L66 breed almost all have damaged pectoral fins

[GoldWing]

This is for the second time that i have a nest jong hypancistrus with lots of individuals who have damaged pectoral fins. The first time it hapend with other L46 and now L66. The where all left in the cave with daddy. And the L46 had a smaler cave than the L66.
They reside in breeding rack of 3 tanks of one meter and a one mtr biofilter. each tank has also a own iternal bio unit.
The water is 29 celcius. See photo for example. Is this something that hapens often? can i avoid this?

[pleco22]

Hello,
usually this kind of deformation occurs, because of bacteria infecting the fry. But it is uncommon, that all of them shows this deformation. Please tell, what you do to avoid bacteria infection. Perhaps, something goes wrong. Keep in Mind, that the first days, young hypancistrus need very good conditions.

[GoldWing]

thanks for the quick resons.
I dont take special messures against bacteria, when i have eggs or fry.
Just regular suck of the dirt att the bottom of the tank. i dont use any substrat on the bottom. i do regular partal water changes. I have a UV set , but not in use on my breedingrack. should i use it?
What should i monitor in the future?

[MatsP]

I'm pretty sure MOST people who breed plecos recommend that you should have sustrate, or that you wipe the bottom of the tank at least once a day to avoid buildup of "bacteria slime".

--
Mats

[GoldWing]

But what is the advantage of botom substrate against avoiding bacterial infection on fry? I tought a naked tank would be easyer to keep clean.

I wil start to spend even more attenion on hygiene, but my tanks are already clean do. hope it helps to prevent problems next time. Because the alpha male L46 is fathering eggs again.

[MatsP]

It is covered in this article (among other places, but I think this is one of the first articles that I know of that mentions this):
http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworl ... cle_id=319
(See section "maintaining the fry")

--
Mats

[TwoTankAmin]

I would never want to disagree with Shane nor any of the very experienced catfish folks on this site, but I feel I should in this case. I have been spawning a number of plecos over the past few years to include common tank bristlenose, zebras, contradens and L-134. The latter 3 have only been bred in bare bottom tanks and most of the fry are left in the breeder tanks for the first 1-3 months when some are moved into grow out tanks which are also bare bottom. I have had virtually no problems with deformities save for one spawn of contradens which had deformed pectorals (on just one side) on a number, but not all of the fry. I have had about 6 to 8 spawns up to that point and a couple since and all were normal save that one instance.

I have never had problems with film build up in any pleco tanks nor in any of the other tanks I keep bare bottom. I would note that all of the bare bottom tanks have the bottom scrubbed anyhwere from as few as 3 to as many as 8 times a year.

It is my understanding that these type of deformities in fry can be the result of any one or combo of three things: 1. Poor quality water from the tap or due to tank maint./wcs being neglected. 2. A lack of certain minerals such as calcium in the diet/water. 3. Genetics.

[racoll]

It is my understanding that these type of deformities in fry can be the result of any one or combo of three things: 1. Poor quality water from the tap or due to tank maint./wcs being neglected. 2. A lack of certain minerals such as calcium in the diet/water. 3. Genetics.

I guess this is a similar problem to the "snub-nose" fry seen from time to time.

I don't think genetics is a likely cause, as often these deformities occur in fry from wild-caught parents, and deformed parents have also produced non-deformed offspring.

I would imagine, as you say, poor water quality and/or certain dietary deficiencies cause the problem.

Some people also believe it could be mechanical stress related to how long the larvae were left in the egg, and this could also be a plausible factor.

[Janne]

I agree with the last 2 posts, deformities in fry both in fins and snubnose is caused by contaminents and low oxygen level in the bloodstream preventing cells to develope correctly. Poor water quality and bacteria pressure is the main reason, maybe in few cases where food are lacking some trace elements/vitamines but even using the same food to all the fry some will sometimes show deformities and others not. If one aquarist use bare bottom tanks and it works well and another use substrate are of less importance, the difference is not the substrate. The difference is how we maintain the aquariums, there are not 2 aqaurist's in the world that have exactly the same water qualities/parameters and everyone is maintaining their aqauriums different. Substrate helps for these that not have the same possibilities, circumstances, skills or whatever the reason would be to not have success with bare bottom tanks like another aquarist may have.

It's not possible to say, what works well for one person will work good for another when there are so many other factors involved.

Janne

[Jools]

I appreciate that the topic is about pectoral fins, but why would these factors create the snub nose thing? I think what I am asking is that other deformities seem to be much rarer. I see quite a lot of

Hypancistrus

sold now with this damage (in fact, actually labelled as such in one case whic was both good and bad). So why are other deformities other than snub nose rarer if they have the same cause?

Jools

[Janne]

I would say that snubnose is much rarer then deformed or even missing pectoral fins in fry, fry and youngsters with deformed fins is rare to find as adults but not snubnosed specimens... why? I have to guess, higher mortality in fry with deformed fins, aquarist maybe not accept to buy a specimen missing a fin or with pectoral fins looking like a corkscrew but accept a shortnosed variant. I still think the reason for both deformities is a disturbed development and growth of cells in the early stage of life, blood is the transporter of the necessary elements to provide cell growth.

Janne

[Jools]

Maybe; it is good we agree it is not genetic.

Jools

[grokefish]

Does this happen in nature?

[MatsP]

Does this happen in nature?

One would think not very often - but I wouldn't say it's impossible either. The key, as I see it, is that in captivity, the water quality provided in a tank, is not as good as in nature - but if water conditions were the same, I'd expect the fish to have the same problem - it's just that those fish probably don't make it into our wholesalers and shops.

The same applies to food - we supply food in the tank, from whatever source that may be. It's not the same freshness and the same variation as you get in nature.

Both of these factors are difficult to replicated accurately in captivity.

--
Mats

[Janne]

Yes it happens in nature, but in rivers and lakes still untouched by humans it's extremely rare you find deformed species of fish, in habitats with pollutions and affected by humans it's much more common to find deformed species of fish.

Many fish species is specilized in a certain kind of food, the variation is very low but they still develope to nice adults, other fish eat one kind of food under a certain time of the year and another kind of food under other periods etc. there are all types represented among fishes.

There are some places here I would want the local university to work with a project, some areas show a much higher percentage of certain diseases among fish species under the dry season. These habitats are affected of both humans and cattles, the fishes looks terrible and deformed (different deformation then we discussed above). Only certain species of loricariids are affected so it starts to be a problem in nature too and not only in aquariums.

Janne

[GoldWing]

some more info to keep the discusion going

The values in the tankrack are : NO3= 25, NO2= 0, GH= >14, KH = 10, Ph= 6.8
Tapwater values: NO3= 0, NO2= 0, GH= >7, KH = 15, Ph= 6.4
i use tap water to do partial refil.
this happens almost every day. May tankrack settup is done this way.
Ik can suck out the food rest en poe, with a tube directly in to the sewer.
all the water is automaticly replaced by a floater in de biofilter,
is also comes via thermostatic valve for the correct temperature.
If there is any need, i can also use large valve to do let larger amount of water out of the tanks straight in the sewer.
This is also automatic refilled via the same system.

The way i handle the fry: if the male has eggs in his cave, i leave the fish and eggs in the cave, but move them to
a breeder. this is to have more controy, to feed the fry the early days.
The breeder is al small plastic aquarium that i place in the tankrack , it has an airlift on the left(intake from the racks water), and a raster on the other side to let the water back in to the large tank.
insure oxygen en waterflow. maybe this is where i go wrong. and i should take out the male and the cave in a later stage.
en leave them in the strong current of the powerhead were the cave remains normaly
see some photos to accompany the clarification

[MatsP]

It's probably not important, but why is your GH higher in the tank than in the tap-water? I would have thought it should change...

--
Mats

[GoldWing]

done the test again, tought i made an error reading the strips.
but same result. strange indeed. there should be nothing in the cirquit that
can effect this. Something to look in to. suggestions?

[Janne]

The values in the tankrack are : NO3= 25, NO2= 0, GH= >14, KH = 10, Ph= 6.8
Tapwater values: NO3= 0, NO2= 0, GH= >7, KH = 15, Ph= 6.4

Are you using an electronic instrument for the pH and is it calibrated correctly? With a kH such high I would expect a pH more close to 8,0 then 6,4 if you not add any kind of acids to your water. However, the readings of certain parameters can give some tips, for example a high level of nitrate is showing that you have a high bioload of bacteria making a good work but also consuming a lot of oxygen and producing a lot of carbondioxide (which lower the pH in your readings). You have a very nice setup and installation, why don't you change more water in the system, with a timer and a solenoid valve you can change a little every day keeping the nitrate easily under 10.

Throw the strips and buy drip test's that is much easier to handle and is more accurate. You have put quite much money on your system so you maybe have afford to buy an electronic pH/ECC instrument, when you start to use it you can't be without it. With time you learn to read not only the pH and the conductivity, you will learn that the small changes each time you measure shows other changes in your water too.

Janne

[grokefish]

I am no genius on genetics so maybe someone can help me out here.
If it was genetic would they all have the same problem?
Surely they are not exact replicas of each other or how would evolution work?

[Janne]

One more thing I saw now in your pictures, you use copper tubes for refilling the water and with a low pH in your tap you will disolve copper into the water, copper even in small amounts is toxic and affect the fish negatively or kill it if the level gets to high. Use PP or PVC tubes and connections as much you can, in our facility copper is forbidden but we have very low pH in the origin water from the well.

Janne

[Janne]

I am no genius on genetics so maybe someone can help me out here.
If it was genetic would they all have the same problem?
Surely they are not exact replicas of each other or how would evolution work?

If it was genetic you would see this deformities in every batch of fry, maybe not all fry but always some would have this deformities. Why it's not genetic, you can breed the same couple for years without any deformities at all among the offspring, suddenly you get one batch there all more or less are deformed like we have discussed. The deformities don't occur with enough regularity, if you make changes in the maintain of the aqaurium and the same breeding couple that before produced fry with deformities will sudddenly start to produce fry without any deformities. The conclusion must be that it's an external disturbing in the development of the fry.

Janne

[GoldWing]

using cupper , maybe its not so good, i know.
But dont think using plastic on the rack is helpfull if the rest of the house installation is made of cupper. if the water in the pipes dont stay for ages in the pipes, there is no problem.

i also have a nest of 7 L46 , few weeks old.
one of those juveniels has also the pectoral fin problem.
found some L46 with the short nose also in prev batch.

done test , PH and PPM with electronic mesurement, got those already from breeding discus in the past . Got an Rev Osmose filter somewhere to.
could use that if needed.

[Janne]

if the water in the pipes dont stay for ages in the pipes, there is no problem.

Depends how frequent you change water, between each changes there will always standing water in your copper tubes because you don't use these tubes for other places in your house. I mean if you take a shower each day, dishes etc. all these tubes connected to these places will not have standing water for so many hours. If you change water in your aquariums 1-2 times per week you will have standing water in the copper tubes between each water change for many hours or days. The more you change water the less copper will be disolved, still not the best solution if your pH is so low as you measure.

done test , PH and PPM with electronic mesurement, got those already from breeding discus in the past .

Are you using an electronic instrument for the pH and is it calibrated correctly? With a kH such high I would expect a pH more close to 8,0 then 6,4 if you not add any kind of acids to your water. However, the readings of certain parameters can give some tips, for example a high level of nitrate is showing that you have a high bioload of bacteria making a good work but also consuming a lot of oxygen and producing a lot of carbondioxide (which lower the pH in your readings).

Janne

[MatsP]

I am no genius on genetics so maybe someone can help me out here.
If it was genetic would they all have the same problem?
Surely they are not exact replicas of each other or how would evolution work?

Functional changing in genetics is rather rare. Your kids, for example, look a bit like you and a bit like their mum, right? If they look more like the milkman, you may need to consider a paternity test...

There are certainly random mutations from time to time, but most of these are small (or non-functional - meaning you can't actually notice any difference). But because the number of genes is rather large (about 3 billion base-pairs in a human - but some of these are "non-coding" or "junk", so they do "nothing"), it is entirely possible to have a some changes, and still not notice much. Of course, if there is a random change in the bit that makes Haemoglobin, so that the blood comes out blue and can't carry oxygen well, it's likely that this change will die out quite quickly - like before the egg hatches, in a fish...

--
Mats

[Bas Pels]

@ copper

I happened to study effects of copper exposure for fish (a cichlid) when a student. One would assume a university does have quite a lot of waterflow (chemists use tap water to create a vacuum for suction in order to get a quick filtration, for instance) but the lowest value measured was 8 ppm

Quite high, as the highest value tested was 100 ppm. The fish for these experiments were raised in copper free water, and turned out to grow much slower than their siblings i9ntended for other experiments (which grew exposed to copper)

Copper free raised fish had more MSH (a hormone) in their blood which also carried less acetate groups. MSH can have 2 - but fish exposed to 10 ppm copper quite a large part (I don't remember the numbers) only had 1 - and a bit even had 0

This can be interesting, or not, but back to keeping fish - I intended to demonstrate that even copper piping which has quite a high flow through can infect the fishes

But, on the other hand, my piping does contain copper as well - but I'm not breeding Hypancistrus

[Janne]

But, on the other hand, my piping does contain copper as well - but I'm not breeding Hypancistrus

But your pH is maybe little higher then 6.4? The lower the pH is the more copper are disolved, a pH of 8,0 has extremely little effect on copper tubes compared with a pH lower then 7.0.

There are other studies made too concerning copper and toxity, I can't say they support your study But, fish do grow faster and better in higher conductivity then they do in low conductivity but breeders don't add copper, even that copper is a trace element we all need (in extremely small amounts).

Janne

[AndrewC]

Where i come from my tap water is very soft, after sitting in a bucket for 24hrs, it has a ph of 7.4, a kh of 1 & gh of 1, but it also has a high phosphate level, the deepest blue on the test kit i was using.
I found from experience if i have high stocking levels and do not do daily water changes my ph will crash, so now i do not stock my tanks heavily and at least on my fry tanks/ breeding tanks, i do daliy water changes.

My point is, i was told that my Water Authorities add phosphate to my tap water to stop the soft water affecting the pipes.
Maybe the problem is more what the water authoritys add to the water, than the copper pipes themselves corroding the pipes ?

[Jools]

i was told that my Water Authorities add phosphate to my tap water

As a fellow Scottish water user I hear this and other similar statements. I really don't mean this aggressively, but told by who? I have not been able to get reliable info on this.

Jools

[AndrewC]

From what i remember it was on another forum and since then i have probably repeated it.
I think i remember who told me, but i will check it out.

I did manage to get a water report sent out to me by the local authoritys, but trying to understand it was way over my head, you need a chemistry degree to understand it.
It was just to see what they did put in my water.

Edit;
Sorry Jools, i can't find the post as i read about the statement on Plecofanatics which is now gone.