to be independent of your advisor's. Of course, this also means that you have to source your own funding for fieldwork (too bad the All Catfish Species Inventory will be over by the time you start grad school).

I see a couple people have gotten their PhD's from Illinois Urbana-Champaign. Do you know anything about that?

This is probably the INHS (Illinois Natural History Survey)-UIUC program.

Have a look at the “Careers in Ichthyology” website by the American Society of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists for more resources and information.

[Suckermouth]

Ah wow, I have a lot to learn about how research works... So far my undergraduate research projects have mostly been side things professors or other grad students already have. I haven't had to try to get funding on my own yet or indeed do something independent of what a research advisor has already been planning to do. Wow.

Thanks for the link, I soaked it right up. Lot of schools there, but of course not all of them do systematics. They do mention that Academy of Natural Sciences has a program with UPenn, which is great. I'll have to look into that more.

[Suckermouth]

Hmmm, apparently American Museum of Natural History actually has their own graduate school (Richard Gilder grad school) but will also keep their associations with schools such as Columbia. I'll probably end up e-mailing Schaefer himself what's his opinion on this whole deal, but I was curious if you have any two cents from anything you might know about this.

[Silurus]

Nope, sorry. Don't know anything about the RGGS. It was apparently set up after I had graduated and left Ann Arbor.

[Suckermouth]

Hmmm, I see, thanks. Schaefer claims it's very competitive to get fellowships there, so I'm weighing the options whether or not I should apply to RGGS as well as another school that associates with AMNH, like Columbia.

BTW, I'm getting the idea that a collection can be very good, but how exactly does a school having access to a vertebrate collection actually contribute to my experience? I assume that combing through some of the collection can sometimes yield undescribed species. Also, specimens already in a school's collection are easily available for interspecific comparisons. Did I hit the nail on the head or are there other benefits, too?

[MatsP]

My guess would be that the act of having a collection also implies a certain level of comittment to the science itself. But that's just my inference.

By the way, I'd give a vote for Austin, TX, as it's a quite nice place... But choosing schools because the place is nice is perhaps not the most bestest method

--
Mats

[Silurus]

but how exactly does a school having access to a vertebrate collection actually contribute to my experience?

It just makes your work all that much easier. If you go to one without a collection, you have to assemble the material and keep track of all the loaned specimens by yourself. If you are working in a collection, there is less material to assemble (unless you are working on a group not represented in your collection) and the collection manager may be able to help you keep track of loans.

All that time and effort saved can be better utilized for your research.

[Jon]

Just out of curiosity, are there any more molecularly oriented programs around, i.e. those potentially viable in a biomedical sort of perspective (and not danio rerio related)?

I've had a few convos about a future in ichthyology (my main passion is molecular bio) with some of the staff here, including Mary Powers, but I get a lot of " just do what you think is right".