Hybridizing in aquarium industry -destroying it?

[L number Banana]

Hi, many of you have tried to help me set up my first catfish tank and your input saved me so many hours of trouble or heartache that could have resulted from not supplying my fish proper conditions. Thanks.

My recent adventure in buying a fish that might be a hybrid but was not sold as such made me think that this could be a real problem for this industry. I've noticed that many things are hybridized 'for the good of the animal' (?) and then again there's cats and dogs that are so purebred that it's detrimental to their health.

I'll be writing an article for a small pet magazine and would like a better understanding on what is going on in the aquarium fish industry. I'll be speaking to two breeders (so far) about this but it's the people who really value their fish and their hobby that have the most at stake. If anyone wants to chime in, please do. Your input would be valuable and of course I would give credit if your comments end up in the article. I would send a pm with a permission request before ever using anything. If you have a comment and definitely don't want it used, no problem there either. This is speak EASY
Here's my questions;

Can anyone tell me if they have discussed hybridizing with their LFS? Are they even aware of the damage it could do or is this like a taboo subject?

Is there any way of certifying that your fish is the real deal other than wild caught?

Has anyone heard of government regulations regarding this issue? I've looked at my own government and there are rules for certain breeds of fish with regards to disease but little else. Would hobbyists want this?

Considering that I'm a bit of a research nut, I found myself on the ** end of the stick but *possibly* buying a hybrid that would be contributing to an industry I don't support. Is there anything or any tips that would help people new to the hobby to steer clear of this kind of mistake?

Would you be interested in seeing a code of conduct that fish sellers could sign onto to show that they do not support this practice?

Are there people who do support it and think that 'the more the merrier'?

I realized this is happening when I bought a catfish, do you know if this is happening with other aquarium fish?

Thanks for any help - what an frustrating issue!
Tana

[Silurus]

do you know if this is happening with other aquarium fish?

There are hybrid torpedo barbs (discused here).

[L number Banana]

Thank Silurus,

That's really sad but I hope the person that got them in by mistake doesn't sell them
Currently ready the other hydridizing articles in the science news bit. whew, my brain is perspiring

[Bas Pels]

reading the title, I thought the topic relates to fish breeding to produce fish te be eaten

I think growing hybrids might in such a case have advantages if the fish are sterile: escaped fish will not breed, and thus not destroy wild populations. This makes it possible to do a lot of fish growing in very sensitive areas where pure sprecies would better not be introduced

However, in our hobby hybrids would, if everyone were to agree with me on this point, be banned

[L number Banana]

Hi Bas Pels,

I should have thought of that when I titled it, sorry. I'll try to change it and see if that works.

Here in Canada they've done lots of hybridizing for food fish and of course they escape. Even the inland breeding tanks that were approved by the Ministry flooded once and released all the fry into the wild

I agree with banning but how to get the stores onboard?? Tough one.

Tana

[racoll]

Some reading for you...

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/p ... ?news=1687

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/p ... blogid=184

On top of this, of course you have the flowerhorns, the parrot cichlids, the malawi cichlids, the Clarias x Heterobranchus, and the pimelodid crosses -

Phractocephalus sp_hybrid(1)

,

Phractocephalus sp_hybrid(2)

,

Phractocephalus sp_hybrid(3)

,

Pseudoplatystoma sp_hybrid(2)

,

Pseudoplatystoma sp_hybrid(1)

.

The list goes on...

Hybridisation is suspected in a great many other groups, but is just harder to find evidence, especially when introgression has occurred over many generations.

Would be nice to compile a list here of all species implicated of being hybridised in the trade.

[Psy]

I don't think it will destroy the hobby. I think the people buying RTCs for 55g tanks are doing a better job of it. Or the dyed or color injected fish. The hobby (worldwide, as far as I can tell) has never really been about pure species or biotopes. Its not an accident that aquarium fish are called "ornamental fish" as opposed to food fish.

Those of us with oak leaves, driftwood snags or more rocks than water are in the minority of fishkeepers. Many of us want to replicated wild habitats, but thats not very common. I got laughed at when I built a Fiddler Crab "biotope" by the LFS! NOTE: Salt marshes in your bedroom are not a great idea. They tend to smell unless you are very careful.

The subtle hybrids are the dangerous ones though. CA cichlids can be very similar, Herichthys cyanoguttatus vs Herichthys carpintis. Flowerhorns might be ornamental monstrocities, but I only get mad when you can't find a wild type Trimaculatus now, or can't confirm if your "Texas" is a cyanoguttatus or carpintis.

[L number Banana]

Hi Racoll,

I was just reading other goodies on that same site- thanks, that helps! Also I did find a list somewhere of the common injected/dyed etc species for beginners - like me- to watch out for. Just have to find it again ..no cats on the list though.

Thanks psy,
I guess I'm more worried about the regular hobbyist unwittingly passing on hybrid fish to someone who cares about the purity of a species. It's funny that people would flip out if you crossed two warblers and they could escape but with fish, it seems like yeah, whatever.

Fiddler Crab "biotope"

Wow, where's the pics?!

I was one of those people who bought a hybrid (maybe(?) at this point - need better pics) and I would have loved to breed it and pass it along. Yikes!

I did find a few code of ethics for fish stores regarding the dyed, fried and popped fish but nothing so far on making sure they're getting what they think they are. Found an interesting bit about a reef fish buyer refusing to carry fish that have been obtained via cyanide plunks. It's repeated right on top of their stock page. Hope they have success making sure.
Thanks,
I'll have to look up those fish you mentioned..

[racoll]

I think if you explained to people the problems hybrids cause, they would agree and prefer to buy natural species.

I don't think there is actually much of a demand for hybrid fishes per se, its just that they don't know any better, and buy whatever they like the look of in the store.

I guess it is up to us in our small way to educate people.

[panaque]

Most of the colourful platys and swordtails that fill many tanks in most shops are hybrids of various Xiphophorus spp.They are not my cup of tea but I think it is these cheap, brightly coloured, easy to keep, easy to breed little fish that get a lot of beginners hooked on fishkeeping who might then move on to an interest in 'real' fish.

[racoll]

Most of the colourful platys and swordtails that fill many tanks in most shops are hybrids of various Xiphophorus spp

I'm aware of this, but is there any empirical evidence, or even some more information from the web?

[Bas Pels]

The problem is, only a few people would spend time on something everyone already knows

Further, in the old ages, breeders thought they would do better by keeping quiet about how they reached a certain result. Therefore, no 'recepies' for making red swortails have ever been published, en why 'waste' precious research money on something we already know (such as a decent DNA search of a Xiphophorus hybrid strain)?

[OldMan]

As Panaque stated, there are many lovely fish that are the result of hybridizing programs. Almost any swordtail, molly or platy that you see in a shop is a hybrid fish. These fish are the bread and butter fish of the pet shops so I doubt you will see them signing up to refuse to carry hybrids. On the other hand, it can be a daunting task to find a wild type platy or swordtail anywhere. I happen to have some wild type swordtails but I got them through a fish club connection, not a pet shop. I was at a recent club auction and saw another species of wild type swordtails but don't have room in my tanks to take in a second swordtail without the threat of them hybridizing.
There are at least 2 kinds of people who keep fish. There are those who want to have fish that reflect the wild animals that exist and enjoy them for what they are and there are those that view the fish they have as decorations. Those who view their fish as decoration are in the majority and are more than happy to buy any fish that gives the colors and fancy fins. Those fish are often the result of hybridizing.

[panaque]

Xiphophorus hybrids have been used for cancer research for decades so quite a lot is known about them. See Fig 2 in this for example.

[racoll]

Xiphophorus hybrids have been used for cancer research for decades so quite a lot is known about them. See Fig 2 in this for example.

Thanks for that.

I wonder if there are any articles in either PFK, TFH or one of the German magazines on this subject?

They would be a good source of at least anecdotal evidence.

Other bread and butter tropicals are also believed to be hybrids, such as discus, angelfish and tiger barbs. The trouble is finding a source that presents evidence, rather than just "it is so because it is".

[L number Banana]

Morning guys,
Thanks for all the input. I found an interesting link for a sailfin molly hybrids here:http://www.goliadfarms.com/pages/produc ... retail.htm

The slant of the article will be helping regular people keep 'little jimmy's' tank eco-friendly, very general, more like a women's mag Did You Know? type thing. Just to point out that serious keepers help keep rare species like Oldman and the general public can simply ask a few good questions when buying their setup to help them judge what kind of store they're in. Like,"What do you think of those glowing fish?" If they're thrilled about the new fish, that would tell me that that don't know what's happened to the dye injected fish or they don't care. This person or store probably couldn't care less about selling hybrids either. The hybrid part will point out the possible dangers to natural species using something like tigers or a more familiar species as examples. I don't know if some of those rare african cichlids can ever be reintroduced but they said the condor and bald eagle would never be...ha

I think that Matt Clarke gentleman at PFK wrote an article about hybrids for a general audience. I'll have to register to view it.

As for the bread and butter of a fish store, as things are changing in the new treehugger economy, it may do the shop well if their angle is, "We don't sell genetic monsters" People are so terrified of GMO's right? I know it would suck me in

The cancer research that Panaque mentioned can be a good thing too, if the rainforest rallying cry is saving it because there may be 'useful tools' in the flora and fauna so be it - that includes all the fish too. They're using mollies to control malaria somewhere but I need to find the exact info before I can mention that. What's that doing to the natural population of fish? I'll look at the DFID research4developement site to see if I can find that.

There are at least 2 kinds of people who keep fish

Maybe my little article will make a few people become a third kind - people who just want the pretty fish but don't want to give their money to people who do nasty things to the fish. Like people who want the latest fashion but are conscious of sweat shops? The crow only dropped one little pebble at a time into the bucket.

Thanks again!

[apistomaster]

Myron Gordon and Joanne Norton published most of the "recipes" used to obtain the various Xiphophorus hybrids so there really aren't many secrets with regard to this group.
Obtaining pure bred wild species from the native ranges is now quite difficult as aquarium strains have been introduced through much of this genus range.

The hybridization of other fish intended for biological control of various pest species has been an abysmal failure as most of the hybrids did eventually begin to reproduce and produce fertile progeny. In turn, these hybrids became pests in themselves. Asian Grass carp being one of the more notorious examples. They may not be true hybrids but rather triploids.

[L number Banana]

Hi apistomaster,

Something you said actually gives me a bit of hope in this area. Just the word 'Triploid' made me think of the horticulture industry and how many people are going wild to find the original strains of certain plants. Heirloom plant collecting is gaining a huge following. Maybe heirloom fish are next

[apistomaster]

It is that line of thought that makes me work on breeding wild caught Discus as a pet project while I breed domestics for the pet shops.