Traffick in wild Hypancistrus

[apistomaster]

One of several S.A. countries banned the export of their Hypancistrus species, Brazil. Colombia has not and Venezuela doesn't wish to sell anything but illegal drugs and petroleum to the USA. In no country have Hypancistrus been declared endangered and they are not listed in CITES. Therefore it is not illegal to import, sell or buy any species. The vast majority of which have not even been scientifically described. This fact alone is some indication of how concerned the source countries are if they have not encouraged their own biologists to complete studying and describing the vast majority of species a priority. Many of these species have been well known and popular aquarium fish for the past 15 to 20 years in the hobby. Brazil is the only country that has made the collection and export of all Hypancistrus species illegal.

It is a fact that Hypancistrus happen to prefer rivers with sufficient elevation drop and run over solid bed rock which happen to be the same things geotechnical studies evaluate as good potential sites for the construction of hydroelectric dams. The energy generated will most benefit the heavy industries like mining, petroleum extraction, refining and some conglomerate agribusiness. In the history of modern harnessing rivers with great hydroelectric dam construction potential, the fisheries have never been given an equal say in the priorities or needs of a proposed hydro project. History proves that the rule is build now and worry about the lessor users of the resource later.

Some of our favorite ornamental tropical fish may be driven to extinctions at some point during or after these projects are constructed.
Only aquarists presently show any interest in captive breeding and species maintenance programs. These are the basic facts as I understand them and this is a more appropriate fora to discuss the issues arising from our desire to continue keeping and breeding the Hypancistrus species unless our moderators feel this thread of discussion is best moved to the S. American catfish (Plecos et al) category.

[Janne]

In no country have Hypancistrus been declared endangered and they are not listed in CITES. Therefore it is not illegal to import, sell or buy any species.

This is not an easy issue, to put any "fish" species on CITES from appendix 1-3 takes time often several years, does'nt matter if it's endangered or close to extinct. The only country in the world where it's illegal to import fish species that have a legal protection in their origin country is... USA.
All(most) other countries follow CITES strictly and have no laws that respect other countries efforts to protect fish species, but they do have when it comes to birds and mammals... a fish is not seen as an animal.

The vast majority of which have not even been scientifically described. This fact alone is some indication of how concerned the source countries are if they have not encouraged their own biologists to complete studying and describing the vast majority of species a priority.

They are working, the problem is not "lack of interest", they are concerned in Brazil... but even that they have more scientist's and researchers then any other south american country they are not many enough due to the heavy load of work putting on them due to all hydroelectric projects. Compared with all other countries in SA I would say that Brazil is the country that is most concerned about their nature resources. For example, if you read Colombias positive list of allowed fish species to be exported created of their own department for nature resources you will find many endemic species occur only in Brazil and Venezuela ??

One positive thing out from the ban in Brazil, Hypancistrus and many other genus will be allowed for export again within maybe half year or so... as soon they have finished their research, not all species but most of them... I would say that before the ban the laws that was ment to protect the biodiversity in Brazil didnt work so well or not at all... now it's much better. I dont defend all their projects going on that will have huge impacts on rivers in Brazil, but they are not soo bad even if not all is perfect.

Janne

[apistomaster]

Hi Janne,
Thank you for your constructive post. It was that type of discussion I hoped would be the substance of discussions on this subject.
I did not want us to personalize nor be too self righteous about things. I think it is fair game to discuss the ethics of disregarding one country's laws that are not honored by other countries. Any specie Brazil wishes to not be collected but manages to be removed from the country will be bought by someone in the world. It strikes me as being very much like dealing with global warming and greenhouse gas emissions. As some parts of the world strives to cap or reduce emissions another 2 coal fired power plants are built in the Peoples Republic of China each week. At the present rate, the PRC will produce as much emissions as all other countries in the world combined.
The questions of species preservation and global warming are not unrelated and raise similar moral and ethical issues.
One thing I don't think is very contoversial is that of species maintenance. I would like to see species allowed to survive in their native waters but I would also like to see that aquarium strains of desirable become established well enough so as to not have any incentive to put collecting pressure on them. That goal can only be realized when enough hobbyists breed sufficient numbers of the most popular species.
I think Brazil's restrictions caught many of us off guard. Wild imports were still cheap. Very cheap compared to the expense and difficulties of setting large scale captive breeding programs. But this is often the case when changes come too fast with too little warning. Not many were expecting such a deep worldwide recession and we supposedly had people whose expertise was in that field of human endeavor so a crunch in this aspect of the hobby may become the stimulus for establishing viable species maintenance programs.
We Hypancistrus spp enthusiasts ought to do our best to become self-sufficient if we want to pass on these species to future generations of fish keepers. It will also be nice when the species in the genus are properly described so we can get away from our ad hoc L-number system. It is harder to determine what is lost if it doesn't have a name.

[Lloydy]

Certainly an interesting read, even for a complete beginner to keeping fish like myself. I was surprised by Janne's comment about Brazil maybe lifting the ban on some species in the next year or 2. Is this confirmed or just rumour at the moment?

I like the idea of enthusiasts becoming self sufficient through breeding programs, however I think it needs large scale organised programs to be created to keep a constant supply of species available, not just individuals dotted here and there around the world. Partly because of the difficulty of breeding/raising some species and also that isolated breeders may create very small gene pools which might create inbreeding and the increased risk of mutations. Its hard enough telling some species apart, let along if they cross bred and create a whole new L- number!

Despite this, I still hope to breed my L333s and then hand these over to someone else so they can try, while I move on to a different species.

[Janne]

I was surprised by Janne's comment about Brazil maybe lifting the ban on some species in the next year or 2. Is this confirmed or just rumour at the moment?

If it was a rumour... I would not tell anyone ;)

Janne

[apistomaster]

The Ameican Killiefish Association, British Killiefish Association, Dutch and German Killiefish Associationa all maintain rare species and local variants of the same species taking great care to keep species and strains pure. It is the work of 1000's of individual breeders and the clubs all maintaining liaisons to ensure correctly identified fish are exchanged to members around the world. The fish are often given a collection codes to prevent undesirable hybrids even between the same nominal species because it has been demonstrated many times that the same nominal species from different locales often fail to breed successfully enough to survive when bred outside their particular location groups after several generations. It is more confusing than our ad hoc L-number system but this system has worked pretty well for many decades.

Something similar can be done with Brazilian Hypancistrus species should it come to pass that further wild imports are still restricted.
Hopefully, many of these species will be formally described which should reduce the chances of purebred species degenerating
into worthless mongrels. Larger fish wholesalers would be the most logical means of dispersing unrelated stock around the world bred by individuals in sufficient numbers and frequency to minimize any excessive inbreeding. Regional groups can do the same more locally.
We sucker mouth catfish breeders have not had the approximately 60 years head start that the world's Killiefish clubs have had but we ought to think about what our strategies should be like while we still have so many species already breeding in captivity.

It may not be a good idea to assume that exports will ever return to their former numbers and at prices so low that the majority of the fish end up as single trophy specimens disconnected from the larger captive breeding programs.
Having come this close to losing further access to new wild stock should be enough for us to try to become self-sufficient in the future.
Looking at the long run development plans for many new hydroelectric projects affecting most every river with geotechnically suitable sites, it does not favor ever returning to the halcyon days of cheap, beautiful Hypancistrus species availability and I say this as one with a fairly optimistic view of most species surviving these assaults on their habitats, albeit at lower population densities.
Turning fish with relatively slow replacement rates into commodities is part of the reason we were cut off from the source.
That is why I am trying to get interested parties with the ways and means of breeding these fish to try to begin to do it for higher purposes. We are fortunate that the Hypncistrus are not harder to breed than they already are. The difficulties have more to do with the commitment of time these fish require to raise and breed rather than being extremely difficult to almost impossible to breed as some fish are. Many of the popular and mostly wild caught imported SA Tetras would really be trouble if they were as rare, coveted and as expensive as some Hypancistrus are if our supplies were suddenly withdrawn.

[TwoTankAmin]

I am curious about a couple of things here. The first is a scientific/genetic question. In order to preserve any of the hypancistrus species solely in the hands of fishkeepers around the world, how many fish are needed to insure adequate genetic diversity? Furthermore, how can the diversity be established at the outset and controlled sufficiently?

The second question I have goes back the issues of export bans and the purchase by the people who would be participating in the program to preseve various species of wild fish illegally exported. I know I can buy a number of wild, export restricted Brazilian Hypans right now which have been removed recently from there. I also know I have had decent luck spawning the few I have had. I know Larry has had much greater success and others posting in this thread have as well. So what does one do? Buy illegal exports to try and spawn them or refuse to support the violation of another country's laws knowing the fish will end up in somebody's tank and perhaps a somebody who could care less?

While it is nice to think that Brazil may change its stance on things, if it doesn't, how will the capitve populations needed as the foundation of captive breeding programs/exchanges even become established in tanks?

To quote Vinnie Barbarino, "My brain hurts."

[Suckermouth]

The idea of sufficiency on captive bred Hypancistrus is something I was attracted to years ago, back when zebra plecs could be purchased somewhat affordably. Unfortunately, I was never had (and still do not have) the resources to start a breeding project on Hypancistrus.

The vast majority of which have not even been scientifically described. This fact alone is some indication of how concerned the source countries are if they have not encouraged their own biologists to complete studying and describing the vast majority of species a priority.

They are working, the problem is not "lack of interest", they are concerned in Brazil... but even that they have more scientist's and researchers then any other south american country they are not many enough due to the heavy load of work putting on them due to all hydroelectric projects.

Strange, I've been under the impression that scientific description of Brazilian loricariids could be faster than it's actually been. L018 has been known for quite a long time and hasn't been described, I find it unlikely that if fish like L018 are still being worked on that the new Hypancistrus types being found will be described any time soon. This is unfortunate, for reasons Larry has already delineated. I've also heard that it's difficult for non-Brazilian scientists to work on Brazilian fishes, which certainly doesn't help the science progress. This is probably part of Brazil having tight control on their biodiversity and natural resources.

One positive thing out from the ban in Brazil, Hypancistrus and many other genus will be allowed for export again within maybe half year or so... as soon they have finished their research, not all species but most of them... I would say that before the ban the laws that was ment to protect the biodiversity in Brazil didnt work so well or not at all... now it's much better. I dont defend all their projects going on that will have huge impacts on rivers in Brazil, but they are not soo bad even if not all is perfect.

That's interesting news. We should make a good effort to start breeding colonies with the lift on this ban. I will start saving, haha.

I am curious about a couple of things here. The first is a scientific/genetic question. In order to preserve any of the hypancistrus species solely in the hands of fishkeepers around the world, how many fish are needed to insure adequate genetic diversity? Furthermore, how can the diversity be established at the outset and controlled sufficiently?

The answer would likely be easier to answer if we had any idea of the genetic diversity actually present in each Hypancistrus species, but I've never heard of anyone publishing genetic work on Hypancistrus. My guess would be that you don't need too many Hypancistrus; if I'm not mistaken, Hypancistrus populations are rather small as many are endemic to small areas (can someone confirm that?). I'm sure some of the fish that are widely captive bred now can be traced back to just a few individuals, but I have no evidence to back that one up.

[TwoTankAmin]

I was just reading through the thread on wc zebras for sale but I really did not want to push the debate there any further and am posting again here. However, the appeared in that thread:

No one has yet said the fishes range is from this part of the Xingu to this other part. No one has yet said how many fishes may exist in the wild and no one even knows how many were being exported then or now.

A few weeks back Ingo was the guest on aquanet radio. He spoke at some length on zebras. One of the things he said was that zebras only lived in one section of the Xingu which was bordered at either end by some ferocious rapids. It is the action of these rapids which gets enough oxygen into the water for the zebras. He further said that on either side of the rapids was a stretch of much calmer and less well oxygenated water and that these effectively blocked zebras from being able to migrate to other potentially suitable areas in the river that might support them. He did also mention that somebody he knows and trusts had been diving in the zebras' habitat several years ago and that he had little trouble spotting them.

Beyond the issue of whether it is morally right or wrong etc. to be selling smuggled wild caughts, I have a bigger concern. Because zebras must be collected illegally and then smuggled out of Brazil, I would be amazed if, from the catching phase to the point the fish make it across the border, many have not died for each one that makes it out. And I would further bet they have been packed and transported in much less than ideal condition, so what shape are they in when they reach the point where they get legally sent out to the US and other countries? How many more may be lost along the way and soon after? There are simply no concrete, reliable numbers on the populations in the wild nor on how many die for each one that now makes it. So one can make a case for either side of this issue. personally, I worry about the potential for removing sufficient numbers to crash the wild populations before the dams or agricultural pollutants can get them.

As a zebra lover and one who does breed them, I tend to be overly concerned with this particular species and better informed on it than any other. But I am pretty sure there are must be other species in the Amazon river system that are in a similar predicament as zebras.

And my brain still hurts........

[MatsP]

I am curious about a couple of things here. The first is a scientific/genetic question. In order to preserve any of the hypancistrus species solely in the hands of fishkeepers around the world, how many fish are needed to insure adequate genetic diversity? Furthermore, how can the diversity be established at the outset and controlled sufficiently?

Assuming the breeding is done in a controlled manner, so that inbreeding is avoided, I'm sure there are plenty of H. zebra available in the world as it is - there are certainly many hundreds spread around the world.

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

The minimum number of unrelated human beings required to found a new population of human beings has been discussed in a variety of contexts. Interplanetary colonies or catastrophic events on earth have ranged from estimates as low as about 65 to as high as 3000 individuals. The minimum number required for maintaining captive populations of Brazilian Hypancistrus would likely be possible with a smaller number of individuals than it would take for human beings since the stakes are not as high.

On planetcatfish, we are mainly best informed about the status of H. zebra captive breeding populations in the western hemisphere. I see an interest and amount of activity going on in Singapore and the greater SE Asia which appears to at least equal the efforts in the west. So I think it is a conservative guess that there are well over 1000 breeders sustaining colonies of H. zebra across the world and that H. zebra is already well represented.

I mentioned the killiefish clubs' work as an example of the oldest of species maintenance groups. Most of their work began before the internet was what is has become now. Communications have become much easier so less formal organizations are probably less important with regard to Brazilian Hypancistrus species maintenance projects. Informal organization sustained by discussion groups and between members already possessing breeding populations already provide a beginning. The import of some wild fish seems likely as accidents as well as deliberate efforts so the founding population for a large number of species probably already exists to pull this off. Different groups of tank raised fish can be exchanged between other breeders enough to have sufficiently large numbers to retain good diversity within each species. Certainly much could be done to see to it that more species of more tank raised fish become more available than we have now.
If wild imports resume for some reason the tank raised fish still do have a many advantages over wild imports. Much lower losses during transportation and much more disease free specimens are produced in captive breeding.
Remember, we are only discussing one small aspect of the huge aquarium hobby which is of greatest interest to a minority of all fish keepers. All species maintenance projects have their flaws but are still better than having nothing like them at all.
Many popular aquarium fish species began with only a handful of specimens.

[Jools]

Beyond the issue of whether it is morally right or wrong etc. to be selling smuggled wild caughts, I have a bigger concern. Because zebras must be collected illegally and then smuggled out of Brazil, I would be amazed if, from the catching phase to the point the fish make it across the border, many have not died for each one that makes it out. And I would further bet they have been packed and transported in much less than ideal condition, so what shape are they in when they reach the point where they get legally sent out to the US and other countries?

This is a really good point and one that I've thought about. However, what we might find is that they're actually in no worse state. This is for two reasons, firstly, they're more valuable and less expendable. Sad but true, this means they'll be more looked after. Secondly, they'll be on a boat while transported, water changes will be better and more frequent than the traditional route via Altamira.

So, in truth, we don't really know if more or lost or not.

Jools

[apistomaster]

Because wild Discus are so expensive and popular, the collectors have learned how to minimize their losses despite the fact that good collecting areas containing more colorful fish have become more remote from the export centers. Fish as large as adult Discus are arguably a greater transport challenge than relatively small catfish.

[Jools]

The second question I have goes back the issues of export bans and the purchase by the people who would be participating in the program to preseve various species of wild fish illegally exported. I know I can buy a number of wild, export restricted Brazilian Hypans right now which have been removed recently from there. I also know I have had decent luck spawning the few I have had. I know Larry has had much greater success and others posting in this thread have as well. So what does one do? Buy illegal exports to try and spawn them or refuse to support the violation of another country's laws knowing the fish will end up in somebody's tank and perhaps a somebody who could care less?

I once wrote, "if the internet has adopted a catfish then it is this one". I have since put my crystal ball on eBay.

I know why your brain hurts. For me, this is the deepest question of all. These zebras we've seen illegally removed from Brazil but exported, imported and sold legally raise this specific point - they're never going back to the Xingu. So, what then? If we're all squeaky clean and ethical then no one buys them and they die in the importers tanks. Not good but also very unlikely.

What's more likely is they're bought, often singly to Joe Aquarist for his status symbol tanks that are otherwise bursting full of Asian arrowana, stingrays that live alone, stub nosed tigrinus in slow water, flowerhorns and veiltail oscars. I am being sarcastic folks, I've only ever met a few fishkeepers like this and they were all male, younger than 25 and wore quite a lot of black. Thankfully we grow out of it. I bought an albino oscar once, so don't accuse me of getting all high horsey - we all learn!

Perhaps the best thing to do is to lobby those selling these fish to sell them in groups of a certain size, maybe discount heavily on that basis. Make a buck, but do it just a bit more ethically? That then makes them a really expensive purchase and, hopefully, have a better chance of being bred.

Jools

[apistomaster]

I rather regret my choice of the subject title as can be read in my posts, my real interest is in aquarium species maintenance projects.
There were and still are some nice collections of different breeding Hypancistrus groups acquired well before the Brazilian export ban became an issue.

Now that Brazilian Hypancistrus species are no longer very cheap, as they were before the ban, I have my hopes that eventually more of these F1 Hypancistrus species will find their way to other breeders' tanks. Not all of the Hypancistrus are as striking as others but there are many who have or still are breeding species like L174, L262 and others. They are not intrinsically less desirable than many other better known species like L260 to name one.

I have made my share of potential customers upset with me because I have refused to sell them 1 or 2 specimens and only sell a minimum of six. This tends to screen out those who would only keep them as "trophies". Most who acquire six or more are those who hope to breed the fish.

[grokefish]

This is the very reason I started the breeding challenge thread to encourage people that may not have thought about/thought they could consider breeding catfish, of all kinds.
The Idea was to start off on something easy and over the years build up to more difficult and possibly on to the considered impossible.
Along the way a we could gather info for a database on how success was achieved for each species IN ONE PLACE.
Unfortunately I don't think the idea took off so well.
This I think was because of the time scale involved in breeding.
Because most people had young specimens (and even those with mature specimens) time was involved, which made the topic slowly disappear from the home page/Forum list of topics/out of peoples minds, so other than those that were involved from the beginning, people may have kept missing it and don't even know it is there.
I also didn't manage it very well as I have been very busy doing something else (funnily enough building a power station) I also didn't want to keep bumping it.

I think Planet catfish is the ideal place to instigate such a breeding system such as is being suggested, but a better more formal format than my thread would be the way to go.

I think one point that hasn't really been raised or I have missed it is, I couldn't care less for the availability of these species to fishkeepers, to be honest we don't deserve them. We are pretty much as guilty of raping the planet as the guys building the Chinese coal fired power stations.
What I care about, is now that we have FKD the planet up good and proper is that we do something in the way of damage limitation.
I also believe in natural selection and evolution, and basically the human race is not running at the same evolutionary rate as the rest of the natural world but faster. The strongest will survive (for a while) and the weaker species will become extinct.
I am not happy about this but do believe it.
Humans are just doing as nature intended, evolving.

All will come back into balance one day, we are terribly vain to think that our species could destroy the Earth or nature.
The Earth and nature will just wait until our parties over and then clean up the mess.

Matt

[MatsP]

Matt,

Jools is working on a "breeding registry" as part of the "My Cats" section. Unfortunately, these things take time (at least if you have someone who is doing a full days work and looking after a young baby as well as doing the work on the My Cats section).

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

Hi Matt,
While much of what you said about the effects of the human footprint on the planet is true, we are here for at least awhile for better or worse. Until we fish breeding hobbyists are erased with the rest of our fellow species, we may as well enjoy our time breeding fish or maybe catching and releasing wild trout on barbless flies or doing whatever else suits your fancy.

I'm sorry to say i am among those who have missed reading your thread. Topics are ephemeral on any forum and do get buried eventually.
Circumstances have arisen recently involving Brazilian Hypancistrus species which helps make this thread at least temporarily relevant.
We pleco enthusiasts have been making very remarkable progress with breeding even some of the largest species kept in aquariums, and not just with the plecos.
I certainly have been surprised at how much progress I have seen fellow members of the site have made in my moderately short time since becoming a registered member.

[grokefish]

Oh I agree Mats these things do take time, I wasn't suggesting otherwise, or criticizing Jools or Planet catfish he does an unbelievably good job. How in fact you find the time Jools amazes me.
I really am looking forward to it, and after I have finished destroying the world a bit more, I will be trying to dedicate more time myself to this general idea.
I was just making a suggestion and inputting to the general discussion.

What Larry is suggesting is very similar to what I believe is a solution to the power/energy problem. Micro generation is the way to go there, power coming from many privately owned sources rather than big nultinationals.
Many regular fishkeepers breeding these fish all over the world is a much more viable solution to the problem than a few big captive breeding sources.
Thats my opinion anyway, logistically it may be a nightmare.

Problem is when you've got idiots like the guy that lives next door to me burning sofas and tyres in their back garden every weekend you tend to see how useless the whole situation is.

Matt

[grokefish]

That is exactly what I am saying Larry, we may as well carry on keep removing fish from the wild because "Progress" is going to get them in the end anyway.
Not that I am saying breeding programs are pointless mind.

In my gloomy mind I can't help but picture a world where young scientists and kids in school will only be able to study most species in books/on computers/in zoos and other such places, because the planet will be covered in cows and sheep and other animals that are "usefull" to the human race and of course in fish tanks
With a bit of luck niether you or I will be around to see it.

That is all.

Matt

[Lloydy]

Well I am certainly interesting in doing my part.

I might be new to all this but since I am only 25, hopefully I will have many many years in which to breed plecs so my children and grandchildren can enjoy them as much as I do

[racoll]

we may as well carry on keep removing fish from the wild because "Progress" is going to get them in the end anyway.

Not sure if I agree with this Matt. I would rather IBAMA were given the support of the hobby. If Hypancistrus were overfished to the point of population collapse, and the dams were then scrapped, or the remaining populations unaffected, then this would be a huge shame to the hobby.

These dam projects are not a foregone conclusion, and a united voice might be the best way to raise the profile of the people and fauna of the area.

I may be proven wrong however, and I would be very sad if all this diversity were indeed lost from the wild forever, and subsequently lost from captivity due to fragmented and insufficient breeding projects. Perhaps then in hindsight, I would be more keen to have seen them all removed from the wild.

In the meantime, I would rather respect the professionals (IBAMA) to manage their country's resources.

[grokefish]

Even if the Dams don't occur now, which they almost certainly will, then they will happen sometime or something else will happen.
All that land not being exploited, no way, there will come a time when it will happen maybe not while I am on this planet but it is inevitable.
The only thing I can see stopping it from happening is if there are MASSIVE leaps in space travel, so we can plunder other planets instead.

Matt

[Janne]

Not sure if I agree with this Matt. I would rather IBAMA were given the support of the hobby. If Hypancistrus were overfished to the point of population collapse, and the dams were then scrapped, or the remaining populations unaffected, then this would be a huge shame to the hobby.

These dam projects are not a foregone conclusion, and a united voice might be the best way to raise the profile of the people and fauna of the area.

In the meantime, I would rather respect the professionals (IBAMA) to manage their country's resources.

Very well spoked, as long the trade and hobbyist's work against authorityies the worse it will be for the hobby in the long term. If they instead corperated the whole trade and hobby would been seen as much more serious.

The last weeks IBAMA have closed several companies here in Brazil for illegal trade of H. zebra and some forbidden stingray's like P14, people was arrested in Manaus, Altamira, Fortaleza and Sao Paulo. IBAMA is now travelling around checking every exporter within the ornamental trade for illegal species not on their positive list, if the illegal trade continues there will not be so much fishes from Brazil in the future... so I think they are doing a great work.

Even if the Dams don't occur now, which they almost certainly will, then they will happen sometime or something else will happen.
All that land not being exploited, no way, there will come a time when it will happen maybe not while I am on this planet but it is inevitable.
The only thing I can see stopping it from happening is if there are MASSIVE leaps in space travel, so we can plunder other planets instead.

Do you want to put all the animals on this planet in cage's? ;)

Janne

[apistomaster]

If history is the best predictor of the future then eventually the chances that most of the hydroelectric projects proposed throughout Amazonia will be constructed will come to pass. Outside protest is our right. The uses of the resources of Brazil is their sovereign right. Brazil is no more likely to take world opinion into consideration than does the USA. I do agree with Matt that the future looks bleak for more reasons than what Brazil does on the local level.

My position on captive breeding of as many Brazilian Hypancistrus spp is well known and was reiterated by racoll.
There are almost insurmountable obstacles in accumulating breeding colonies of less well known species which are largely existing as individual specimens scattered about the tanks of hobbyists around the world. Not being very easy to get a consensus over what a particular species a specimen is is another huge obstacle. Any effort to keep them breeding in "cages" is fraught with difficulties but is about our only option we have now.
Breed what we can and hope Brazil will allow export quotas of various species in the future is about our best hope.
I wish I had become interested in breeding these fish about 10 years ago instead of only 5.

[Janne]

If history is the best predictor of the future then eventually the chances that most of the hydroelectric projects proposed throughout Amazonia will be constructed will come to pass. Outside protest is our right. The uses of the resources of Brazil is their sovereign right. Brazil is no more likely to take world opinion into consideration than does the USA. I do agree with Matt that the future looks bleak for more reasons than what Brazil does on the local level.

Think positive, when people start to accept the predicted future they have already giving up... right?

My position on captive breeding of as many Brazilian Hypancistrus spp is well known and was reiterated by racoll.
There are almost insurmountable obstacles in accumulating breeding colonies of less well known species which are largely existing as individual specimens scattered about the tanks of hobbyists around the world. Not being very easy to get a consensus over what a particular species a specimen is is another huge obstacle. Any effort to keep them breeding in "cages" is fraught with difficulties but is about our only option we have now.

There are already a project like this saving the Hypancistrus species through a breeding program in the german spoked countries with Ingo Seidel as a front figure... you should make a global contact.

And I am in Brazil to work... not to be lacy ;)

Janne

[grokefish]

Janne,
You have missed the point of my post entirely.
I don't want to keep anything in cages or fishtanks really.
I often question the point/morality of keeping fish in tanks and am continuously on the edge of quitting.
I am not the problem here, niether is probably nearly everyone on this forum at least not the people posting in this thread.
Some facts:
The average person is stoopid- not nice but unfortunately true.
You will never be able to change this stoopidity- I would quite honestly class the majority of people in this category.

They may be Layers, doctors Judges, engineers, actors, writers, bakers... whatever, they just really are not getting the picture that the planet is finite, it is currently all that there is, we have a limit.
The planet will be stomped on by these ejits however much legislation, projects or whatever happens. I am not belittling any work you and other proactive people are carrying out.
I just feel that it is prolonging the inevitable.
The forrests will be cut down, the seas will be fished empty, the rivers will be dammed.
In words of that famous geezer:

Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow but soon...........

It is inevitable.

How else will the human race "progress" by living like hippies in self sustained villages?
Don't make me laugh, as long as humans have a greed for the "good life" expensive shit and such, which will be until we stop getting bombarded with shite on the telly (in other words forever) the "natural world" is doomed.

Who is gonna stop them eh?
Really who?
I'm intrigued.

Matt

[Janne]

Janne,
You have missed the point of my post entirely.
I don't want to keep anything in cages or fishtanks really.

I don't know if I missunderstod your point, I understand that you don't want to keep all animals in cages. My point was this; the message you bring to people is that nothing does'nt matter... we will destroy the nature entirely anyway. That is the same to tell all the people to not care at all because it's to late and there is no idea to think different. Ok, maybe it's but is that really very clever to bring such a message? Should we not even try to do something, would you not feel better as a human if you give it a try to make some changes as long there is possibilitys for changes? Nothing is to late until it's to late... and we have not reach that point yet.

Stupidity can be meassured in many different way's depending on values, circumstances in our lifes like poor and rich etc. but I do agree with you... that needs to be changed if this planet shall have a future but not through messages like "it does'nt matter" which make people only more "stoopidity".

Janne

[apistomaster]

Hi Janne,

It seems as if the work you are presently doing and your personal contact with Brazilians is giving you more reason to be optimistic than those of us who are so far removed from was is going on in Brazil and have much less insight on what the possibilities are for a brighter future for the Brazilian wildlife.
Most of us are basing our opinions on few facts and little current evidence originating from Brazil. Not much to go by. If the preservation of the Amazonian environment is of greater value to Brazilians than it has ever been in the USA that would be very good news, indeed.
They need only look to the North to see how devastating hydroelectric Dam construction to the fish, other species and the greater Amazonian ecosystem would be. We sure set a great example for them to compare and weigh the consequences before it is too late.

I live in the part of the USA where all the rivers in the Pacific Northwest have been dammed for cheap consumer hydroelectricity, cheap aluminum refining and the water irrigation demands of industrial agriculture interests have won out over the the preservation of historically huge runs of Salmonids and greatly reduced their various unique genetic populations. All this despite binding treaties with many Native American tribes and the promises made and broken by the US Army Corp of Engineers. The future of many species and unique races of Salmonids is presently in the hands of Federal District Judges. There is a movement to remove many of these hydroelectric dams being discussed both in these Federal District Courts and in the US Congress. Sounds pretty good so far. Sounds good until you find out that these "Dam Wars" and the opposing factions have been discussing and litigating these issues to death since before the construction of the last one was completed about 40 years ago. So far the greatest achievement has been to prevent the last two planned hydroelectric projects on the last free flowing sections of the Snake River before they began. These (31)! dams are all on the Columbia River System and it's two largest tributaries, the Snake and Clear Water Rivers. Major rivers each in their own right. The wild fish were not driven to extinction as promised(for the most part) but continue to exist at less than 10% of their historic, pre-hydroelectric dam, pre-hatchery supplemented runs, original levels. We now protect the native fish. Those that survive must be released by sports fishermen. Those caught under the Treaty Rights of the Native American tribes are legally harvested.

[Jon]

to be quite honest, i would much prefer a large revamp of the brazilian electrical grid such that more people can gain access to electricity with less hassle and at a lower cost, than scrap this just to save a few good looking fish. not sure if this is what this topic addresses, but oh well, right?