L104-what to do to suit them (details in thread)

[DJ-don]

Hey guys
if you read my what is my catfish thread on the identification on L134 (turning out to be L104)
I am thinking a colony of 6 from a friend
I don't know the gender but he has 12 I can choose from

he is giving them to me for free to see if I can breed them

so anyway
the only tank I put them in is my Fluval vicenza 180 tank with fluval 204 canister filter
it has
2xL397 4cm both
2xPeppermint Ancistrus 1 is 7-8cm other is 4 cm
and 1 kribensis

here is a photo of the tank
I would say its medium-ly planted and it has some Malaysian driftwood and a big piece of wood which I have no idea what it is but all my plecs luv it


Should I add more wood into the tank?
Should I reposition the slate caves?

I was thinking of adding another filter maybe another of the same fluval 204 canister to make the flow about 1200L/hrs
or should I increase the flow to a high rate like in the breeding

Panaque maccus

article

[racoll]

Should I add more wood into the tank?

You should have 1000 times more wood than that in there for a

Panaque maccus

breeding project.

You should stack it from floor to ceiling with branch-like pieces. I'm not joking - this is their natural habitat in the wild, and their food. They will fight to death over that one piece of wood. You need lots more to stop serious squabbling.

I would also ditch the gravel. That gravel is only going to hold sawdust and possibly go stagnant. Replace with silver sand.

The plants should go too, as they are no part of a

Panaque

habitat, and will probably die anyway. The Java fern will be okay though, as will any Anubias. You'll want to dim the lights right down too, as you want those fish feeding 24/7.

I was thinking of adding another filter maybe another of the same fluval 204 canister to make the flow about 1200L/hrs

Yes. Heavy filtration is a necessity in a Panaque tank.

I would also move the other

Panaque sp(l397)

, as 8 Panaque of two different species in a 180L might be too many.

P.S. I would be astonished if they were L397 in Oz. Got any photos?

[MatsP]

I believe they are correct ID - they apparently came from user Brengun, aka Brenda Irwin who has 3 pictures in the Cat-eLog:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/co ... or_id=1177

If they are incorrect, then we need to fix up the Cat-eLog.

--
Mats

[DJ-don]

ok thanks for the reply racoll
and yes they are L397 because i got the from brenda (brengun)

i only started to think about breeding these when tthe person apprpoached me about breeding these if i can

i really dont want to remove the gravel, because i never tried it before and it even though it will hold alot of waste i am willing to go the extra mile to clean this tank atmost twice a week with vacuuming. and plus i have no idea where i can get quality sand used in aquariums


would it be okay to use the Fluval 204 and get a eheim pro 200 canister filter? or can i get a tonne of internal filters
with the eheim, the filteration should go to 1200L/Hr
what should the minimum flow rate be?
i find that bigger pieces of wood tend to go cheaper than bulk buys of smaller ones-but howwould i vaccum the tank with so much wood?
or should i just get a smaller amount of L104's?

the way im dimming the light is by getting duckweed but im guessing thats not part of the habitat too

or should i just get another tank? the only ones i could get is a 2footer
(it might be hard to get a tank because my parents already are about to explode because this is my 4th tank)

[nvcichlids]

i really dont want to remove the gravel, because i never tried it before and it even though it will hold alot of waste i am willing to go the extra mile to clean this tank atmost twice a week with vacuuming. and plus i have no idea where i can get quality sand used in aquariums



i find that bigger pieces of wood tend to go cheaper than bulk buys of smaller ones-but howwould i vaccum the tank with so much wood?


or should i just get another tank? the only ones i could get is a 2footer

I use just about any sand I find. I actually prefer the sand from one of my local rivers because it is much more natural than any I can buy.

As to the too much wood, that is why the sand is better than the gravel. The gravel would back up WAY to fast with debris where as it will sit ontop of the sand and make the notice of vaccuming that much more easier. I like heavily wooded tanks. I also have been testing my flourescent lights with "light" covers. They change the color of the light, which isn't natural, but allows the fish to be more active all day. I notice the blue enhansement and the red seem to work awesomely. Might be something worth looking into.

A new tank is always a ++ in any fishkeepers book. If you have the time, space, money, and the floors to support another, go for it! My floors in my apartment I feel are close to their limits as it is, which is why I have my tanks spread out amongst several locations at the momment.

[krazyGeoff]

Hi DJ,
Here are some panaque tanks:
100x60x45(tall), filtration 2xFluval 304 + tunze 6045 for circulation, flow rate 6,500 l/hr:
This tank has 7 fish and requires 30% water change (via gravel vacume) weekly and filter(s) cleaned monthly.
First pic without flash, second pic is with the flash and you can see some of the inhabitants.




2nd tank is 122x45x45, filtration fluval 404 + tunze 6045 for circulation, flow rate 5,800 l/hr:
This tank is a functional breeding tank of L002.
Contains 6 L002 and 2 L204 (just till I get another tank prepared for them)
This tank requires 3x 30% water change (via gravel vacume) every 2 weeks and filter(s) cleaned monthly.


This photo shows female L002 (right of centre), male L204 (centre), L002 fry (Face sticking out to left of small cave under knot in wood, and another on left hand side at end of wood, beside slate cave)


None of these tanks have a sand substrate, as you can see.
These fish are messy (panaque) and so you need a lot of surface area, and a lot of cleaning. It is one thing to keep them alive, and quite another to keep them happy enough to breed.
(The last photo in your other post was a male btw)
Also it is worth remembering that once you get them to breed you may need to get more tanks to grow the babies in.....
Good luck with your decision

Cheers

Geoff

[racoll]

DJ-don, krazyGeoff's photos show excellent examples of an ideal Panaque tank, and I recommend you go for something similar.

The sand isn't absolutely essential, but I find it so much easier to keep clean with these messy fishes. You can get sand from any decent aquarium store, but like nvcichlids, I collect mine from a local river.

Regarding the plants, although they are not "biotope" correct, the Panaque aren't going to not breed for you, just because you have a bit of greenery. Its just that they are not essential, and they are very unlikely to thrive in a good Panaque tank (i.e. high turnover, well aerated, dim lighting, slightly alkaline, low nutrients & lots of sawdust in suspension).

I don't think the duckweed would last long either, as it likes still water.

would it be okay to use the Fluval 204 and get a eheim pro 200 canister filter?

Regarding the filtration, I think first off try the Fluval 204 filter on its own, and see if its up to the job. The turnover will be too low with just this as a circulation pump though, so you will need an extra powerhead (with venturi) to keep oxygen levels high and dirt in suspension (so the filter can catch it).

[DJ-don]

Hey guys
thanks for the reply rupert and geoff
i still think i have alot of time to make the tank into a panaque tank because the fish might come in a few weeks or so because the guy giving me these L104 hasnt replied my email so which gives me enough time to turn this tank around!
even if i dont get them atleast this sets up my L397-i hope they are a pair though thats the problem
but do you think my peppermint bristlenose would mind the current?

ok so here is what i was thinking
i think i should heavily wood both sides except for the front for vaccuming space and also leaving the middle area with the slate caves
should i a small amount of big pieces of wood or mix them up?

what should be the flow rate of the pump causing the current?
if you guys have pictures can i see your water pumps?
should the current all be facing one direction?

how should i dim the lighting of the tank in a fluval vicenza tank?
im only 14 so please bare in mind the hard stuff i have to go through~~
could i use dark celophane? (is that how you spell it)
btw what should be the temperature?
should i also add in a air stone too?

[racoll]

do you think my peppermint bristlenose would mind the current?

The

Ancistrus

will enjoy the current too.

i think i should heavily wood both sides except for the front for vaccuming space and also leaving the middle area with the slate caves

Sounds good, although you can't really predict where the muck will end up. It is often under the pump though.

should i a small amount of big pieces of wood or mix them up?

Big lumps are both expensive, and take up valuable room for water. Try to get lots of long thin branch shaped pieces and stack them on top of each other. This is cheaper, and gives you more room in the tank.

what should be the flow rate of the pump causing the current?

The pump you want is the Tunze Turbelle nanostream 6025, available here and here.

When combined with the filter, you will have ample circulation at around 17.6x per hour.

should the current all be facing one direction?

Doesn't make any difference, so long as the water is moving and well oxygenated.

how should i dim the lighting of the tank in a fluval vicenza tank?

Removing one of the florescent tubes is a good start.

The bogwood will stain the water a bit, which will help. You can also grow Anubias at the surface (attached to the wood), which will filter out the light. This is a tough plant and will grow anywhere.

what should be the temperature?

Start off at 26-27C for general conditioning.

should i also add in a air stone too?

Yes, if you have the money!

[krazyGeoff]

racoll that was a fantastic post.

Thanks

Geoff

[DJ-don]

what should be the flow rate of the pump causing the current?

The pump you want is the Tunze Turbelle nanostream 6025, available here and here.

When combined with the filter, you will have ample circulation at around 17.6x per hour.

thanks for the info rupert
great stuff there!
would one of these be good enough?
or would i need more?

i only have about a few hundred dollars to use
would you think that i should buy the power head instead of another filter?

[racoll]

would one of these be good enough?
or would i need more?

i only have about a few hundred dollars to use
would you think that i should buy the power head instead of another filter?

It's hard to say exactly, as every circumstance is different, but this is a good starting point I think.

I think a decent quality Tunze pump would do the job nicely, and your present filter should be okay too. An airstone would be a good addition though.

More powerheads or filters could certainly be added later on, if necessary.

[DJ-don]

so far it looks like im only gettin one male from my friend and 1 female from a lfs i literally live in ;)
my friend says he has all males

the lfs one seems a bit small. round about 5-7cm but it looks very graved or maybe just fat.

the lfs owner (friend of ours) says its a L333 but i dont think he is looking at it very carefully
would it be better to buy an internal filter with a flow rate the same os the tunze?
and there is a pump at the lfs that is usually used to pump water from a barrel of RO water to tank(well thats what they use in the lfs for putting more water in the show tanks) but it doesnt have any suction cups or magnets to hold onto and there is only a 3kL/h and 1kL/h

[racoll]

would it be better to buy an internal filter with a flow rate the same os the tunze?

No way. Get the Tunze. It'll do exactly what you need, be reliable, easy to install, and take up zero room in your tank.

[DJ-don]

i tried to take out a light today but as i read the manual it said i cant use the light at all without both lamps in
how should i dim the lighting?

[racoll]

how should i dim the lighting?

Anubias grown at the surface, and more wood, is your best option!

Maybe some kind of plastic mesh would work under the hood, but you have to be careful what you put there, as it might get quite hot under the lights.

[MatsP]

You can wrap aluminium foil around parts of a fluorescent light to dim it a bit. Obviously only a bit, but say covering 25% of each light will have a noticable effect. Make sure, of course, that the foil can not get into contact with the electrical parts at the end of the light unit. Using several narrow strips will make it more even.

--
Mats

[CAJAGISAN]

do u have to use RO water? or normal water is just fine?:O

ro is an expensive kit :/

[MatsP]

They are not the most sensitive fish, so as long as you have reasonable tap-water, they should be fine. I keep mine in the waste-water from the RO system, and they are doing fine in that.

To breed them, it may help to be able to switch to RO water for a bit...

--
Mats

[DJ-don]

ok so far the tank has gotten only 1 L104 which is a possible female judging by size
im doing this slowly. dont want to rush things! but still need some wood and an air stone is added so far
the tunze hasnt been added yet

btw can female L104 get small gill plate odontone (dont really know spelling) too? it looks like mine might be but not really sure

[MatsP]

Yes, both males and females have gill-plate odontodes. Also, males and females can look quite similar.

--
Mats

[DJ-don]

oh ok thanks mats
can females get odontal growth on its flanks too?
is the only certain way to sex a female is to see its genitilla pappillae? (again dont know spelling!)

[MatsP]

If you have two fish that are in good condition and of opposite sex, then it's quite easy to see, as the male has MUCH more hair on the back part of the body - it's REALLY obvious. The problem is that not all fish are in good condition, and it's sometimes easy to fool oneself where there are only one sex in the group of fish being looked at - then one finds small differences and making them bigger than they are, if you see what I mean.

But if you have at least one male and one female, you can quite clearly see which is which.

--
Mats

[DJ-don]

thanks mats
the one i got is a bit fat and shubby so im thinking it could be a female
we just have to wait and see

and my friend has about 7 of these and they are all clearly male.
so i plan to get a male off him to see what happens!

[MatsP]

Body shape (fat and stubby) is NOT a good indicator in these fishes - when in good condition, both males and females look like they have just swallowed something a bit smaller than a golf-ball.

--
Mats

[DJ-don]

oh ok thanks mats for the help
this one is about 6-7cm long and was in the lfs since november last year and didnt grow any odontal growth in the lfs
but it could have just meant its young or something like that
would you think adding a male could help me sex mine?
as i said before my friend has 7 clear males he has

[MatsP]

Well, if it's been in the LFS for that long and it's about fully grown (they may grow a bit beyond 7cm, but it's not common), I'd say it's likely a female. Add a male and see what happens...

--
Mats

[DJ-don]

here is what the tank looks like now

i did add a large piece of wood and some small bits from my other tanks into that one
Branches arent that common to find in LFS in canberra
and i dont plan to use trees out side our home-way too risky and too much work!
i did dim the light with some foil
and there is a strong large air stone which gives the tank a mild current

im getting the male tomorrow

its really hard for me to find a good decent pump.
this is because my parents dont trust internet sites to buy off except one. and even then they dont trust it that much!!

now all i need is a edible cave for them!! iwas thinking bamboo but i havent found any of those in a long time or maybe cocunut but i dont know how to boil it and remove the meat and such-and then again i havent seen a large brown cocunut in are local supermarket

and now im gathering some info across different forums on how to breed them

so far i plan to:
let the male settle in for 2 weeks or so with normal weekly water changes with vacuum
after he has settled in,chosen his cave etc., i will stop feeding my fish and let them be but removing water by vacuuming, this will take about 2 weeks
then after the 2 weeks im going to fill up the tank slowly every day with cooler water than the main tank with normal dechlorinater (dont have access to RO water) but if it does rain i will use the rain water to fill up the tank OR when it rains just fill the whole tank up slowly with colder water
then see what happens there
how does that sound?
if there is anything that needs adjusting, please tell

thanks in advance

btw does anyone know what that large floating plant is? it has no roots too.

it came with my ambulia that i got from an auction so i though it was part of it but it slowly came off (maybe it was tangled?) and now i have this nice big thread like floating plant!
if you need an another picture to id the plant please tell

[Linus_Cello]

My guess is that the floating plant is hornwort.

[DJ-don]

My guess is that the floating plant is hornwort.

thanks linus cello

just looked it up on google and your right no the money!