L52--likes current or no?

[Taratron]

I have a chance to get some L52 for very cheap, and am sorely tempted! That said, right now my only 'open' tank is a 20 gallon with oil cats (centro perugaie) and the current is pretty high. Would the L52s be content in such a tank with multiple powerheads and driftwood?

[MatsP]

I'd say they'll love that.

Here's why I think so:
The body is very flat - it's typical for FAST flowing fish - we have several examples of this where the fish come from high flow areas:

Ancistrus ranunculus

Lasiancistrus

just to give a couple of examples. The body shape is very "flow-shaped" - they are adapted to high flowing water.

The ones I have are definitely liking the bits of wood that I have in my tank. Bearing in mind that I've only kept them for two weeks by this evening...

How big are they, and what price are they being offered at?

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Mats

[Shane]

The body shape is very "flow-shaped" - they are adapted to high flowing water.

I understand Mats' logic, but it has lead him to a conclusion that is the exact opposite of this animal's habitat and needs. L 52 is collected alongside Discus and Uaru, not exactly fishes that do well in high currents. The body shape is flat as it primarily dwells on the sandy substrate living a life more akin to that of a Rineloricaria than a Chaetostoma. The broad mouth and teeth are used to sift sand for food, not to provide stability in fast waters or scrape algae from rocks. The color pattern hides it among sunlight rippling on the white sand while the black and white coloration is typical of a fish from black waters.

An ideal tank would have a large light colored sand substrate broken up by a few large well rounded stones and pieces of driftwood. Water chemistry and temps would be as for wild Discus.

You say there is a pretty high current in the tank but do not elaborate. How much water movement is there?
-Shane

[MatsP]

Thanks for correcting me - I do not mind that the least bit, it's part of learning... [And one reason I dislike giving advice in PM's - no one else to check up if I'm giving good/bad advice!]

Do they dig themselves into the sand as well (Like Pseudohemiodon and such) or just lay on top of the substrate? I have seen mine lay on the sand in the tank, and also appear to like sitting under both rocks and wood.

I don't percieve Tatia as a "lives in high current" either, but I'm not surprised if I'm getting corrected there too.

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mats

[Taratron]

Tank is 20 gallons, with two powerheads, one rated at 1600 gph, another at 1800, and one sponge filter. Is that considered high or medium flow?

Fish are being offered at $10, wild caught, in captivity for 3 months.

I read that the tatias need high current to get them into breeding mode.

[MatsP]

1600 + 1800 gph = 3400 gph / 20 g = 170x turnover - are you SURE that your power-heads are not in "liter per hour" rather than gallon per hour (that would make a turnover of 44x, which is still A LOT, but not quite so much like a whirlpool). I've got an Eheim Compact+ 3000 is not VERY large, but it does about 800 gph and it's still a good 5" x 3" x 4", not counting the bits that stick out to attach it. Two pumps that are TWICE that capacity would be pretty large indeed, and would probably take up a majority of the space in a 20g tank.

Edit: I should add that my tank with L052 has about 2200 lph pumps on 300 liter volume, which makes about 8x turnover, so your 20g tank would have about 7x more turnover than my tank - which is in the middle of the range for my tanks - my fastest flowing tank is probably about 20x.

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Mats

[Taratron]

Oops, the 1800 is l/h, not g/h.

[MatsP]

And the 1600 gph pump is really that? It's a HUGE pump on a fairly small tank - 32x turnover on it's own - that's a whirlpool to me.

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Mats

[Taratron]

Man, maybe I need to skip the plecos and get to an eye doctor! That one as well is a l/h. I'm not used to Azoo pumps, more the Marineland where if memory serves, they're all in gallons per hour.

I'd say it's too early for this but it's almost 10.

edit: that said, is the current too strong if they need a discus like tank? Hmm, I might need to set up something else then if they want slow water...

[2wheelsx2]

Shane's description of the L052 is exactly my experience. I have fairly high flow in my 125 gallon (FX5, Eheim 2028, Koralia 1 and Koralia 2) and my L052's lay around only in the eddies and never in the current, unlike my L200 and L128's. Those seem to like the higher current much more.

Don't know if it's the correct interpretation, but that's just one observation in my particular instance.

[MatsP]

I think they can handle reasonable current - 10-20x range, but I wouldn't put them through a 44x turnover rate. I don't really believe the Tatia need THAT much either. Take either of the powerheads out, and I think you will get a decent turnover that is suitable for both the Tatia and the Dekeyseria - especially if you arrange the tank so that some areas have a bit more current and others have less [which is usually not that hard, really].

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Mats

[apistomaster]

I, keep Discus in tanks with a nominal 10 to 12 times their aquarium volume per hour and have for many years. Less in breeding tanks, though. It isn't so much the volume of the flow but how it is returned. I use split flows coming from opposite ends, each split further to top and bottom outlets and usually deflected off tank sides or pieces of wood so the return flows tend to be diffused over wide areas and counteracting directions help neutralize directionality. Sometimes Discus will nose up to an area with a strong flow almost like a hamster runs on it's exercise wheel.

[Taratron]

Thanks for the advoce, guys. I think I'll yank one powerhead. And perhaps move the tatia to my 90--it seems to have settled okay.

[Carp37]

I'd thought along the same lines as Mats on this one- you live and learn! I had a colleague trying to breed these last year, and I advised him to add an extra powerhead! Poor little mites- no wonder they never bred.

The CateLog entry for

Dekeyseria brachyura

states that "As you may surmise from its flattened body shape, this fish prefers good water current. Well oxygenated but not too cool water is also advantageous"- is this an error or is it really from a greatly different habitat to L052?

[Shane]

"As you may surmise from its flattened body shape, this fish prefers good water current. Well oxygenated but not too cool water is also advantageous"-

Yes, that entry is an error and not descriptive of the upper Rio Negro and Casiquiare canal where this fish comes from. The Casiquiare is not altogether sluggish and can actually move pretty good during the rainy season, but is nothing compared to a "typical" fast water environment like a Chaetostoma hill stream that can knock your legs out from under you.

Some nice photos of the Atabapo (L 52's home) and Casiquiare here. Should give some nice biotope ideas.
http://www.jandungel.com/en/photo/start
-Shane

[MatsP]

I have updated the D. brachyura data sheet (Jools to approval pending, but I'm sure that's a no brainer to Jools).

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Mats

[Taratron]

Got 6 of these guys on order now, and managed to free a 20 gallon up for them (and a few stray bristlenose fry whom I can't catch, and assassin snails). The seller however mentioned post auction that the pH is set for them very low, 6.8 or so. My water is 8.0, so filling much of the tank with driftwood, will that be okay for them?

[Shane]

My water is 8.0, so filling much of the tank with driftwood, will that be okay for them?

I would not do that. You need to think of keeping wild Discus when you keep these fish. pH below neutral, warm water, and very, very soft. They do not last long typically outside these parameters. I would also go larger than a 20 long. A 40 breeder, or other tank with a large substrate area, is ideal. Long term maintenance, and breeding, will require RO water changes unless you are lucky enough to have nice soft water from the tap.
-Shane

[Taratron]

Thanks Shane. I'm going to speak with the seller.

[MatsP]

Just to clarify what Shane is saying: If you have hard, alkaline tap-water, no sensible amounts of driftwood or peat will counteract the pH "pull" of the tap-water. It would be like trying to use feathers to counter big lumps of lead on a balance scale - whilst theoretically possible, it quickly turns unpractical. The acid available in wood and peat is fairly weak.

The only real practical solution is to use RO water or other low mineral water.

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Mats

[hotplecogirl]

i have two groups of these.First group is in a faster flowing current in a 450 gallon tank,they seem to hang in the area with the most current.My other group is in a more natural setting,light colored gravel/sand,slow current.It really looks like the first group is happier with the current.

[MatsP]

How much current (turnover rate in "times the tank volume per hour") is there in the 450 gal tank? To match the turnover of Taratrons 44x on a 450 gal tank, you would need 20000 gph - that is a HUGE amount, requiring a number of large pumps.

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Mats

[hotplecogirl]

Well i have a strong current but i am sure it is not that strong.I have three fx5's for starters that adds up to a bunch.

[MatsP]

Well i have a strong current but i am sure it is not that strong.I have three fx5's for starters that adds up to a bunch.

Hmm, yes, about 900 gph per filter - a turnover rate of 2x, which means that you have a turnover rate of about 6x, which is not what I'd call high. To get something similar to what Taratron has, you'd need about 20 FX5 filters...

Nearly all my tanks turnover between 8 and 20 times.

--
Mats