Native otos - someone knows the sp.; brazilian otos

[Max Wagner]

hello!
does anyone know the identification of these otos

http://www.sunshinepiscicultura.com.br/oto.htm

hugs,

Max Wagner
http://www.sunshinepiscicultura.com.br

[Dave Rinaldo]

Hisonotus leucofrenatus

? for pic 01.

One of Max's pics.

[Mike_Noren]

I'd say both are Hisonotus.
Definitely not Otocinclus, in any case.

[Dave Rinaldo]

I'd say both are Hisonotus.
Definitely not Otocinclus, in any case.

Here's #02

[Mike_Noren]

Yes, I saw it. Doesn't look like an Otocinclus to me.

EDIT: I was too quick to refer #2 to Hisonotus. It's a Hypoptopomatinae but not an Otocinclus, and there are several genera besides Hisonotus it could belong to, and I don't recognize this species. Do you know where #2 was captured? If so I can try to come up with an ID for it.
Also, approximately how big is it?

[bronzefry]

Welcome to Planet Catfish, Max. I like the fish in your backyard.
Amanda

[Max Wagner]

Both were collected in a spring of a tributary of the Tiete River in central-western state of Sao Paulo ..

I've been comparing pictures of Hisonotus with "# 01, and does not look like much from them ... I'll try to shoot with details and completing the site .... the abdomen is different

thank the collaboration of all

Max Wagner

[Max Wagner]

Mike,

They are small, 2.5 to 4 cm, and the reports that I saw would be easy to playback, which does not happen in captivity, or in tanks with thousands of gallons.
Does anyone have an official photo of an H. leucofrenatus?

Max Wagner

[Mike_Noren]

Both were collected in a spring of a tributary of the Tiete River in central-western state of Sao Paulo ..

First of all, I want to make it absolutely clear that I am not an expert on any sort of catfish. That said, I think your #2 is Hisonotus insperatus:
http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1643/CI-02-23R

Both locality and unusual pigmentation pattern, with those dark saddles and the stripe in the caudal fin, are, IMO, a perfect match.

Your fish #1 is unfortunately pretty generic. It's a Hypoptopomatine, probably a Hisonotus or Pseudotocinclus. Solely based on your stated capture locality it could be Pseudotocinclus tietensis, but it doesn't really look very similar to me:
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S16 ... ci_arttext

So by exclusion #1 is probably a Hisonotus. And that's as far as I can go, I think. I'm not very familiar with Hisonotus.

EDIT: On a completely unrelated note... We've had a discussion about

Scleromystax barbatus

which lives in the Sao Paulo area, could I ask you what the approximate normal, highest, and lowest water temperatures are of the rivers in your area?

[The.Dark.One]

At first I thought number 2 was Pseudotothyris janeirensis.

[Max Wagner]

I sent an email to Britski, H. for help but got no answers yet

Had accessed the page on Pseudotocinclus basin of the Ribeira Valley, but they do not look anything like the ones here.
The dificukldade sites is that of a research Brazilians are lacking in photos and exactly why I'm wanting to mount on my site in this area ecologically maisrico in some reference photos, but find it difficult to identify what tenhomem photos.
Perhaps with your help I consigapelo least classify these two fish.
I have many pictures without identification http://www.plantasdeaquario.com/curiosidades.htm, and if you have conhecmentos alguemdo forum on other areas would be pleased to help

Thanks , Max Wagner

[Max Wagner]

Disregard the earlier text had not made the correction of the text and the translator went wrong

Mike

I sent an email to Britscki, H for help but got no answers yet

Had accessed the page on Pseudotocinclus basin of the Ribeira Valley, but they do not look anything like the ones here.
The dificukldade sites is that of a research Brazilians are lacking in photos and exactly why I'm wanting to mount on my site in this area ecologically richer in some reference photos, but find it difficult to identify what's on my photos.
Perhaps with your help I can at least classify these two fish.
I have many pictures without identification http://www.plantasdeaquario.com/curiosidades.htm, and if someone from the forum have knowledge of other areas would be pleased to help

Sorry, Max Wagner

[Mike_Noren]

At first I thought number 2 was Pseudotothyris janeirensis.

I don't think so, P. janeirensis lacks the dark saddles and the stripe in the caudal is different. To me #2 looks like a fair match to the photo in the description of H. insperatus.

I get more and more uncertain about #1. When I refreshed my memory on what Pseudotothyris looks like, I found Otothyropsis marapoama (photo], another species I'd never heard about but which is found in the area and looks much like Max's #1.

[Max Wagner]

I put new pictures to the ventral view of the fish #01
http://www.sunshinepiscicultura.com.br/oto.htm
perhaps help in identification.

Hehehe, this article is quite complete but helps those who understand the anatomy of fish .... we lay people suffer ...

Max Wagner

[Mike_Noren]

I put new pictures to the ventral view of the fish #01
http://www.sunshinepiscicultura.com.br/oto.htm
perhaps help in identification.

I suspect this individual might be a different species than these. It has different head shape and caudal pigmentation to the mottled other individuals. The tail pigmentation is similar to Hisonotus francirochai.

[Max Wagner]

Mike

They're all the same batch of collection and similar, who photographed the tail, was what was more open with the tail for the photo .... it is not easy to shoot fish, hehehe
As a similarity with the color of H francirochai until they seem asm mouth is larger than those of # 01.

What do you think?

Max Wagner

[The.Dark.One]

At first I thought number 2 was Pseudotothyris janeirensis.

I don't think so, P. janeirensis lacks the dark saddles and the stripe in the caudal is different.

Neither do I that's why I said 'at first'. I think you have ID'd them with H. insperatus and O. marapoama. Why don't you send images to the authors of those species and ask their opinion?

[Mike_Noren]

Why don't you send images to the authors of those species and ask their opinion?

Yes, I agree. These fish can only be identified by an expert, and I'm not helping.

My final guesses, right now, before I change my mind again: #1 Hisonotus sp., #2 H. insperatus. I hope Britski answers, it would be interesting to know if I was even close.

[The.Dark.One]

Why don't you send images to the authors of those species and ask their opinion?

Yes, I agree. These fish can only be identified by an expert, and I'm not helping.

Don't put yourself down Mike, I think you may have ID'd them. Sometimes even the ichthyologists can't tell from images!

[Max Wagner]

Mike and The.Dark.One

Thanks to collaboration, and we await a response from the master Britski, although he has not answered my email.
It'll just put new pictures of the belly out of the water and the mouth of the # 01, perhaps help to better define the identification.
For it would be easier because fish are possibly already studied by him.

Amanda
thank you for your warm welcome and words of praise for fish - hehehe, sorry for the delay in responding to your message.


Max Wagner

[bronzefry]

No problems. Been away a few days myself. Very interesting thread!
Amanda

[Max Wagner]

Mike and The.Dark.One

Mike and Dark

My congratulations you hit it "on the fly "..... I received a reply from the master Heraldo Britzki who confirmed that the same genus of fish is almost certain to Hisonotus.

Now I await the answer about the possibility of sending to identify species, because he said there are many details to be evaluated

Thanks,
Max Wagner

[Jools]

Hi Max,

I am not sure I understand, Dr. Britski thinks both fish are

Hisonotus

? I agreed with Mike's view that the 1st species looked a lot like Otothyropsis marapoama. In fact, I was going to ask if I could have pictures to add to the site under this designation.

For ease of further discussion, here are Max's pics again:

Species 1 is
Species 2 is (thanks Dave)

Jools

[Mike_Noren]

I still suspect the images of species 1 show two species, one of which...

...might be Otothyropsis marapoama, while the other...

...is IMO a Hisonotus similar to H. francirochai.