Papa Panaque or L329?

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 11 Sep 2003, 16:34

Hi!

I dont have a pic but i was offered a "what i think" is some kind of papa panaque at the lfs. Its about 10 cm big and has very long caudal filaments. It looks similar to the L90 in appearance but doesnt feature the white caudal. Also the markings are much clearer. The price would be 27 euro although i think with a bit of talk i could get it for 20 euro.
Is that a fish worth picking up?

greetings
C

kdreymann · Post by **kdreymann** » 11 Sep 2003, 17:41

Caol_ila wrote:Hi!
I dont have a pic but i was offered a "what i think" is some kind of papa panaque at the lfs. Its about 10 cm big and has very long caudal filaments. It looks similar to the L90 in appearance but doesnt feature the white caudal. Also the markings are much clearer. The price would be 27 euro although i think with a bit of talk i could get it for 20 euro.
Is that a fish worth picking up?
greetings
C

Also ICH wÃ¼rde das machen!!!

GruÃ? Klaus

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 11 Sep 2003, 17:45

hehe thx klaus....(smb forgot that this is an english speaking forum) ;)

checking more pics it looks a bit like L203 but the tail is different again. i know the lfs had a shipment of expensive Ls a while ago with a Papa for 70 euro which was mislabeled then...maybe its the lost fish...think ill pick it up tomorrow.

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 11 Sep 2003, 21:57

Update:
Thx to klaus i am now the proud owner of this fish...

around 10 cm w/o filaments

very interesting circle marking between the eyes

small mouth white teeth

got him for less as i thought!

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 12 Sep 2003, 06:43

HI!

Nice Fish Chris... it reminds me a bit of a LDA number which is also shown in the Aqualog supplement ( can't remember the number) but is also shown under a "variation" of L90 such as L90b or c...
Any way nice pick up!!! Just hope for you he won't grow as big as the real Panaque Papa does !!!!!
Cheers
Yann

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 12 Sep 2003, 07:31

urghs...thx yann...found this pic of a papa...

lets hope for a good job and a big house...that i have to build for this little bugger...

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 12 Sep 2003, 11:56

I think i found it...cauz i was so convinced that it is a Panaque i didnt check many other genus:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/lo ... 1022_f.htm
L186a

Anybody got some info on it?

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 12 Sep 2003, 13:00

Hi!!

I think this one is higly related to the genus Acanthicus-Pseudacanthicus!

It should probably get into the 30cm range!!!

Cheers
Yann

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 12 Sep 2003, 16:32

@yann hehe thx at least im going down size wise from the papa panaque (although i like the name better) is there any other usefull info in H2o-log on this one? i.e. where its from? Somehow i still think it was a good pickup for the price...even if i have to build a house around it...

@tkp i saw that you have/had one of these fish! Can you provide the not knowing ppl with information about care or anything.

Summing up what i know at the moment is very very depressing:
Its an L186a, supposedly an Acanthicus or Pseudacanticus
Hell get very big.

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 12 Sep 2003, 17:57

I think this question will maily go in HHs direction:
How can i see if this is Pseud or genuine Acanthicus? Is there a key available?

Post by **Silurus** » 12 Sep 2003, 18:01

Acanthicus lacks an adipose fin (which Pseudacanthicus would have).
It's all in Jon Armbruster's online key.

kgroenhoej · Post by **kgroenhoej** » 12 Sep 2003, 20:44

In case your fish is a Panaque instead of a Pseudacanthicus please provide some wood to your tank. You already know his, but for the rest: Panaques love to to eat wood where as Pseudacanthicus might not even look at it;
Pseudacanthicus may use the wood as shelter and it might rasp a little on the wood, but if your tank is been flooding by sawdust after you add wood, then I would say your fish is a Panaque.

-Klaus

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 13 Sep 2003, 00:17

Hi again!

I got a very interesting pm by AndrÃ© and his opinion on my fish.
He thinks it is a Panaquolus sp. most probably L329 and no way to be a Pseudacanthicus.
I really think this is the most accountable id so far.
the fish on his DATZ foto is 5-6 cm so differences to the bigger fish might result from size differences as i understand. A fish that maxes out at 18 cm is much more to my liking.

This whole mess with L186 and L186a and so on just supported my opinion that Aqualog is creating a mess by doing these fantasy IDs.

Plec0maniac · Post by **Plec0maniac** » 14 Sep 2003, 16:39

the papa panaques pattern is truly interesting as well as its tail.. It has no white part so I guess that it can be an Lda28

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 14 Sep 2003, 21:13

You dont have a pic abvailable of LDA28 Plecoman? thx

Plec0maniac · Post by **Plec0maniac** » 16 Sep 2003, 04:06

Sorry i dont have pics.. try to look at the poster of aqualogs most beautiful Lnos. theres one there

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 16 Sep 2003, 04:11

I sent an email to Erwin about LDA28 but smb told me hes on vacation right now...

@plecomaniac dyou know sth about tkps fish? The L186a pics on the elog?

kgroenhoej · Post by **kgroenhoej** » 17 Sep 2003, 21:24

Have you seen these?:

http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/kyen/tro ... tail_1.htm
http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/kyen/tro ... tail_2.htm
http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/kyen/tro ... spynyo.htm

-Klaus

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 18 Sep 2003, 14:15

I would agree that the fish is LDA28 (which = aqualog L090b). Is this fish also L329? Quite possibly, and I will label it so, but we need a range of fish at different sizes and ranges to be sure.

As to it being a <I>Panaqolus</I> well, (a) you have to accept that it is a valid genus and (b) isn't a small adult size a characteristic for that genus? This fish is going to have a SL of around 30cm at least I would have to think. I could be wrong about this, but to me the eyes look different at least on larger fish. Reminds me of the coal pleco

Jools

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 18 Sep 2003, 15:40

hi!

I am really confused about this critter...seems like everybody has a different opinion on it...and nobody has ever seen one life before as it seems...ill have to wait till its 20 or 30 cm and stops growing to tell what it is then...

Il be back in a few years...;)
Is LDA28 a rare fish? And if this one is LDA28 the label in the shop(that was one tank higher in the same row) that read "L90 Panaq.papa - 83.90â?¬" is my fish and the exporter was as confused as we are and decided that it would be the best selling name i guess...well they didnt expect the most onlikely creature to find the fish(ring) - me (a hobbit).

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 18 Sep 2003, 15:58

Hiho!

i just got Erwins email:

ch bin mir sicher, dass Sie damit richtig liegen, dass Ihr Wels zur selben Art gehÃ¶rt wie der im Aqualog als L186a abgebildete Fisch

He is sure that my fish is L186a. (also added that its no Acanthicus)

ch dachte eigentlich auch, dass der als L186a abgebildete Fisch ein
Jugendstadium von LDA28 darstellt, aber wenn Ihr Tier bereits 10 cm SL
erreicht hat, kommen mir wieder einmal Zweifel

He thought before i sent in the pics that L186a is a young LDA28...which is doubtfull after he saw the size of my fish...

L329, L90b(Aqualog), LDA27 und LDA28 sind meines Erachtens die selbe Art.

He thinks they are one Genus...also adds that all of them can change color, from youth to adultry and also depending on breeding mood or not...

He also sent me 2 pics of LDA28 about the same size as mine and the female looks very close to my fish...as it has changed color to a dark gray since i moved her...

greetings
C

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 18 Sep 2003, 18:00

Caol_ila wrote:hi!

I am really confused about this critter...seems like everybody has a different opinion on it...and nobody has ever seen one life before as it seems...

My opinion is based on seeing this fish for sale both in the UK and in Peru. The photos in DATZ and aqualog also help but I recognized the fish instantly as it has a very distinctive shape.

Jools

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 18 Sep 2003, 21:32

@jools so i can call it LDA28 rather than L329? Taking into account that the latter could be a juvenile version of the LDA28...
About the genus ill have to wait till some mastermind makes sth out of this fish...
What prices do these fish command in the UK? Ive never seen it here before...
Good to have some eyewitnesses - finally...

some more pics

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 20 Sep 2003, 12:00

They aren't seen for sale very often I think becuase they are not as pretty in terms of colouration as some other fish. I have to say though they are a lovely shape and I'd certainly be interested in them. They sell for around Â£15-Â£22 ukp.

I would can call them LDA28 as that is the first (chronologically) name they received but bear in mind that these labels are just common names. You could call it Fred if you like.

Jools

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 23 Sep 2003, 17:53

hehe in Erwins opinion its a she so fred wouldnt be appropriate ;) but i get your point

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 30 Sep 2003, 23:54

Hi!

Just as an update on how hes doing:
Hes regularly oput during the day looking lovely with his shimmering odontodes all over the body. It gives him a metallic look.Tthe body has become very dark but the fins still show the nice coloration. He is not boisterous retreating from other L's on contact especially during feeding times. I have seen him eat potatoe, small frozen "cabbage" (its the tiny ones dunno the english name) and tetra tabs as well as frozen artemia. Couldnt catch him eat black/red mosquito larvae.
Hes become used to soem places on a big root on the right side of the tank almost never leaving an area of about 30x30 cm. A place with good current but not the heaviest in the tank.
I wonder that nobody on german forums seems to know this fish, so it has to be a very seldom "catch" here. Does anybody on this forum own one?
Had a problem with my eheim canister filter today so i hope all fish will make it w/o problem the next couple of days.

greetings
C

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 08 Oct 2003, 17:11

Hi!

I just visited the shop again to tell them what they had and they got a new shipment in. The fish comes in as Acanthicus for 60 euro...i told the shopdude it wasnt or if he could show me that the fish had no adipose (which it has obviously) and he was close to selling me the fish for 30.- but then called his boss and he told him thats an "Elfenwels" which commands 60.- euro...

Now the new fish is much smaller than mine...my guess would be 6 cm sl so about the size the L329 has on the DATz picture by AndrÃ©. And it looked like a carboncopy of my fish! So after seing this my guess ois that L329 is a different fish than LDA28.

The fish is reserved now but the boss will return in 10 days...but my hoped for another "cheap" snatch have practically vanished and for 60 i wont buy it...

Erwin · Post by **Erwin** » 08 Oct 2003, 20:52

Hello everybody,

Because I'm again involved in this subject, I would like to point to the fact, that LDA28 is probably a species which not only changes coloration during growth (maybe even twice, from a baby-stage to a semiadult, and again to a full grown stage), also male and female show differences.

In the URL's which Klaus gave us,

http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/kyen/tro ... tail_1.htm http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/kyen/tro ... tail_2.htm
http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/kyen/tro ... spynyo.htm

you will clearly identify the fish in the first two URL's (called there leopard_fork_tail) as the same as the one of Caol_ila. I am sure that the one in the last URL of those three is LDA28 (called there peru_brown_acary). I am not so sure any more, that both are just one species, as I thought before. It is a bit confusing for me. Coloration is very similar, especially if you have in mind that it is a species which can change its coloration definitively! The extension of the caudal spines is not a good character, because it can be truncated. The size of the eyes seems to be an individual character (depending on what?). And the body hight? It could depend on the food the fishes gorged. I think we need more specimens to find the truth.

Erwin

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Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 09 Oct 2003, 00:25

Hi!

As you know im stil confused (lucky im not the only one

and its good to finally see a german capacity in fish knowledge on this international forum!!

As i understand there is the high bodied LDA28 and the leopard forktail (which is L186a if im not wrong showing a flat body with smaller eyes similar to the "charcoal pleco") with the juvenile stages that could be Lda27 and L329(but more likely of lda28?)?

Do i see it right that my fish doesnt have an official L/LDA Number?

Erwin · Post by **Erwin** » 09 Oct 2003, 11:43

Hi,

please bring that "capacity" into a lower level. A good friend of mine told me once, that he only really KNOW those species which he has described. I have not yet described a new species, so I "really don't KNOW" much about a fish species.

Initially when the first L-numbers appeared it was said, that they don't had to be given just for "good" species. An L-number was created, if an individual fish couldn't be recognized as belonging to an already known species, if it came from a different area (diff. river)(e.g. L75 - L124), and if there are doubts about its belonging to an already installed L-number. So an L-number is not a serious installation as it is a species name, it had to be seen in a much more easy/fluffily way. But somehow L- and LDA-numbers became a self-upvalueing instance. And I, for instance, am taking it pretty serious before I create a new LDA-number.

Having this in mind, I would also say, that the "leopard-forktail" has not yet an "official" L- or LDA-number (L186a is not really counting in this sense).

Erwin

Papa Panaque or L329?

Papa Panaque or L329?

Re: papa Panaque?