Glyptoperichthys Scrophus behavior change?

Manix · Post by **Manix** » 23 Jun 2003, 14:10

My rhino has been acting funny for the past week. Normal behavior for him is sitting quietly under his driftwood during the day. Lately he has been huddled next to the heater or wondering listlessly.

Nothing in my tank has changed except I have added one young Mbuna cichlid. They never cross paths and the cichlid ignores the rhino.
The tank is well established.
No amm. no nitrite, no nitrate, Ph is stable at 7.6 and the water hardness hasn't changed in over a year (can't recall numbers). The fish himself looks very healthy. His colors are good, his fins are full and healthy, and his eyes are nice and clear. Yet the other day I saw that his eyes were drawn in! Of course I worried. I couldn't find anything wrong and had just finushed cleaning the tank and changing water the week before. I gave him extra food that night and let him be. The next day he looked better, but his eyes were still not back to normal. Again, I fed him more than normal. This time he didn't eat at all. Last night he seems to have eaten, but I can't be sure if it was him or the cichlid finishing off the leftovers.

What could be cuasing this sudden change in behavior? Could the presence of the mbuna upset him this much? He's had tank mates before, some more aggressive than this. What do you think?

Thanks for the help.

Post by **Barbie** » 23 Jun 2003, 18:52

You mention cleaning the tank and changing the water. How much water do you change when you do this? How large is the tank? A tank with zero ammonia and nitrite is a great thing, a tank with zero nitrate is not a healthy one, however. The presence of nitrate indicates your tank has colonies of bacteria that digest the waste your fish put off. You definitely either have a very large problem, or your test kits are no good and should be replaced, IMO.

Barbie

Manix · Post by **Manix** » 23 Jun 2003, 20:57

You mention cleaning the tank and changing the water.
How much water do you change when you do this?

Almost 30% (however much it takes to clean up after a pleco), I do this once a month. Until two weeks ago he was the only fish in there.

How large is the tank?

A 20 gallon tall, established for one year.

A tank with zero ammonia and nitrite is a great thing, a tank with zero nitrate is not a healthy one, however. The presence of nitrate indicates your tank has colonies of bacteria that digest the waste your fish put off

I thought nitrate was a bad thing...

You definitely either have a very large problem, or your test kits are no good and should be replaced, IMO.

The test is brand new. This is the first time I've tested for nitrates in my six years of fishkeeping. The test was aquarium pharmaceuticals (the one in the purple box).

What now?

T · Post by T » 24 Jun 2003, 00:56

No nitrate seems a little strange.

Post by **Barbie** » 24 Jun 2003, 03:25

Hi Manix,

Here are some links to the cycling process, to give you a better understanding of exactly what happens in your tank when you keep fish. If they don't explain it well enough, I'll definitely be happy to try to help you get it straightened out.

http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquasource/cy ... cles.shtml

This way I hopefully won't miss anything. Your water changes should probably be done a bit more frequently, but the only thing I could guess might be wrong with your pleco is either aggression issues that you aren't seeing from the african, some form of bacteria or other nasty bug introduced into the tank since you don't mention quarantining the new fish, or the water quality issues that I suggested earlier. Hope this helps,

Barbie

Manix · Post by **Manix** » 24 Jun 2003, 13:21

Perhaps I should have mentioned this tank is partially planted with java fern. I was not aware that plants used nitrate...could this account for the seemingly zero reading. I do not add any suppliments to the tank for the plants, so, they live off whatever's in the tank . Perhaps there are nitrates but the amount is simply too little to read. The rhino is doing better today, he has abandoned the heater and moved back under his driftwood. His eyes look better as well. Just what sort of reading should I be seeing?

Thanks for the help and the links.

Manix · Post by **Manix** » 25 Jun 2003, 13:00

*bump*

The rhino isn't improving much. He's moved back under his driftwood, but he's anything but back to normal. I had to poke the poor thing this morning to make sure he was till alive! He was so still and stunned looking I thought for sure he was dead. What's worse, when I poked him he didn't jerk away like he should. He flinched a tiny bit but just sat there with this glazed over look...I seperated him and the cichlid last night to give him some privacy. He seems to have eat his food. There's still no external signs of disease and the water readings are the same. The other fish is very healthy. What do I do!?

Post by **Silurus** » 25 Jun 2003, 13:49

Are the eyes still sunken in?

Manix · Post by **Manix** » 25 Jun 2003, 14:43

The degree varies from day to day. Today they weren't that bad but certainly not what they should be. He eyes have had a slight haze to them ever since I've had him (over a year). Right now his eyes are stunningly clear. I haven;t seen them this clear since he was a baby.

Post by **Silurus** » 25 Jun 2003, 14:48

I was asking because if the eyes have started to sink inwards towards the sockets, that is usually a sign of an internal fungal infection, which is extremely difficult to treat.

Manix · Post by **Manix** » 25 Jun 2003, 15:25

What would you suggest?
In the past I've encountered unusual diseases with my plecos. By the time I notice them though, they've progressed from internal to external. What I mean is, they've become so weakened by the thing I can't see, they contract other things. I try to treat those and never know about the other. Thus, they would die anyway. This time I seem to have cought WHATEVER it is in an early stage. I'm afraid he's coming down with the same unknown disease some of my others have had. I have no idea what to do for him. The normal antibiotics don't seem to work (with the other fish, they didn't). HELP! =(

Post by **Silurus** » 25 Jun 2003, 16:44

Try the strongest antifungal medication you can find.

Manix · Post by **Manix** » 25 Jun 2003, 17:25

In the remote chance he isn't sick. Will a full dose of med.s hurt him?

Post by **Barbie** » 25 Jun 2003, 17:59

I'd definitely suggest some 30% water changes. There is something wrong with your tests or your water, if you are feeding daily and not getting a nitrate reading. Java fern grows VERY slowly and I've never noticed it to be an even somewhat adequate reducer of nitrates. A tank has to be full of rather rapid growing plants, be densely planted and have adequate light, in my experiene, to reduce nitrate levels, let alone make them minimal like that. Water changes will remove any other dissolved substance that might be troubling him also. A full round of antibiotics wouldn't hurt him, if he's that listless he sounds pretty far gone. The meds won't tell you to, but make sure to do a partial water change every day before you add the new dose. The antibiotics don't concentrate in the water, they break down, so it doesn't hurt anything as far as the medication goes, and it DEFINITELY helps keep your water quality in better shape. Hope that helps,

Barbie

Manix · Post by **Manix** » 25 Jun 2003, 18:17

There you are B.! I get on the water changes when I get home. Is there any particular antibiotic you suggest? I have mostly mardel products at home but am stopping by the pet store on my way home today.
This is what I have at home:
Maracyn 1
Maracyn 2
Maracide
Melafix

Post by **Barbie** » 25 Jun 2003, 19:03

Sorry, I was slow to reply

I usually use Maracyn I and II at the same time when I'm treating for something that I'm unsure about. That way you cover gram negative and gram positive bacteria, even though 90% of the diseases fish are susceptible to are gram negative. Definitely do the 30% water changes every day before you add the meds, IMO. It won't hurt, and it definitely might help.

Barbie

Manix · Post by **Manix** » 25 Jun 2003, 19:27

Thanks everybody. I really hope this helps get Mr. Rammstein back to his old self.

mokmu · Post by **mokmu** » 27 Jun 2003, 16:32

It seems like the same has been happening to me. How do you avoid getting the bacterial fungal infections and stuff? BTW, this only happens in my Panaque tank. I clean my tanks every 2-3 days of 30% each. Water parameters are fine. I have two powerheads both with venturii devices. I also have a sump and 2 overhead trickle filters. I have lost a Gold Nugget (1-2 months ago), an L90c (2-3 weeks ago) and a Tiger Peckoltia (just today). All of them experienced the same symptoms

:

1 - They are almost always out in the open
2 - They don't hide immediately
3 - They hide and disappear a day before I find them dead, crammed in corners and/caves of the bogwood
4 - They don't show any external sickness or disease

It seems like what Manix has described is happening to me. Can anyone tell me why this is so? And what the h*ll am I supposed to do in this situation?

I am afraid that my P. Albomaculatus may be headed for the same problems. I need your help.

How are your fish Manix?

Regards,
Mike D.

Manix · Post by **Manix** » 27 Jun 2003, 20:02

This morning he was doing much better. I've started treating him with an antibiotic and leaving the lights off for him. I've been doing the water changes too. I've noticed in the past few months the waste load has increase in the tank. I vacuum more filth from the gravel than I did before. Perhaps water changes have been my problem. The bioload has increased as he has grown and I have not adjusted for it.
His appitite is back and he is clinging to his driftwood once again. I have also removed the cichlid from the tank. I swear I heard him shout for joy...
I will do water changes once a week now...it can't hurt.

mokmu · Post by **mokmu** » 27 Jun 2003, 23:42

Does it mean I have to increase my water changes? I already do them 2-3x a week. What kind of meds did you use? I normally am afraid to use meds. There isn't much to go on here in my country and I don't know when to stop using them. How about a salt bath? Will it work? How much salt to use and how long is the bath? Anyone? Thanks.

Mike D.

Manix · Post by **Manix** » 28 Jun 2003, 20:28

Well, Rammsein didn't eat last night. I did a water change this morning and left the lights off for him. I've also covered the tank so it will stay very dark for him. And hopefully encourage him to eat. He still LOOKS fine. But his behavior is still very strange. I thought about maybe trying salt too, but I do not having any fresh Aquarium salt at home, what I had was over 5 years old...I trashed it.I am wary of using salt anyway, as I'm not sure how the plecos will react.

I've been using Maracyn one and two combined, according to their directions. I will finish off this treatiment before starting something new. I am also using myacyn, another med by a different manufacturer. I use one capsule once a week very sparingly as this stuff does significant damage to the filter bed if your not careful. If anything, the maycyn has cured my copepod infestation!

On the up side. My L090 is doing very well. I was very worried about him the first two days becuase he had been in very acidic conditions and his fins were badly damage. He had clearly not been eating. However, last night he took to eating like a pig! This morning he had lost that painful looking caved-in belly and looked normal.

Manix · Post by **Manix** » 29 Jun 2003, 19:26

AGGGH! I'm so frustated right now it isn't funny. My worst fears have come to pass. The rhino is now showing signs of that dreaded unknwon disease I have no idea how to treat.

This thing first appeared about this time last year. I had this same rhino, a three beacon pleco, and a bushy nose. I lost the bushy and the beacon without even knowing what hit them! I purchased a 7 gallon as a hospital tank and put the rhino in it while I tore down the 20. Everytime this thing shows up, I first see the presense of little white bugs on the tanks glass a few weeks before hand. I normally keep a betta as well. This disease has a slightly different affect on them. They waste away, lose color and they bloat up around the head. About a month ago this happened and I did see the little white bugs (which I thought were copepodes!). I did not replace the betta. the rhino seemed fine so I hoped for the best.
Yesterday, I saw the first visable, external sign of this disease on the rhino. A blue film just inside of the gills. The gills should be a fluffy brown, but now they seemed to have retracted back behind the gill plate, leaving this blue film clearly visable.
the rhino ate a little last night. He is also showing a blue haze in his eyes.
The next phase will be an increase in the slime coat with a blue tint to it as well. I must stop this before it goes any further. It was a miracle that this fish has made it through this strange infection once. I'm not sure he will do it again. I do not keep logbooks and cannot recall what I treated him with before. I do recall it was several different things at once.
The sign of the film on the gills leads me to beleive this starts as an internal infection. I am not sure if it begins as a resportory infection. PLEASE! If you have any ideas or suggestions please help!

Here are my water readings for today.:

Amm.: 0ppm
PH : 7.6
High Range PH: 7.6
Nitrate: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
KH: 5 dgh
GH: 5 dgh
Temp.: 80 degrees F.

I'm still doing a 30% water change everyday. I'm still treating with Maracyn 1 and 2. I added a small amount of maracide. Yesterday and today (about 25% eccomened dose).

Manix · Post by **Manix** » 30 Jun 2003, 13:23

*bump*

Rammstein didn't eat last night...

Post by **Barbie** » 30 Jun 2003, 15:25

Those little white bugs are usually planaria. They're a sign that there are excessive organics in the tank from uneaten food, or just plain too much food in the water. The lack of nitrates in your tank still worries me. You talk about feeding every day, so there is definitely something there to be utilized by the bacteria, if the biobed is working properly. Stop feeding him for a week or so, for now. He has the reserves to make it through that, no problem. You're already treating him with antibiotics, so continue the course of those and continue doing small volume water changes more frequently. That really is all you can do. Fish don't HAVE to eat every day. Their water quality is MUCH more important to their health. Trust me. I really think you need to consider taking your water in to your local store and having them run a set of ammonia through nitrate tests on it. There has to be something out of whack there if you're seeing planaria and still getting no readings of any kind. Test kits definitely can go bad.

Barbie

Manix · Post by **Manix** » 30 Jun 2003, 15:49

Those little white bugs have me puzzeled. They are not of the same variety as they were last time. Last time their numbers were massive and they did resemble copepods. This time I see none of those. I see instead just a few worms. VERY tiny, white worms, about 1/4 of a mm. A closer looks shows what appears to be a thread on their tails. I tried putting them under a microscope but I can't focus in on them (cheap, mirror operated device, over ten years old).
What really has me confused is their sudden appearance when using melafix. Everytime I use melafix, even in small amounts, I see these white bugs! A couple of months ago I added a capful of melafix to help heal the rhinos fins from a fight.

The nitrate test is good. Just delivered to the store when I picked it up. Can't get newer than that unless you order direct. I tested the LFS's water and actually got a reading of 10 ppm. This from a tank just cycled.

colin · Post by **colin** » 06 Jul 2003, 21:57

What happened next Mannix ?

Manix · Post by **Manix** » 07 Jul 2003, 16:08

Well, I kept doing tests. I finished up the antibiotic treatments. I also removed the smaller PF and replaced it with a power head. I've kept the temp at 76 and scrubbed the glass down to get as many of the bugs off as I could. I then did a 90% water change to remove as much filth and as many of the free swimming bugs as I could.
Did all that thursday night. Its been 3 days since then and so far so good. All fish eating well and acting normal. My plan is to do a 50% water change once a week (is that too much?), and keep that glass scrubbed down.

Hopefully everything will be smooth running for a while anyway...

One thing is for sure. I got the first good look at the rhino in a long time thursday ( I removed him from the tank and placed him in a 1 gallon, covered with a towel to keep it dark, while I cleaned). His fins are enormous! I never expected his dorsal fin to get to that size...very impressive.

Glyptoperichthys Scrophus behavior change?

Glyptoperichthys Scrophus behavior change?

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