Bought as L173, maybe L66 or L333 white band?

[Sanplec]

Hello everyone,

About a year ago, I've bought these fish as L173, they weren't that expensive.
I've always doubted these fishes to be L173.
They're much bigger now, so hopefully you can tell me which species this fish are.
I was thinking myself these could be L66 or L333 white band or something.
Please have a look at these fish:

Fish 1:







Fish 2:







Fish 3:

[Sanplec]

By the way,

The fish on the pictures are about 7 - 9 cm

[MatsP]

That would make it

Hypancistrus sp(L401)

- but I'm terribly bad at identifying Hypancistrus.

--
Mats

[Yann]

Hi!!

very strange pattern fish...

I have no idea of what it is...never seen this before

I wouln'd exclude it to be a hybrid though

Cheers
Yann

[MatsP]

Hi!!

very strange pattern fish...

I have no idea of what it is...never seen this before

I wouln'd exclude it to be a hybrid though

Cheers
Yann

Hybrid does come to my mind as well, as it's got L129 (H. debilittera) as well as L333/L66 style features. Any idea of where it came from?

--
Mats

[Sanplec]

They came from Germany, the breeder had a basement with aquariums. I believe he has more species of Hypancistrus. I can ask more information about this breeder, but I don't think he'll admit to sell hybrids...

[Jools]

Interesting. I too have a fish I bought as L173 (from a member in Norway) which came from Glaser in Germany and was sold as such. They look a lot like your pictures.

Jools

[MatsP]

Does Glaser sell fish that is bred in Germany?

--
Mats

[HaakonH]

Interesting. I too have a fish I bought as L173 (from a member in Norway) which came from Glaser in Germany and was sold as such. They look a lot like your pictures.

Jools

That would be me ;) Glaser put together individuals they believe are L173- These are placed at trusted breeders, who then return offspring to Glaser for the world market.

In my opinion, the singled-out parents could be natural crossbreeds from the Belo Monte area. They may look like what we know as L173, but they may carry the genes of various other similar Hypancistrus forms, like i.e. L066 and L333, as well as several others without a number. The possibilities are very, very numerous. So, when these individuals are put together based on a fairly similar appearance, the offspring is likely to vary quite a lot, and then individuals like the ones seen in this thread show up.

The Hypancistrus "Lower Xingu" complex (including L399/400) may in fact be a highly variable selection of natural crossbreeds/species in the making. L173 may be among these, and since there's not enough knowledge out to give 100% certain answers we just don't know what genes and possible variations hide behind the nice exterior of so called certain L173 (and L236 for that matter).

Some breeders deliberately add H.zebra to their believed-to-be-L173 to keep their strains more like what the public would expect it to look like. It's all about money and careless experimentation.

-Haakon

[Sanplec]

Your story makes sence, but really, this is not good.
A lot hypancistrus sp. cannot be indentified thrue this
So my next question is:
Can they reproduce? I think this would be difficult too, I've read the hybrids topic.
And my catfish are not L66 or L333?

[Sanplec]

Thank you very much, I've learned a lot.
I also think it's best to keep every Hypancistrus with its own kind in a aquarium seperated!
And I also think there is a better overview.
I'm happy I can give these fish a name now
I also think it's best not to buy these hybrids, but sometimes its difficult to see which number it is at younger state.

Thank you all!

[pleco22]

Hi,

sorry to say, but these fish are not L 173 for sure. In my opinion these fish are the result of selecting special marked individuals out of Hypancistrus sp. (Gurupa) (first), (L 287) a lower Xingu form and perhaps even L 66. Perhaps, when these fish were sold at 30mm, they have looked like L 173. Someone treated you bad. Please don't mix them, you won't get any L 173 -like fish out of these.

I don't know if L 173 is a "transitional form" between H. zebra and a lower Xingu variant, but I think that this is no reason to crossbreed any hypancistrus to create a L173-like form.

...

[Jools]

Does Glaser sell fish that is bred in Germany?

Yes, they are usually marked as such too.

Jools

[Jools]

The discussion that this post started around hybridisation in loricariids more widely has been split off from this topic which should continue to centre around the ID discussion of the species pictures posted.

Split off topic on general hybridisation in plecos here : http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 78#p200578

Jools

[Yann]

Hi!!

Just to wonder but then what to do with Haakon Haagensen pic in the L173 profile if obviously it is not a 100% sure L173

Cheers
Yann

[TwoTankAmin]

I bought 7 fish at the end of last year via Glaser sold as L-173b. At the time somebody whom I trust on hypan. ID bought the same fish. They ranged in size from about 1.5-1.75in. for 5 of them and the last two were about 2.25in. TL.

There are pics from about that time (from Glaser I presume) on a for sale thread here. However, I have never taken pics as they went straight into a grow out tank and have been there since. Some time in the not too distant future I have to move them to larger quarters and intend to get photos then which I will post.

[Jools]

Just to wonder but then what to do with Haakon Haagensen pic in the L173 profile if obviously it is not a 100% sure L173

Haakon also suggested this to me sometime ago. In fairness to him, it has been me that has not made a decision about it. I think I would put it as H. sp(x) with a note to say this is what "some suppliers" sell as L173.

The same problem appears also to exist with L236.

Jools

[pleco22]

Hi,
I have visited Aquarium Glaser several times. When it comes to rare hypancistrus, like L 173, 236, 345 the amount of imported wildcaught fish was very low, sometimes only one. Often exporters in Brasil send some unknown fish together with this rare L-Numbers. So you have to pick the rare L-Numbers out of some rare Hypancistrus without any number. In my opinion, the staff at Glaser is very careful selecting these fish. Giving rare species to experienced breeders is a good idea, better than selling singles and spread them worldwide. The chance of mixing slightly different populations is high, but that risk appears also with L 66, L 333, L 400 usw. (but doesn't matter ???)

In my opinion L 173 varies from rapid to rapid and from import to import, like L 66 and other wormlined Hypancistrus. Problem is: Determination of Hypancistrus is not possible with the L-Number system. It doesn't help, because the holotype is a picture and the habitat is mostly a verbal message of the catcher. (sometimes they tell a wrong habitat to save there earnings). So I will not blame Glaser for selling fish they don't really know - it is time to think in a new way to keep the wormlined Hypancistrus seperate in the future. The problem is not, that Haakons L 173 is perhaps not "the real" one. The problem is, that it is very difficult for him to find more fish of that line to breed them and to reduce the risk of hybridisation.

[Yann]

@pleco22

you have probably have heard the rumors regarding those fish labelled as L173b at Glaser...
the more i see youngs from these the more I am conviced this is indeed true...
Such high pattern variability among a population isn't a very good sign of true blooding otherwise you would see it in all of these population
Pattern variability exist but not to such level, I mean the youngs are totally different from the adults...something is wrong there...

Cheers
Yann

[pleco22]

@ Yann,

sorry I have only heard, that some people say, that Gl*ser has sold H. sp. "santarem" (now L 450) as L 173b. I think this is just a rumor and not true. If so someone has betrayed Gl*ser, because these Fishes has been tankbred. I have L 173 and L 450 for myself - they are very different, not only pattern, body shape too. So if Gl*ser has sold L 450 as L 173 it is a bad mistake, but you can't blame them for beeing betrayed.

As documented in DATZ 7/2009 - L 173 varies a lot. I know this phenomenon from my L 287. I have raised over 80 for now, and every farrow is totally different. Sometimes darker, sometimes with more white, pattern shows the full range. If I seperate these fish, I could make 3 L-Numbers out of this variant.

So is L 173. I have seen some with some with yellow/dark yellow lines instead of white ones. Two month later the same fish were white again.

Datz 7/2009 is the first report of this phenomenon. All other pictures show only a stunning one-of-a-hundred fish. This is a problem for all rare Hypancistrus. One Picture is not enough to define a variant.

[apistomaster]

I think there are many variants of Hypancistrus which will eventually be shown to be fewer species than the excessive number of L-numbers implies when sorted out by adult size, shapes and hopefully, some consistent molecular genetic characteristics.
If one can obtain imported fish which are extremely similar and from within a certain range you have a good chance of raising a pure line of that species variant but unless you collect them yourself or receive them from a very knowledgeable field collector involved with scientific work with these fish, how can we really know what we have?
With variation within a species of Killiefish which come from specific locations which may be an isolated seasonal bodies of water, Killiefish hobbyists use collection codes and avoid crosses with other populations and preserve its distinctiveness but this is much more difficult with Hypancistrus species.

L333 is an L-number which I think is actually represented by a good half dozen variants.

[Yann]

HI!!

I agree that fish can differ quite a lot from one to another, but this phenomon hasn't been seen in fish such as L66, zebra, L260 etc...this has only been seen on those L173, L399/400 etc... which I find very strange...my thoughts would be that you would see such thing iin every species...
Even a fish like Hypancistrus sp L340 which is know to differ quite a lot from the original picture (LDA19) doesn't differ from one to another as much as these would...

Sorry but if the juvies differ that much from the adult...we can legitimately ask ourself if these are not hybrid..."natural" or not...it could even be caught naturally but happened because of human intervention.

I would love to see a genetic screening on these to see the mess these fish can be...

Cheers
Yann

[pleco22]

Hi,
good point apistomaster:

"L333 is an L-number which I think is actually represented by a good half dozen variants."

This is the key that leads to new thinking about hypancistrus. We got a single l-number i.e. L 333 and find many different fish. Same is with L 66 and of course L 173. Only Hypancistrus zebra and L 174 differs at a very low level.

Perhaps all other forms are no species, they are just small populations. Naturally mixed over hundreds or thousands of years. From rapid to rapid. From pool to pool. A drift of genes, or a flow. A transition between H. zebra an a L 66 type leads to all other known variants. L 173 is more influenced by H. zebra polulations. L400 is more influenced by L 66. But all variants rest upon two or three species. This is just a theory but for me it is thinkable.

This means for us: Don't mix different looking Hypancistrus, even when they are sold under a single L-Number.

pleco22

[macvsog23]

Hi

i have 10 fish i brought as L066 and they are spawning at under 3" and look not a bit like L066
I think they came from germany.
I totaly agree about the amount of Hypans that may just be slight changes in nature and From my point I would say only 4 or 5 true Sp are about with most L numbers being hyb,s from either nature or man

[apistomaster]

Your Hypancistrus look a lot like L333 to me but I have trouble believing L333 can spawn at only about 3 inches. I have about 300 L333 on hand at any given time. I don't know how long theyir minimum breeding size and age is but they can reach 2-3/4 inches in as little as 10 months and the wild breeders are closer to 4-1/2 inches an over 6 years old. They have been breeding for more than 3 years. I think they may have a chance of spawning at about 2-1/2 years old but until I breed some I have raised I can't know for certain how early they can begin breeding.
I also think, especially among the Rio Xingu Hypancistrus that there are far more L-numbers than actually valid species. Many in the L333 group go by various names but I believe most are merely variants of the same species and not hybrids at all.

[macvsog23]

Hi totaly agree about variants
these are not L333 eyes to big and tail is forked also belly is very plain





Regards Bob

[apistomaster]

Then I guess the question still, what are these?
Subadult L333 up o 3 inches from my breeders retain a slender build and deeply forked tails but the adults look quite a bit different. They become a stockier fish without such a deeply forked tail.

[macvsog23]

Then I guess the question still, what are these?
Subadult L333 up o 3 inches from my breeders retain a slender build and deeply forked tails but the adults look quite a bit different. They become a stockier fish without such a deeply forked tail.

Hi

I agree sub adult L333 look a bit like the fish I have but they are just that sub adults these are spawning and adults.


My personal Opinion is that Hypans are a very limited group with several 100 different patterns derived from 4or 5 main patterns.
This is the main cause of the problems with identifying these fish, we are looking at each pattern as a separate species we should be using L numbers as a Pattern id not a separate species id.
I am sure we will find that no more than 5 to 10 identifiable species are finally scientifically described; the rest will be natural hybrids and morphs.

For me the main problem is that Hypans are possibly one of the most easy to keep and spawn fish of the entire family. This is bought about by size, diet and other aspects.
The relative ease with which these fish adapt to a small tank and living in small groups would lead me to believe they are naturally living in not dissimilar conditions in the wild.
If we study other groups of organisms we see the same situation ie small groups becoming isolated and developing patterns, behaviour, life styles habits and activities to suit the environment. The best example of this can be seen in Homo sapiens, don’t tell me that just by looking at a Asiatic and a Caucasian you would say they are the same species.

And as for Dogs well over 100 different typs but all the same Species.
The list is endless.

[jac]

To me they could be L400 species. They've got quite a forked tale, pattern an size of the fish could point in the L400 direction.

[pleco22]

Hello,

please consider hybrids to specify this fish. In my opinion it could be a mixture between L 400 and L 333. Problem is, they are not as nice as usual l-400 and l-333. I have visited several shops in Germany - hybridization is getting a big problem for Hypancistrus.

Regards