Goes well with Discus

RickE · Post by **RickE** » 05 Dec 2008, 14:50

Hi All

I'm new to this forum, so please excuse me if this has been answered previously. I have had a look through previous postings but can't see anything that specifically answers my question which is:

I'm looking for recommendations for good algae eaters that won't grow too big (maybe 4 or 5 inches max), look nice (obviously!), and most importantly won't bother discus and will be happy at discus temperatures. I had thought of zebra plecs but they are a bit too expensive for me. Does anyone have any suggestions please?

Thanks

Rick

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 05 Dec 2008, 15:26

I think species should do the trick for you.

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 05 Dec 2008, 15:52

I disagree on the Ancistrus; they don't like to be kept that warm.
they can handle it, for a while; but sudden death can happen spontaneously.

I've kept many Ancistrus, but also had a fair number die on me after the temperature was too high (like 27-30'C) for a long time.

Sturisoma can handle heat a LOT better than Ancistrus.
another good choice is Hypostomus, but be aware that a Hypostomus can be a feisty fish.
there are a few species that stay fairly small. 7-8" might still be a bit too big for youir plan, but be aware that Hypostomus are among the best algae eaters around.
a single fish can keep a 150 Gallon tank spotless......

both fish do like to have bogwood.

Panaque is another Loricariid that can handle the high end temperatures quite well, but it certainly eats tankfurniture. plants, wood, backpanels....

it's like having your very own belt-sander in there.

Panaque's get larger than 5", but they grow slowly and they're very peaceful to anything not-Panaque.

on the other hand; a proper discus tank has a low pH, subdued light and water that looks like tea. and no plants!
plants do not grow in the discus environment. too dark, too acidic and no nutrients at all.

another Loricariid with great looks, but it's not really a good cleaner is the Gold Nugget, Baryancistrus sp L81. perfectly happy in a warm tank, great looks and quite peaceful to non loricariids.

one of the smaller species is Hopliancistrus spp L017.
it's from the Xingu and that's a warm river. at a mere 5" it's quite small. looks great too.

there's a bunch of Oligancistrus too that like it hot.
some Peckoltia ditto.

btw you might check on any catfish from the Xingu.
any fish from there (the Zebra pleco is from there) will do fine in a warm discus tank.

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 05 Dec 2008, 17:06

sidguppy wrote:I disagree on the Ancistrus; they don't like to be kept that warm.

True. I indeed overlooked the temperature issue.....

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 06 Dec 2008, 01:18

I disagree on the Ancistrus; they don't like to be kept that warm.
they can handle it, for a while; but sudden death can happen spontaneously.

I agree, my didn't thrive in my warm acid discus setup. Maybe the Negro would be a better choice?

Sturisoma can handle heat a LOT better than Ancistrus.

have been reported to be fond of clinging to the sides of discus. Larry can confirm this I think.

one of the smaller species is Hopliancistrus spp L017.

but it's not really a good cleaner is the Gold Nugget, Baryancistrus sp L81.

, or would work, but attention must be payed to having sufficient water movement and oxygen for the loricariids, while giving the discus calm areas. Can be done, but needs some clever aquascaping.

I disagree about the being a poor cleaner. I found mine to be excellent algae eaters.

there's a bunch of Oligancistrus too that like it hot.

I had thought of zebra plecs

(= ) I do not believe are algae eaters based on their dentition, and neither is .

How about ?, these are reported to live in very warm water in the wild, and are fun little plecs.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 06 Dec 2008, 06:11

I respectfully disagree with a few recommendations and provisionally on one.
I have always kept and even bred Ancistrus cf cirrhosus with Discus. I have been routinely keeping a ~2" specimen in with all with my breeding Discus pairs for many years.

Parotocinclus jumbo that I have tried to keep with Discus obvious were uncomfortable at 84*F and lasted only a few months. I have otherwise kept them cooler for several years.

I have discovered that because of the difference in temperament between the timid Symphysodon discus(Heckels) and domineering S. haraldi(Blue/Brown Discus), that Sturisoma and Heckels does not work. The Blue/browns , on the other hand, will turn on an advancing Sturisoma and put it in it's place.
I just finished another Discus related post so I happen to have this photo of my wild Nhamunda blue Discus and their 'friends' still ready to paste so here you are. 6 "CD" sized wild Blue Discus, 2 pairs of Sturisoma, one of which spawned today, and there is a large male Ancistrus which devoured their eggs as they laid them. The rest of the fish in here are 12-3 month old L134, 12 Corydoras hastatus(I pretend they are tetras) and many more cherry shrimp than you can see. I bred and raised all the fish except these 6 wild ones. raised all the plants. and collected all the wood and sand from my favorite trout fly fishing stream.

Now what happens to Heckels when they are kept with Sturisoma.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 06 Dec 2008, 06:33

Wild Green and Heckel Discus are "black water" fish. Very soft and acid water
Wild Blue/Browns are "clear water" fish and over their large range, they do occur in water that has a pH up to 7.2 and moderately soft.
They are much less specialized than the other 2 Discus species. It is no accident that they form the predominate ancestors of today's fancy domestic Discus. The domestics I breed them in tap water. Actually, I have also bred many wild pairs of Browns and Blue in water with a pH of 7.6 and TDS of 470 ppm. This pair is in exactly that water.

Chrysichthys · Post by **Chrysichthys** » 07 Dec 2008, 15:15

An article on discus in Practical Fishkeeping recommended Panaque sp. L002, although I don't know on what grounds, other than that it worked well for the author. It went on to recommend some other catfish; this was several years ago and I don't remember them all, but I know was one of them.

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 07 Dec 2008, 19:14

Megalechis is cool, but it ain't no algae eater

RickE · Post by **RickE** » 08 Dec 2008, 09:48

Thanks everyone for the input, although I don't appear to be any closer to a solution!

Larry - congrats on the beautiful Discus - you've done exactly what I was hoping to do and have healthy (breeding if I'm lucky) Discus in a planted aquarium. Do you which strain red turqs are derived from? I nearly went with the Sturiosoma on saturday but having seen your pics I'm glad I didn't as this is just what I wanted to avoid.

It's a shame we're seperated by a rather large lake as we have very similar interests, I'm a fly-fisherman too. Might have to send you a PM with some photos of the River Test earlier this year.

So - back to square one - any more suggestions please anyone? Nice looking, small, good algae eater, happy at high temperatures and won't bother Discus.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 08 Dec 2008, 10:49

Unfortunately, most plecos prefer slightly cooler water than the Discus preferred temperature (as the plecos prefer fairly fast running water, which tend to be a bit cooler than a pond of still water), but here's a list of the smaller ones (up to 150mm) ones that are happy at high temps (29-30'C):
Link

You can do your own search by selecting Loricariidae, and enter the temp and other optional entries here: http:\\www.planetcatfish.com\catelog\search.php

--
Mats

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 08 Dec 2008, 11:34

Parotocinclus jumbo that I have tried to keep with Discus obvious were uncomfortable at 84*F and lasted only a few months.

Interesting observation Larry. Mine seemed fine at the warmer temps, but there was a heck of a lot of aeration and water movement in that tank - much more than discus would tolerate I think.

any more suggestions please anyone? Nice looking, small, good algae eater, happy at high temperatures and won't bother Discus

I don't have personal experience, but I think would work. Perhaps someone who has kept this species could advise?

OldMan · Post by **OldMan** » 08 Dec 2008, 12:03

Apistomaster, I think I am seeing some C. Hastatus in your discus picture and was a bit surprised. I would think the discus would look on them as dinner and I have never tried to keep mine nearly that warm. Am I just imagining it?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 08 Dec 2008, 13:23

racoll wrote:I don't have personal experience, but I think
Ancistrus dolichopterus
would work. Perhaps someone who has kept this species could advise?

I have no personal experience with these either, but I agree, they are likely to tolerate the Discus temperatures and do well in a very soft water tank.

--
Mats

RickE · Post by **RickE** » 08 Dec 2008, 15:40

Thanks guys, the A. dolichopterus look ideal. Anyone know a good source in the Watford, UK area?

Chrysichthys · Post by **Chrysichthys** » 08 Dec 2008, 16:04

sidguppy wrote:Megalechis is cool, but it ain't no algae eater

I didn't phrase that very well, I meant catfish other than plecos.

Megalechis will eat the puke of other fish. (Don't ask me how I know this).

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 08 Dec 2008, 19:11

I can't explain why P. jumbo did not thrive in with my Heckels. I keep my wild Discus all at 84*F.

I do not keep Discus the way most people do. I have a 75 gal tank set up with 10 Heckels and the 125 gal set up for Nhamunda S. haraldi.
Both tanks have the same filter systems; a 900 gph Wet/dry, an Eheim Classic 2217, and a large sponge filter run by a 160 gph MaxJet power head. I consider 10 X vol of tank the minimum nominal filtration rate. I am attempting to simulate the conditions during the flood season when Discus spawn in the trees of the flood plains. Large volume flows but they are not strong flows. I am sure the trees moderate and create plenty of quiet pockets. This is when Discus spawn and have more food available than the dry season when they are reduced to quiet low water lakes.
This is when they are collected but I don't think the dry season is a discus favorite time of the year. I think the collecting conditions have had a disproportionate influence on how aquarists believe discus should be kept.

I do have have a dozen Corydoras hastatus in my 125 gal tank. I raised about 300 of them this year. My C. hastatus happen to be at their most productive during the summer when it is impossible for me to keep any tank cooler than 86*F. My other Corys do not breed at the highest temperatures. I wanted to stock my 125 with fish I had bred and raised. I treat my C. hastatus more like they are a school of Tetras.
They spawn constantly in this discus tank. Again, I use far larger volumes of water circulation than other discus keepers and this suits all the catfish I chose to stock. I disagree with most of the conventional discus keeping knowledge base. I could be ignored, but for the fact I have had a bit too much success to be easily dismissed.

I am familiar with the River Test though my library of books about the history and evolution of fly fish techniques and fly design.
It was very much part of the formalization of different schools of fly fishing thought. It has been said that fly fishermen have produced more literature about their sport than has any other form of outdoors sporting pursuits. Who isn't familiar with Norman McClean's famous novella turned cinema, "A River Runs Through It". It is set in Missoula, MT, just 225 miles from me by way of US Highway 12, following Idaho's wild and scenic river, The Lochsa River, from which I collected all the wood and sand I used in setting up my 125 gal wild Discus tank. I also caught an released many of the native wild West Slope Cutthroat Trout during that trip this early September. The fly: #18 Peacock herl body, Elk Hair Caddis. The Lochsa River was part of the route used by Lewis and Clark. Here is that river.

And the wild West slope Cutthroat it contains.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 09 Dec 2008, 00:26

Larry, I know roughly where you live, and I know what you mean when you say "only 225 miles from here", but to someone living in England (Watford I take to be the town along the M1, just inside the M25), it's quite a distance to travel 225 miles. That would take you to Newcastle (Upon Tyne) - it's only a few steps further and we'd be in Scotland, another country [yes, I know, Canada isn't that far from where you live either]. I'm just trying to say that distances are different in a country where the furtherest you could possibly travel without going back on yourself is about 900 miles (Land's End in the southwest to John o'Groats in the north east), compared to one where the diagonal is about 3300 miles.

--
Mats

Post by **Birger** » 09 Dec 2008, 01:49

Larry, I know roughly where you live, and I know what you mean when you say "only 225 miles from here", but to someone living in England (Watford I take to be the town along the M1, just inside the M25), it's quite a distance to travel 225 miles. That would take you to Newcastle (Upon Tyne) - it's only a few steps further and we'd be in Scotland, another country [yes, I know, Canada isn't that far from where you live either].

Larry is really only a few hours away from me...I would not mind to drive down that way and drop in...and at Barbie's in Spokane, one day might just surprise them...

I too fish the slopes of the Rockies, both sides of the divide, the Bow River is a few minute walk away from my home...I prefer the BC side of the Rockies which is a quick jump (2 or 3 passes depends which way you go) over the mountains, the water's have more life in them...it would be more similar to Washington State.

Birger

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 09 Dec 2008, 02:21

Hi Mat, Birger and all
I got swept up by remembrances of the last fly fishing trip of the season. Sharing a couple fishing photos.
It is a large area and I live where the borders where the 3 very big states of Washington, Oregon and Idaho intersect. This is very low population density area, within such a large area.
Everyone here is surrounded by a lot of National forests high deserts or vast prairie's under agriculture
I referred to the town of Missoula, Montana, It lies just 225 east of me. Where the story and movie of the same name, "A River Runs Through It", were set.
225 miles isn't thought of as being very far by us natives.
I also am just 100 miles south of Spokane, WA. Where one of our pleco forum moderator lives and closest cluster of decent fish shops to me.
Biger, just a heads up and drop by. You too, are surrounded by great trout rivers.
100 miles to good fish shops must seem pretty far to to most members. I ship in most of my new fish because that is what usually takes to get anything different or cool.

After awhile of being connected to the internet, it seems like a smaller world, Instantaneous communications and all.
One kind of familiarity is not the same as the one extending to our respective familiar environments.

RickE · Post by **RickE** » 10 Dec 2008, 16:09

racoll wrote:
I don't have personal experience, but I think
Ancistrus dolichopterus
would work. Perhaps someone who has kept this species could advise?

Now I'm confused - searching for a local source of A. dolichopterus online and I found this pic:

: hoplogenys or dolichopterus?

A. dolichopterus they show as much less attractive without the white edging and clearly visible spots shown in these pics. Can anyone clarify please?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 10 Dec 2008, 16:34

There are a lot of fish pictured all over the Web as "A. dolichopterus" - however it is one of the easiest fish to DECIDEDLY determine correct species, as a true A. dolichopterus has more rays in the dorsal fin than any other [known] Ancistrus species - If it has more than 8 dorsal rays, it's 99.99% sure to be a A. dolichopterus - and a lower number, it's another species.

--
mats

RickE · Post by **RickE** » 10 Dec 2008, 16:51

OK, thanks Mats. Think I'll go and have a look at Wildwoods at the weekend.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 10 Dec 2008, 19:39

RickE wrote:OK, thanks Mats. Think I'll go and have a look at Wildwoods at the weekend.

Let me know if you find any - I wouldn't mind getting some myself. Be aware, however, that there are several Ancistrus that are ALMOST like A. dolichopterus (and probably, in general, as good fish). is one of those.

--
Mats

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 10 Dec 2008, 22:14

Be aware, however, that there are several Ancistrus that are ALMOST like A. dolichopterus (and probably, in general, as good fish). Ancistrus sp(L213) is one of those.

My L213 didn't thrive in my discus tank, so I would try and find the true A. dolichopterus. Not a common fish in the trade, but you should be able to get hold of it, if you are patient enough.

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