Glass cats and Hara jerdoni?

[L number Banana]

Hi, have my show tank set up and waiting for the glass cats to move in. Still have no other fish planned but what about Hara jerdoni?
The temp range for the Glass Cats is 21 to 26C, H jerdoni is 20 to 25C. What temp seems better for each species? Opposite or can I find a happy middle?

The tank is 18" high x 36" long x 12" front to back, silica sand and granite. Vals and eventually lots of floating plants. A few roots but mostly open swimming space, lots of airstones across the back.

How many would be suitable and do they need territory to themselves aside from lots of plants?

Any improvements suggested for my setup?

[Silurus]

Glass cats would be happier at the higher end of the temperature range and the hara at the lower end. Something like 23–24°C should probably work, but it is my experience that silurids become very prone to ich at low temperatures.

[L number Banana]

Thanks Silurus,

Had a brush with a nasty ich (?) and don't want to go there again. My first silurids so I'll keep them at the higher temp and find something else suitable for the lower part of the tank. I had hoped to find something from the same area but the smaller cats on the list seem pretty scarce at shops around here. I'll see what other non-catfish live in the same area.

It's not a rush, I want to keep the glass cats by themselves for a while to make sure they're healthy.

Any suggestions for bottom fish? Even non-cats? I was thinking of kuhli loaches or weather eels (Pangio spp. and small Macrognathus spp.) but would these type fish bother the glass cats or vice versa?

Any other 'odd' fish that you can think of? Something less nocturnal than your average pleco?

[racoll]

Pangio spp. and/or Macrognathus circumcinctus would work nicely I think.

You did say in the other thread, that the substrate was sand, and the plants were in the flourite, right.

You have to be careful with these burrowing fishes, as they need soft sand.

Both of them would appreciate some leaf litter substrate too.

[L number Banana]

Racoll:

Pangio spp. and/or Macrognathus circumcinctus would work nicely I think.

You did say in the other thread, that the substrate was sand, and the plants were in the flourite, right.

You have to be careful with these burrowing fishes, as they need soft sand.

Both of them would appreciate some leaf litter substrate too.

I replied on the other thread about the flourite only being in pots but I didn't see you back again when I asked about keeping the sand clean and that was my main worry after my little hydrogen sulfide bubble issue. I decided not to use the flat black pebbles and go with your suggestion of sand anyway, very thin layer, 1/2 inch. The sand is silica sand, nice and round. Couldn't find natural colour so I mixed it and now it's sort of grey, not so bad.

Thought you must have given up on me as hopeless so I started looking at other sand burrowing fish, like the Hara.

I've got the beech tree now, so leaves are doable too. I'll look up the two above and see what else they may need. I can get them almost any time but the glass cats are on order. May be here this week!! I've ordered lucky 11.

ps, did you see the pics I found of another (or same?) Glass cat spawn? What do you think? The fry looks like a tiny glass cat?
http://tintenfisch.vox.com/library/posts/2007/02/

Edit: oops, just realized I was looking at Misgurnus anguillicaudatus and not Macrognathus circumcinctus but I like your fish better! This is the "weather eel" according to my LFS. http://www.loaches.com/species-index/we ... licaudatus

[Silurus]

If you're going to use Macrognaths circumcinctus, try to bring the pH down as much as the tankmates can tolerate. This species should ideally be kept in blackwater setups.

[racoll]

If you're going to use Macrognaths circumcinctus, try to bring the pH down as much as the tankmates can tolerate. This species should ideally be kept in blackwater setups.

I wasn't aware these were that fussy. I kept mine at a moderate hardness (300us) and a neutral pH for a long time, with no problems whatsoever. As far as I could see, the "eel" was thriving.

For me, giving these spiny eels an appropriate diet was the far more difficult and important aspect of their upkeep*.

I replied on the other thread about the flourite only being in pots but I didn't see you back again when I asked about keeping the sand clean and that was my main worry after my little hydrogen sulfide bubble issue. I decided not to use the flat black pebbles and go with your suggestion of sand anyway, very thin layer, 1/2 inch. The sand is silica sand, nice and round. Couldn't find natural colour so I mixed it and now it's sort of grey, not so bad.

Thought you must have given up on me as hopeless so I started looking at other sand burrowing fish, like the Hara.

Sorry about that. Must have missed the thread.

You did the right thing. The hydrogen sulfide will not be an issue with thin layers like 1/2". You only run into problems with several inches of the stuff.

Keeping it clean is dead easy. The dirt just sits on top, and you carefully siphon it up. You can't help sucking up a little bit of sand (it gets less with practice - use a regular 12mm garden hose with no attachments), but this can be easily returned to the aquarium, after you tip the dirty water away and give it a rinse.

* They are always malnourished in the shops, and will only eat live worms (I fed the compost worm Eisenia fetida), at least until they decided to eat frozen foods (a few years later!).

[L number Banana]

Thanks guys,
I read a bit about the Macrognaths circumcinctus and the blackwater type set-up may be a bit too much of an issue for a living room show tank and I'm not the most confident person when it comes to feeding live food. I still haven't been able to bring myself to feed red worms yet so earthworms types are totally out of the question. I've tried black worms and daphnia, too squeamish for even the blackworms.

This tank is part of my one-woman campaign to get all my friends hooked on fishkeeping so anything but crystal clear tank water is out. The beech leaves have worked well in my hoplo tank and don't change the water colour or the ph too much so I can certainly work with them as leaf litter. I take them out when they're kind of skeletal.

So it's pangio Kuhli and Glass cats. The plants are in a 'planter' across the back of the tank and I know the kuhlis may try to squeeze under it but I also read that if I keep enough of them, they won't be so shy.

Wish me luck!

[racoll]

I read a bit about the Macrognaths circumcinctus and the blackwater type set-up may be a bit too much of an issue for a living room show tank and I'm not the most confident person when it comes to feeding live food. I still haven't been able to bring myself to feed red worms yet so earthworms types are totally out of the question. I've tried black worms and daphnia, too squeamish for even the blackworms.

Too bad. Spiny eels are great fun.

The plants are in a 'planter' across the back of the tank and I know the kuhlis may try to squeeze under it but I also read that if I keep enough of them, they won't be so shy.

Get a whole fistful of them, and they'll be active all day, so long as the lights aren't too bright!

If there is lots of sand and leaf litter, they should avoid the planter.

As we speak, I'm watching mine rummage through the oak leaves.

What are your tapwater parameters (pH, KH, GH, conductivity etc)?, as these fishes will not appreciate really hard water. Having said that though, they are hobby stables, so should be fairly robust.

[L number Banana]

Racoll wrote:
Too bad. Spiny eels are great fun.

It was about this time last year that I touched my first fish, that took an awful lot of courage! I can play with a huge boa or corn snake or let a wasp land on my hand for the photo but wormy things are just not on. When I used to fish for small mouth bass and pike, I was the only one who could get a worm on my hook without ever letting it touch me. Didn't touch the fish either, just passed it over to someone with more courage.

If it looks like worm but it's a fish, no problem. Can the kuhlies bite me if I put my hands in their little ball of fun?

Get a whole fistful of them, and they'll be active all day, so long as the lights aren't too bright!

I'm going to have tons of floating plants on top to keep the Glass Cats less shy (?) so that should cut the lighting considerably and the shadows are nice.

If there is lots of sand and leaf litter, they should avoid the planter.

As we speak, I'm watching mine rummage through the oak leaves.

I have beech leaves but can get oak leaves. I always thought oak leaves would make the water acidic? In the plant world we always use oak and pine to make the soil acidic for thing like Azaleas.

The tapwater comes out at pH 7.4 but I use 2/3 tap and 1/3 snow/rain mix. Keeps it at 6.5 now. I may not need to add so much of the rain/snow water if I add a lot of beech leaves?
I have no idea about the conductivity, bought a test kit a while back and can't figure it out at all Next big payday, I'll be buying the TDS meter that MatsP suggested.

From the city's 2008 water report - So when it says a fish requires dh 20, I can't get these numbers and those numbers to relate. Keep in mind I live in a city built on and of limestone.

Conductivity 298 – 310 Us/cm
Hardness - 117 – 118 mg/l
Nitrate - 0.3 – 0.4 mg/l
Nitrite - <0.1 mg/l
pH - 7.32 – 8.13
Calcium - 33.3 – 33.8 mg/l
Alkalinity (as CaCO3) - 80 - 84 mg/l

Naturally glowing fish...
Uranium - 0.00019 mg/l
Sorry couldn't resist that one. You should see the list of PVC and pesticide/herbicide chemicals...

Are those number good or bad? And how can I tweak them?

[racoll]

Are those number good or bad? And how can I tweak them?

Your water sounds pretty much ideal for these fishes, and the set-up, with floating plants, vallis, leaf litter and sand is almost as good as it gets.

Maybe I would go 50/50 with the rain/tapwater mix though, as you have access to it.

I have beech leaves but can get oak leaves. I always thought oak leaves would make the water acidic?

Oak leaves are tougher, and tend to last a bit longer in my experience. Both leaves will have a mild acidifying effect, which is a good thing. Your water should remain well buffered and stable, however, if water changes are regular (i.e weekly).

Is the tank set up yet? Some photos would be cool.

[L number Banana]

Racoll:

Your water sounds pretty much ideal for these fishes, and the set-up, with floating plants, vallis, leaf litter and sand is almost as good as it gets. Maybe I would go 50/50 with the rain/tapwater mix though, as you have access to it.

Cool, had to read that twice.

Is the tank set up yet? Some photos would be cool.

Sort of
The vals are being de-snailed in the loach tank but I put the baby vals in and one spiral crypt. The hornwort and variegated sword are just temporary for the good Stuff (Technical term) that they have all over them.
Ignore the backdrop
Need more branches and roots AND a way to stop them from floating up to the top or rolling over to block the swimming area. May have to tie a pebble to the ends of the branches.
Other bubblewall broke so only 18" is on, looks kind of odd.
Heaters are both older but are the kind that the temp can't be adjusted so I may have to switch them out as I see what the resting temp is. There were used in cichlid tanks. Sitting at 25 right now.
Beech leaves are floating on top in the pics but it's -14 celcius so I wasn't about to spend any more time plucking in my slippers..
So far:

The new cat likes it:

[racoll]

I think this tank will look really nice once there's loads more wood, plants and leaves. Its a little barren at the moment, but on the right track, definitely.

There's always a trade off between having a natural aquarium, and one where you can actually see the fish! I find I get best results devoting say a quarter/third of the tank, to really dense planting, wood and floating plants. So dense, that if the fish want to disappear entirely, they can easily.

The rest of the tank can then be a bit more open, and where the fishes will hopefully spend more time, safe in knowledge that they can retreat if they choose.

One thing I would do too, is remove the bubble wall and air pump entirely! I usually recommend airstones for most tanks, but not this one.

Neither the glass cats nor Pangio are oxygen sensitive fishes, so they won't need it. Even if it's for aesthetic reasons, I would reconsider it. Having that amount of aeration will really suppress your plant growth, as it will drive off all the CO2 in the water, and encourage algae.

It'll also make the set-up a darn sight quieter!

P.S. 25C is a good temp, and I like the wood

P.P.S. Watch out for algae at this stage - don't have the lights on for longer than 8 hours per day.

[L number Banana]

I think this tank will look really nice once there's loads more wood, plants and leaves. Its a little barren at the moment, but on the right track, definitely.

Just a little barren?
I'm quite plant crazy so it's definitely too barren for me at the moment! Here what it looked like before I tore it down. See all those tiny shoots in the front? That's the only vals that are in the tank at the moment but the big vals in this pic at the back are the ones that are planted up in the long trough-like thing. I mainly tore it down because I couldn't get ahead of the snails. Thought I had the overfeeding under control! I've split the tank into three and the loaches are de-snailing all the plants etc before the go into other tanks. The lilies and swords were de-snailed chemically in a bucket with copper-sulphate - rinsed the living daylights out of them after.

One thing I would do too, is remove the bubble wall and air pump entirely! I usually recommend airstones for most tanks, but not this one. Neither the glass cats nor Pangio are oxygen sensitive fishes, so they won't need it. Even if it's for aesthetic reasons, I would reconsider it. Having that amount of aeration will really suppress your plant growth, as it will drive off all the CO2 in the water, and encourage algae.

I'm going to have to go against common opinion (sense? ) on this one. The plants need nitrate and ammonia and that's what they're being supplemented with. I'm using pure ammonia and organic orchid food. Still getting a tiny ammonia reading but I need some there to get the bacteria happening. Once the plants start using more, the readings go down where I can't safely supplement them with 'fake' ammonia and will start to introduce the fish to provide the real food. The fish pellets etc provide enough of the micro-nutrients that I don't have to worry about that aspect. The floating leaves will slow the bubbles at the surface a bit too.

Once there's only fish, I use Flourish Excel liquid carbon (when I remember ) and the plants always need trimming not replacing. I'm still learning fish but I've been blessed with a neon green thumb. No problems with algae yet but I did have a protozoa(?) or bacteria bloom once - evil!

I had that bubble wall going in the lily tank and they still grew like weeds I guess because they were getting all they needed food-wise and the lights are quite strong. It even bloomed for me. http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =4&t=26873 Same for all the other plants, the tank above had 3 airstones going, corner/middle and under the outflow.

It'll also make the set-up a darn sight quieter!

It's only run with one Tetra whisper 20 air pump! Tiny and silent because it's guts are suspended under the housing. Also the bubbles from the diffuser are so tiny that you don't hear them break the surface like a regular airstone. If I lean down close, I can hear a kind of hiss. I changed from the regular airstone to that because the bubbles were driving me crazy. I used to keep them on a timer to start and stop opposite the lights but now that I'm working through the night close to the tank, the airstones were getting irritating.

A sponge is going on the end of that bubblewall line once it's juiced up in a cycled tank. More bacteria can't hurt, I think?

I like the wood too but it will be interesting finding more like that. My curly hazelnut has been pruned as much as it can take for one season. I was thinking I might find some old apple tree branches that are somewhat gnarly and bent. There's also a native shrub that's really bent up and I've seen one in the neighbourhood that could use trimming. I'm going to walk right up in the spring and offer to do their pruning if I can have the cuttings. Worth a try

[L number Banana]

Racoll, can you do me a favour and take a look at the glass catfish thread here?
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 10#p181910
I've advised what I could but I'm not so good at things particular to glass cats. He's certainly an unhappy fish but I'm not even sure if he's sick. If he had cysts inside he would probably be gone by now?

Silurus, any ideas about the sick glass cat, I'm at a loss here.

Thanks!

[racoll]

Well, it looks like you're having no problem growing those plants, even with a bubble-wall. The new tank should be heaving with foliage in no time!

Racoll, can you do me a favour and take a look at the glass catfish thread here?

Not really sure I can offer any more advice than what's been given already. I've no experience with this kind of illness at all.