Newbee - please help

[roo]

Hi

I'm completely new to Tropical fish keeping and could do with some help please. I have two little people who will be very sad if all the fish die as soon as we put them in the tank.

We are planing to buy a Fluval Roma 200 or a Juwel Rio 180 – I haven't found out if one is better than the other – advice welcome. We are hoping to be able to use the equipment that comes with the tank but think we may need an extra external filter as well – read on.

We want to stock the tank with catfish and Malawi Cichlids. The reason behind this is that my son really likes catfish – he wanted to put a catfish in our pond! I have done some research a found Malawi Cichlids go well with catfish. Is this too ambitious for a beginner?

I have also read that we need to stock the tank well so to avoid aggressive behaviour from the Cichlids. Hence why I think I may need an external filter – though I'd prefer to avoid this if possible.

Can we have a mixture of catfish – leopard, bristle nose and clown – just standard species nothing specialised. If so how many of each and what order should we introduce to the tank. We will be buying mostly small ones so the grow into the tank.

Also if poss can someone recommend how many Cichlids would be enough so they don't fight but we can maybe avoid an external filter. We will hopefully buy the cichlids all together from an existing community in a shop so they have all been together for a while anyway.

All suggestions welcome – if I'm totally off the mark regarding my expectations of my tank please push me in the right direction though I've sort of got my heart set on catfish and cichlids now but there no point if they all die after a couple of weeks or start eating each other in the night!

Thanks

Ruth

[Richard B]

Welcome to Planet catfish

Starting off can be as easy as pie....as long as plenty of research is done in advance.

What do you mean by leopard & clown catfish??? These common names could apply to many different species with many different requirements.

Extra filtration is never a bad thing although this won't lessen aggression of malawi cichlids - intelligent decor & stocking will do.

generally malawi cichlids are a poor mix with most catfish although a few species go with them extremely well, most notably the rift lake synos.

This mix can be done by a beginner but it is not what i would suggest.

Firstly are the catfish the main priority, if so which species are they? Or are cichlids the priority? When we know which it is then we can build from there.

[MatsP]

Ruth,

Welcome to Planet Catfish, first of all.

I doubt there is a whole lot of difference between the Fluval and Juwel offerings. Both come with internal filters - neither of which are fantastic products, but adequate as beginner setups. The juwel filter is fixed in the tank - it can be removed, but it involves a sharp knife with a long and thin blade - that may be a good thing or a bad thing - I have had a couple of Fluval filters, and whilst it's not hard to remove the filter, it's a nuisance trying to hook it back onto the little holder. In the case of the Juwel filter, you pull out a "basket" holding the filter sponges, but the filter housing itself stays in the tank. As long as it's easy to reach the right-hand corner of the tank, it's quite easy.

All this about internal filters. Let me now plug the external filter: They are great. First of all, they last a lot longer between cleanings - on my RIO400 tank, I have cleaned one of the two external filters once this year [I'm no longer using the internal filter, as the pump gave up, and it was about half an external filter to get a new pump]. Second, they add (a small amount of) water to the total tank volume, which is never a bad thing. Tip: I use all my external filters WITHOUT a spray-bar - just the return hose and the "hook"/"bend" straight into the tank - it makes for more concentrated flow, and less problems with clogged spray-bar holes. I've used Eheim and TetraTec filters - I have three of each brand, and both are good - the TetraTec are, in my opinion, very good value for money.

Both are a good starting tank-size (and despite having different numbers describing the tanks, they are almost identical volume), because being fairly large, it tends to stay stable better than the usual starter tanks that only hold 50 liters or less.

Malawi Cichlids are a subject I don't know VERY much about (I have a tank with a group of them, but I inherited them from a friend of a friend who was giving up the aquarium, so I didn't have much say in what they are etc). But you do need a decent group of them. I'd say a group of at least 8 of the same or similar species (it's actually best to keep just one species unless you really know what you are doing - in case they breed, at least you know for sure that you haven't got "mutts" from mixed parents - that's not a good thing).

Unfortunately, Malawis (and Tanganyika) cichlids are pretty tough on other fish - they do not "mix well" with others.

Catfish that go well with Malawis are obviously those from Lake Malawi - which is a pitiful small number of fish that you are likely to find in the shops - in fact, I'd say it's near on zero, since out of five fishes, three grow far too big for a home aquarium (around 1m in length) and the remaining two are very rare to see in the trade. You MAY be able to find

Synodontis njassae

if you look hard, but it will be prohibitly expensive if it's a genuine one [My guess is over £100 for a juvenile fish around 2-4" in size - but that is a guess], and you do not really want a "fake", do you?

The next candidates are from Lake Tanganyika - there are 28 species in that list. Some aren't very suitable for home aquaria again, but most are not excessively large.

Synodontis lucipinnis

(Usually under the label of

Synodontis petricola

(they look almost identical to the untrained eye - and that includes me, but it's almost always S. lucipinnis).

Phyllonemus typus

is also available now and again - and a very interesting fish that is too, as the parent's care for their fry by mouthbrooding, much like the Malawi Cichlids usually do.

Other

Synodontis

species are possible, but they are (like the South American below) not really supposed to live in such high pH water.

Finally, there are some South American catfish that can cope with living in a Malawi setup - the prime example is the common bristlenose

Ancistrus cf_cirrhosus

. They are also easy to find and do not mind the hard water. Other fish that will work are the larger common plecos, but I would stay away from that, as it will grow too big for your tank.

Unfortunately, most other South American catfish are unsuitable for a Malawi setup, as the cichlids are more agressive than their South American counter-parts. Aside from that, the water conditions for most of South America is soft, acidic water. Lake Malawi is hard and quite alkaline - even harder and more alkaline than tap-water from South of England. Whilst it's possible to acclimatise fish to harder (or softer) water than their natural habitat, it's often best to avoid putting fish at the opposite end of the spectrum compared to where they naturally belong.

I'm supposing that by Clown you probably mean

Panaque maccus

, and whilst they are robust, hardy little fish, I personally don't beleive they belong in a Malawi tank - and most people tend to avoid wood in a Malawi setup, as it lowers the pH, and it's desirable to keep the pH high in the Malawi setup. The clown pleco needs wood as part of it's diet.

Not sure what a "leopard" is - there are at least half a dozen common names that contain "leopard" - but I would guess

Corydoras trilineatus

is the most likely - that will definitely not work - you will quite possibly end up with a blind and finless corydoras in need of euthenasia. I'm not saying that no one has ever succeeded in keeping the two kinds together, just that there are at least 10 examples of it NOT working for every example of it working.

When choosing fish, there are a few things to consider:
1. Will the fish grow too large for my tank - if so, it's probably best not to buy it until a big enough tank is available.
2. Is the temperature in my tank suitable for this fish?
3. Is the pH/hardness in my tank suitable for this fish?
4. Will my fish eat this one or will it eat any of my current fish?

On a personal note, do you mind adding a bit more detail to "Surrey" in your location - on the one hand, not everyone on this quite international forum will know where Surrey is, so adding England will help those who are from other countries get a better idea of where you are from. And I personally would like to know if you live close-by or further away, so adding which town you live in [or add "near Guildford" for example, if you feel that revealing a small village name is giving away too much about you as a person].

Finally, I see Richard has replied a bit shorter and more succinct than my reply. But I think I have given some good information that is worth posting.

--
Mats

[Richard B]

Excellent info Mats - the clown catfish could also be S.Decora (?)

I think Njassae would be less than £100 but the key is finding a real one - I saw one for £30 the other day but it was actually an acanthomias which is quite differeent

[L number Banana]

Hi Ruth and Welcome to Planet Catfish

MatsP and Richard B,

Could Ruth do a set-up with

Synodontis multipunctata

? They seem readily available and live with cichlids. A very pretty fish leopard-spotted too. I don't know the cichlids species though. A cichlid forum would be able to give pointers for that I suppose. Too big for that tank? Also it seems a bit easier to make water higher ph than to keep it lower if that's not what comes out of the tap.

Just an idea, any thoughts?

[roo]

Hi Everyone

Thank you for the welcome and all your advise - my head is swimming!

I have to re read all your advise to get my head round it all but it looks like I have to start again with my ideas on fish keeping. But to start with I come to the following conclusions:

Firstly I have come to the conclusion I'll need an external filter - my birthday's coming up so i can get one without costing much!

Secondly I have to rethink my tank. Okay the catfish are the important bit. My son kick started all the aquarium interest when we went to the London Aquarium and he fell in love with all the catfish - don't worry we're not getting a redtailed catfish - though they are amazing. I like the catfish that have the same body shape as the redtailed - synodontis type with nice barbels but not too long - the ones with very long barbel look uncomfortable in a tank.

So I would really appreciate more of your help. mats, i like all the catfish in your thread. whixh ones live best together? I really want some algae eaters and some omnivores - can they live together?

Then there's the question whether there are any 'colourful' fish we can add. I like the malawi cichids cause they aren't too bright but do have a bit of colour they could add to tank. Is there something else that would be similar in interest - for those who can't appreciate the beauty of the catfish (my husband).

Sorry have to go - late for a birthday party.

Thanks Ruth

P.S. I'll update my location

[Richard B]

you certainly don't need to start again with your ideas

It appears we are suggesting you go for one of two options -

1) a rift lake set-up with rift cichlids, syno lucipinnis/multipunctata & some common bristlenose, or

2) a south american set-up with panaque maccus, bristlenose, maybe other loricariids, corydoras, & maybe some carefully chosen cichlids.

[MatsP]

A decent candidate for "looks a bit like Red Tail Catfish" would be

Pimelodus pictus

, which belongs to the same family as the red-tail, but only grows to a reasonable 6" or so. Almost everything else in that family grows between a bit too big and enormous, so best avoided - even if they are very pretty.

Synodontis, in general will mix with most other fish.

Also, if you want a bristlenose , you can have some of mine for free - after all, that's all I get if I give them to the shop. [this applies to anyone else too]. They are certainly the best algae eaters.

Regarding colourful fish: Aside from cichlids, there are a few other groups that show intersting colours. Rainbowfish are probably the most obvious choice - lots of colours [usually better colour when they get settled in a big tank than in the shop!] and not too difficult to get hold of - and they like hard water as we get out of the tap too. There are some interesting barbs and tetras as well - just stay away from tiger-barbs, they tend to nip other fish's fins, particularly if they aren't in a big enough group. All of these groups of fish are semi-shoaling fish, so best kept in a group of the same species, 5-6 at least - for smaller tetras, a bigger group is definitely. A common beginner mistake is to buy "one or two" of a lot of different fish. Particularly with shoaling fish, it works much better to have one larger group of one kind, than to have 3-4 groups of a few fish that feel lost without friends. Overall, rainbowfish, tetras and barbs are much more suitable for a community aquarium than cichlids - cichlids certainly have their strong features [e.g. interesting/"intelligent" behaviour, hardy, colourful (at least some of them)], but they are also limiting what else you can keep with them, as many things do not tolerate their agressive behaviour.

My tanks have, aside from catfish, Lemon Tetras, Black Neon Tetras, Columbian tetras, Bosemans Rainbows, Two different species of Earth-eater (a cichlid that probably will grow a bit too large for your proposed tank), and in my tank with

Synodontis flavitaeniata

I have some Barbus fasciolatus, African Banded Barbs (Blue-barred barbs).

Live-bearers, such as Mollies, Platies and guppies are easy to keep, relatively colorful and hardy (and like hard water too).

I think Richard has attached some spyware to my machine, and knows when I'm posting. He's making a good point, and I'm sorry if I've sort of side-tracked this off the original subject. And there are some South American cichlids that would work well with corys and plecos - such as Rams (Microgeophagus ramirezi or M. altispinosa) or Apistogramma species. They stay relatively small, and aren't overly agressive.

In summary, ALL aquariums need to have some plan as to:
1. A "main subject" species - not necessarily one species, it could be 100 neon tetras, or a single/pair of large fish.
2. Some suitable "companions" for the main species.
3. How to decorate the tank to suit the main species (and the companions).

You have to, at least to some extent, decide on #1 before you get to #2 and #3. As a beginner, expect to be drawn from one thing to another, and it's not unlikely that you get MTS - Multiple Tank Syndrom. I have 11 aquariums running, with about 1600 liters of water (not counting water in filtration and stored in preparation for water changes).

--
Mats

[roo]

Hi it's me again...hope i've not bored everyone silly with my newbee questioning.

I have now decided on a tank. I'm ordering a Juwel Rio 240 tomorrow. I can pick it up on Friday.

Its going to be furnished with live plants in the two far corners and across the back. I will lay gravel in these areas so the plants don't get uprooted and there is still circulation. I'm then going to cover the central part of the tank with fine sand for the whiptails. I'm going to create caves with terracota pots and ocean rock plus some bogwood.

I will then need to start the fishless cycling of the tank - must admit i wasn't really expecting it to take a couple of months to get the tank ready.

So more help if possible please.

If i cycle the tank with the pump and filter that comes with it will I need to go through the whole process again when I introduce a second external filter - I'm planning on running both together eventually - would it be less painful to run both from the start - I was thinking it would be easier to establish one filter and then introduce the other.

Can i use rain water from my garden water butt to fill the tank or move the 'down pipe' to a new container so that the water is fresher - the water runs off my shed at the bottom of the garden - used it to fill the pond.

also I have seen in a few shops that the cats need a mature tank - could you let me know what this means. I'm going on holiday in August for two weeks so I'm hoping to get the tank ready in the next 6 weeks and introduce some platies or tetras to stablise the tank and then leave it until I get back from holiday to put my cats in.

do cats like to be in pairs or threes (1male and 2females) or are they happy to be on their own. They grow so big there's not much room for anything else. I don't plan to breed the cats as I would have to give all my babies away or get another tank

I've got to do a length count on the cats i want cause i'm already running out of space! what ratio do you use.

i've read two versions

volume of tank - 1" to 1 gallon = 152cm of fully grown fish
footprint or surface area of tank - 121x41=4961/40 = 124cm of fish

depending on which system is used could give in another 28cm of fish

Planned setup

2 x Syondontis ? - 15cm ea
1 x Bristle nose - 12cm ea would like a pair if tank size will allow
2 x marbled whiptail or Sturisoma aureum or similar - 18cm ea

30 + 12 + 36 = 78cms

5 x Platies - 6cm
5 x Tetra - 5cm

30 + 25 = 55cms

all advise very welcome

thanks

ruth

[sidguppy]

First: skip that old silly rule of centimeters fish in a certain tanksize. it's obselete.
say, I'd like gentle wellbehaved eels.....then I can put in that tank maybe 4 African Rope Fish and they'll be happy as clams, despite the fact that according to the formula I have way too many fish.
Or I put in a pair of wildcaught Jewel Red Acara's from the Hemichromis frempongi species (a very colorful beauty)....then I SHOULD have room to spare!
believe me that anything added in there will be killed once the frempongi start getting kids.....

I can see you went for the community approach instead of the Malawi tank: good choice! Malawi tanks are active and colorful. but if you never kept a fish in the house before, not recommended.

stick to small catfish when starting out, with the exception of Sturisoma or other whiptails. basically a Sturisoma is still a small catfish, but it has a lot of tail.

Sturi's are great, easy to keep and visible too when you keep 2 things in mind: gentle tankmates (Malawi cichlids are a no go) and wood to chew on.
although it's not "officially" a wood-eater like the Clown Pleco, it makes a lot of difference
Sturisoma's (Twig Catfish) combine very well with Rineloricaria's (Whiptails). Sturisoma lives on the wood, the glass, the plants, while Rineloricaria is a sandsifter and usually sticks to the bottom.

don't add territorial fish like Bristlenose in with them. adult Bristlenoses are bad tempered bullies. good in a cichlid community, not so good if there are gentle peaceloving slowmoving whiptails around.
also: 2 or 3 Sturosoma's will keep that tank pristine, and without algae to graze the fish would starve.

skip the larger Syno's. large synodontis can be nasty and disruptive and also: 2 is a VERY BAD number in the Synodontis Universe, almost always it ends up with a buttkicker and a buttkickee.
the life of the latter is not a happy life.
and to put in 5 or 6 15 cm Syno's in that tanksize with Sturisoma's in there is not a good plan. start smaller.

if you like other catfishes next to Sturisoma's or Rineloricaria's you can't get better than going with a single Corydoras species and buy 5 or 6 or so.
almost all are similar sized and care is identical. there are many and they're for sale everywhere.
remember it's a shoaling fish

if you like Tetra's don't buy 5. buy 15 or so of a single species!

same goes for platy's; most livebearing fish are shoalers as well.

with 3 Sturisoma's (1M 2F), 2 Rineloricaria's (1M 1F), 6 Corydoras spp, 15 Hemigrammus or Hyphessobrycon or Moenkhausia spp and perhaps 8 Platy's you'll end up with a very nice tank.

the numbers might be big, but in a 240 liter tank this is no way over the top.

[roo]

Thank you sidguppy

'skip the larger Syno's. large synodontis can be nasty and disruptive and also: 2 is a VERY BAD number in the Synodontis Universe, almost always it ends up with a buttkicker and a buttkickee.'

Shows I haven't got a clue. I'm taking in as much advice as possible - hence the move away from maliwis - and the size of the tank! a month ago i was going to but a 55litre!!! but every step I take i nearly fall into another big pit. I nearly bought a pair of synodontis thinking they looked really nice together and they stayed together in the tank - i now think one was maybe trying to get away from the other but couldn't.

Well i bought my water testing kit today, de-chlorine solution (i read up that de-chlorinating tap water was best for newbees), a gravel cleaning tube syphon thingy and some Aqua sealant to stick my caves together.

still got to buy my sand and gravel - i thought bright pink cause i'm such a girlie ...NOT

[sidguppy]

flashy sand colors and fun stuff in the tank is all a matter of personal taste

but remember: that stuff distracts the viewer from the subtle beauty of the fish.......

a resting fully grown Sturisoma male looks much better when the backdrop is a bit of green, some wood, some sand; instead of pink and blue gravel, Elvis floatin in his plastic coffin and a wreck of the titanic.

forget the Russian script, i just googled it for the beauty of the picture:

[roo]

sorry - it was naughty of me to joke.
i'm sure that there are some very nice tanks with colourful gravel.
it's just not me. i'm going for a very plain natural setup and let the fish take centre stage

[racoll]

Hi Ruth. Welcome to Planet Catfish. You'll find people here are very knowledgeable and helpful.

I'm glad you are not thinking about the Malawi cichlids. Not for beginners if you ask me as they will not be forgiving with mistakes.

It is commendable that you are planning your tank thoroughly. Your patience will be rewarded with fewer problems and a better aquarium in the end.

Please read this fishkeeping basics article here about setting up your first tank. I think it will help a lot. There's a lot of info there, so might be worth printing it out.

I can only reiterate some of the points made already. I would limit your selection to no more than about five different species that occupy different niches (e.g. midwater, bottom dwelling etc). Tanks with a few of everything all mixed up never look very good in my opinion. The fish will behave more naturally in larger groups, and the display will have more impact.

I would get a large shoal of a midwater fish of your choice such as a barb, rasbora, danio, tetra or rainbow fish. My recommendation here would be the Odessa barb Puntius padamya. Click the link for info. Around 15 of these would be best.

Next, a group or pair of small peaceful cichlids. I would recommend the keyhole cichlid Cleithracara maronii or the Bolivian ram Mikrogeophagus altispinosus.

Now for the catfish! I would recommend a group of five peaceful, small

Synodontis

such as

Synodontis flavitaeniata

. These will be shy, but will eventually settle down if you make their tank as natural as possible, decorated like the "natural catfish aquarium" featured in the fishkeeping basics article. Try to avoid hybrid Synodontis. These won't be easy to spot but be patient, take some photos in the shop, post them here, and we'll tell you what they are.

The royal whiptails

Sturisoma aureum

would be great. Try to get tank bred juveniles; these will be cheaper and hardier.

Another tip to make your tank look good and natural, is to use a black plastic backing. You can get this from the aquarium shop.

Hope this helps

[roo]

Thanks Racoll

This website has indeed been such a help. I had so little idea on what I really needed when it came to keeping catfish. I know you can always ask staff in aquatics shops but it's so much nicer to get a wider variety of ideas and from people who keep rather than sell.

Anyway a really BIG thanks to everyone who has put added to this thread to guide me in the right direction. From the black PVC backing ... to the type of catfish and their companions ... to the numbers I should stock of each type and the type of tank and filters to buy. Thanks for the offer of bristle noses Mats but looks like I'm keeping them out of this tank - I have my eye on some of your Sturisoma aureum if you have another hatching - I'd pay for them.

I feel there so much more to learn as I get my tank and start setting it up but i do think i'm so much more ready than i was a week ago. I will post photos once i have it up and running and have my first cats introduced (not until 1st September when I'm back from my hols).

Thanks again

Ruth

[Richard B]

Excellent suggestions from Racol re: syno flavitaeniata - a stunning, peaceful tankmate that has seen it's price tumble in the last 10 years. MA Wheatley have some at a good price - i could get some for you & deliver to when i'm on my way to MatsP sometime soon(?) let me know!

[roo]

Hi Richard

Thanks for your offer re delivery from Wheatley but I'm headed that way as soon as I can - hopefully Thursday. Going fill my car up with petrol on the way home from work There's a certain marbled catfish that is drawing me there and now they have my syno flavitaeniata as well.

It's all coming together thanks to all of you.

Do you know if shops ever hold on to fish until a tank is ready e.g they accept a deposit and a bit extra for the up keep of the fish. If they have the marbled still i may have to risk getting them as soon as the tank is ready - still more than a month away . The others aren't going in until after my hols. But Wheatley sounds the place to go.

I have also found two MA very close to me where I'm going to buy my gravel, sand etc. MA Woking and MA Addlestone (which is pretty new) - no marbled whippys though - not that i could see - but they do hide. They did have Sturisoma aureum there but I now like the idea of homing a couple of Mats.

P.S. I read about your bristlenose having babies - how wonderful.

Ruth

[Richard B]

The marbled whiptails were bred by Racoll, so you are ulikely to see them unless he supplied them to someone (like wheatley, as he did) & jools has the parents now.

Lot's of shops will hold fish for you - just tell 'em your circumstances & ask. (particularly if you were gonna get a few of these & a few of those others type-of-thing).

MA branches are generally very good but some are better than others for cats, some are better for cichlids etc. I've not been to your 2 local branches but stocks vary & ood species are generally available from time to time. St Albans is worth a visit, as is Wembley, Derby, Northampton & Harlestone Heath. Other branches should not be ignored but the ones i've mentioned always seem to have something worth seeing.

If you get the chance i would reccommend Pier Aquatics in Wigan, & Wildwoods as (IMHO) the best 2 shops for cats in the UK. Others to perhaps visit sometime are Wholesale tropicals, Aqualife (wigan way) BAS, Wharf, sweet knowle, etc but there are so many good shops out there. there are a few reviews in "speak easy" to whet your appetitie

[MatsP]

I should have some Sturisoma ready for you in a few months - all the juveniles that are ready for delivery are sold. Or you can pick up a couple of mine from Lynchford Aquatics in North Camp, Farnborbough.

Oh, and I can thoroughly recommend the S. flaviataenata from Wheatley as well.

Just bear in mind that you probably should put a few new fish in the tank at a time.

--
Mats