Hi - New and after some advice

[MikeO]

Hi,

Name is Mike - From County Durham in UK.

I am currently setting up a mbuna tank and am on day 46 of a fishless cycle. The tank is ready to stock and will be in 2 weeks time.

My question is what pleco I can put in with the mbuna. Obviosuly choices are limited and depending on who I talk to depends on the answers I get, so thought this seemed like the ideal place to get a good response. I want something different - rather than just going for a standard brisltenose, which is the common response. The pH is at about 7.5, but I expect this to increase to 8 after my final water change.

Really I am looking at max length of 6" as the tank is only 4ft (260 litre) but would consider keeping a smaller specimin until it was too large for the tank and would then rehome if need be. Tank is filtered by a U4 and an FX5 and has a caribsea cichlid sand substrate with about 50kg of rock (40kg is limestone) and I have some mopani to go in which has been soaking for the last 5 weeks. There are no plants with it being a mbuna tank.

I have come up with the following list, some of which may or may not be suitable. Comments on the suitability of these would be apprectiated, but also any further suggestions.


L183
L091 (although I am aware these will grow larger than 6")
L137 (as above)
L142


Thanks in advance!
I

[Back]

Hi,

I'm not sure I would put a Pl*co in a Malawi tank with Mbunas at all. I guess the water parameters will work if you keep pH closer to 7.5 but Mbunas can be rather naughty. It would require a sturdy and calm Pl*co.

Addition: Most of the suggestions you have seems to prefer slightly lower pH. Not sure about L137. L091 will probably not back down if bullied by the Mbunas and what that'll lead to I don't dare to say.
Sorry but I don't have a good suggestion for you. Hopefully someone else has.

[Richard B]

The reason the common bristlenose is suggested so often is because it is quite tough & highly adaptable.

Your tank will have 2 key features - aggressive mbuna & hard alkaline water. The fish you quote are not compatible with either of these & indeed it will be tricky to suggest much else other than a common bristlenose. Some of the fish you quote are not cheap, not the easiest fish to find & really are poor choices. It seems you are after 2 set-ups in a single tank. If you are definately going with mbuna, your choices of catfish should be common bristlenose or lake synodontis & even then you will need to lay out the decor so there are areas of concealment for the catfishes

[Richard B]

Sorry - forgot to say welcome to Planet Catfish

[MatsP]

First of all, welcome to Planet Catfish.

Second, I started writing this before anyone else had answered, but I wanted to go into a bit more detail as to why this is a bad idea.

My question is what pleco I can put in with the mbuna.

Essentially: Nothing fancy. Expensive/sensitive/fancy plecos are not good candidates to mix with Mbuna for two reasons:
1. Mbuna are very aggressive fish, they can and will chase/bite anything and everything that they think intrudes into their territory. Whilst plecos are armoured, their fins and eyes are definitely not protected, and unfortunately, these will be part of the targets for the Mbuna.

2. The correct water conditions for Mbuna is quite different from the correct water conditions for nearly all Plecos. Hard water with pH above 8 is definitely not the "right" levels for Pleco tanks.

L183
L091 (although I am aware these will grow larger than 6")
L137 (as above)
L142

Let's look at these in detail (although my previous answer applies well to these, I want to show that there are other things to consider, and some of these are MORE bad than others.

Ancistrus dolichopterus

(L183): Probably the most unsuitable fish you could come up with [at least amongst plecos].
These are blackwater species, their natural habitat resembles the colour of strong tea, and the brown colour is caused by deteriorating plant matter that cause extremely low pH (frequently below 5.0, and certainly under 6.0) and no measurable hardness in the water (electric conductivity less than 20 uS/cm - nearly no minerals in the water at all). I lost my group of three because I mixed too much tap-water into my newly set up tank - the pH value was about 7.5. The Mbuna being algae-eaters, will compete with the Ancistrus for food.

Hypostomus sp(L137)

. A Hypostomus in the Cochliodon group - it is a wood-eater. It is perhaps the least unsuitable of your fishes, but the recommended pH in Ingo Seidels Back To Nature Guide to L-numbers is 5-7. It probably tolerates a tiny bit higher pH, but would not be "happy" at around 8.5 which is the recommended pH for Mbuna. Also, being a wood-eater, it needs wood in the tank - this will (slowly) lower the pH in the tank, which is the opposite of what you want for the Mbuna.

Leporacanthicus triactis

. I just acquired some of these. Aside from the generic bits that apply to all: pH being too high in the Mbuna tank, they are carnivores, and need to be feed a meaty diet. This is likely to lead to "Malawi bloat" in your Mbuna fish. Fantastic fish, but not suitable in combination with Mbuna.

Baryancistrus sp(L142)

. This fish will compete for food with the Mbuna, and it's a sensitive fish that doesn't like "dirty" water [this applies to the others too]. Mbuna tanks are generally heavily stocked to reduce the aggression of one individual against another. This makes the tank go dirty very quickly. And they need pretty constant supply of "aufwuchs". Read the article by Ingo Seidel on "Orange seam plecos, a trouble fish" in Shane's world. It is on the subject of gold nuggets, but I'd say that for all intents and purposes, it's very similar to the "gold nugget" when it comes to husbandry - it just happens to have white spots instead of yellow spots.

Essentially, when you ask what fancy pleco goes with Mbuna, it's like saying to the Porsche dealership "This fine Carrera GT, I'd like it, but I want it to be a good off-road vehicle that takes a lot of luggage" - you are trying to keep fish together that doesn't belong together.

This

is not a good replacement for


If you want something catfishy in your Mbuna tank, then I'd suggest either:
1.

Ancistrus cf_cirrhosus

- common bristlenose. These are very hardy fish, tolerates high pH and is not very expensive/exotic, so if your Mbuna decides they don't like it, we don't loose a very nice, unusual fish.
2.

Synodontis

from Lake Tanganyika or Lake Malawi. There are quite a few. The most commonly is

Synodontis multipunctata

. Beware that there are fish sold as S. multipunctatat that is a mix of S. multipunctata [or a close-relative] and some other Synodontis species - these hybrids aren't bad fish, but it's fraud (my opinion at least) to sell them under a name of a genuine species.

You could also have a common pleco, but they grow too big for your tank.

If you really want to keep fancy plecos, you probably need to either reconsider the choice of Mbuna, or get another tank.

--
Mats

[MikeO]

Thanks for the fast replies.

I thoguht that this might be the case.

What about albino bristlenose - Would this make any difference, or is it really just best to stick to the common?

[Richard B]

Thanks for the fast replies.

I thoguht that this might be the case.

What about albino bristlenose - Would this make any difference, or is it really just best to stick to the common?

The common bristlenose is the same as the albino (unless you find the L144 which should be avoided). Just remember the albino has red eyes & you'll be ok

[MatsP]

I would have thought that the captive form commonly sold as L144 is a hardy species too - but I don't know. Did Mark Walters say anything about it when he had them at the show? The "true" L144 is, as Ingo puts it "an ugly fish", and very hard to come by, so it is extremely unlikely that will turn up accidentally in the shops, but the "fake" L144 is available from time to time - it is commonly quite expensive however, and it's perhaps not worth risking it with the Mbuna. The regular albino (red eyes) is often available around the same price as the brown form, although some shops will charge 2-3x more for albino than for brown ones. It's obviously up to you Mike how much you want to pay for the fish, and whether you think the albino variant is worth any extra outlay or not.

--
Mats

[MikeO]

That's interesting as when I was at the LFS earlier having this discussion, when I said about wanting something other than the common bristlenose they suggested a L144, which they said would be about £25. Would this seem about right? Its a nice looking variety, but again if there are potential issues with it being in with Mbuna then I would be wary about putting it in. Its more from the view of the welfare of the fish than the cost - I am trying to make sure I have happy fish at the same time as getting what I want out fo the tank.

I have only ever kept common pleco in my previous tanks, so this is all new to me.

[Richard B]

The "fake" L144 is a more slightly built fish which is half the size of a common - hence i think wouldn't be so good in a mbuna tank

How big is a L144 for £25, what colour were it's eyes? Little ones (1") were £7.99 in the last LFS i saw or £4 from Mark Walters (CSG Cat Chat editor, BAP administrator & all-round nice guy) at the CSG convention over the weekend just gone.

[MatsP]

I would say that the BEST candidate is probably the brown form of the common bristlenose. In most places, you get small ones of these for under £5 (up to about 1-2"), the next size up, 2-3" around £6-8, and "mature" individuals at 3"+ would sell for around £10 - but of course, it is supply and demand, and if there is no breeder(s) near you, then the LFS will buy from a wholesaler/commercial breeder, which may put the price up a bit.

L144 is noticably more expensive. £25 is about right - again, prices do vary depending on supply and demand and the size of the fish - for a large fish (around 2-3") - and it's almost certainly a "fake" L144 - I had a look through our Cat-eLog pictures for

Ancistrus sp(L144)

, and I _THINK_ every single picture, including the one from Ingo Seidel actually show "fake" L144).

There are also rumours of a variant of the common bristlenose that looks like the L144 (that is, having blue/black eyes instead of pink/red eyes) - this would be showing up by having a slighly lighter coloured spots in the same way that the albino form of the common is.

Richard makes a good point about the mature size of the fish - "fake L144" is smaller than the mature size of the common, which is certainly not helping it in a tank fully of aggressive cichlids.

--
Mats

[MikeO]

Thanks guys.

They didnt actually have an L144 in the shop - they just said it would be an option if I wanted one.

Lukcily for me there are a number of ads for breeders local to me with common bristlenoses starting from only 80p (babies of course) - It looks like the common is going to be the winner here. Glad I had your input