L66 breed almost all have damaged pectoral fins

[Janne]

My point is, i was told that my Water Authorities add phosphate to my tap water to stop the soft water affecting the pipes.

Water authorities add Ammonium phosphate (converts to Chloramine) and Sodium hypochlorite (increase the pH), the higher pH increase the lifetime of the distribution system for the water and Chloramine keep the bacteria level under control. Everyone that use tap water or well water in their houses and to their aqaurium's has different water, even in the same city with the same distributor of water have different characteristic in their tap water depending on the lenght the water are distributed. Everything we put or are in contact with the water in the aquarium change the waters characteristic, this is why it's so difficult to compare one aqaurist's success with another with less success... we can only give advices but in the end it's up to each aquarist to find what works best for them under their special circumstances.

Janne

[pleco_breeder]

Hello,

Since everyone appears to be in agreement that this is an environmental factor, something in the water, it seems it would make sense to try running a carbon block or one of the organic adsorption resins (or both) on the system while eggs or young fry are present. It couldn't necessarily answer what caused the deformities, but may actually stop them. After that, if interested enough to pursue an answer, it would be as simple as working backward with a water analysis (from the tank and not the tap) and selective adsorption resins. It's obvious that whatever is causing the issue will likely be repetitive till at least a general solution is found. I'd start by adding a carbon block.

Larry

[AndrewC]

I have had my time with deformed fry & fry deaths, and have sent fry sent to Stirling Univeristy for autopsy, and was told apart from them being dead, there was no sign of disease or abnormalities.
Over time and with getting more experience with dealing with fry, i am now only getting random deaths every so often and no more deformed fry, but i can still have one pair of hypancistrus not have any fry deaths, while another pair suddenly looses 3/4s of its brood over the first few weeks, one one day, one more another day, etc.

It is really frustrating when you hear water quality might be the reason, seeing what work i do on my tanks each day.
Sometimes i think it is down to a poor male hatching out the eggs, or even the female producing the eggs, but i am probably just cluyching at straw.
If it was down to water quality, how could i have had a pair of zebras breed every month for a year back in 2008 and loose 95% of their fry in their first few weeks after leaving the cave, and at the same time i had a pair of L333 in a tank two above them, breed every month for a year as well and i got only two or three dead fry from that pair over a year.
I had to move on the L333 pair because they were breeding me out of tanks and it was the L333 pair that made me feel not so bad a fish keeper and kept me going.

[Janne]

If it was down to water quality, how could i have had a pair of zebras breed every month for a year back in 2008 and loose 95% of their fry in their first few weeks after leaving the cave, and at the same time i had a pair of L333 in a tank two above them, breed every month for a year as well and i got only two or three dead fry from that pair over a year.

If these 2 aquariums was connected with a sump and using the same recirculation water they should have very similar water quality but not exactly the same, if these 2 aquariums not was connected and using the same water the water was and will always be very different. The total bioload incl. bacterias, circulation and movement of water, temperature, furnitures and water changes together with other maintaining like feeding etc. affect a waters characteristic. Even different levels in the water column in the aquarium is different if the circulation not are strong enough

What Larry suggest can help for some aquarist's and for others not, this type of filtermaterial will absorb organic contaminents (not bacteria's), very little minerals but still there can be other factors that affect the characteristic of the water. The only way to make a water exactly the same in one place to another is to create a pure 18,3 megaohms water, store it in a tank of material that not have any affect on the water and without contact with the air... as soon you open the lid and let oxygen in the water change the characteristic. Water is a living materia.

Janne

[dw1305]

Hi all,

it has a ph of 7.4, a kh of 1 & gh of 1, but it also has a high phosphate level, the deepest blue on the test kit i was using.

This is because the water company add phosphate to the water to control "plumbosolvency" from lead pipes. The permitted lead levels in the EU for drinking water are fairly low (50 microgram/l), and will soon be 25 and eventually 10 microgram/l (10 ppb). The phosphates are dosed as either orthophosphoric acid, or more usually as a solution of monosodium phosphate. These work by forming insoluble lead phosphate(s). Once the lead phosphate layer has been established in pipework it can normally be maintained by a continuous lower dose of around 0.5mg/l phosphate.

cheers Darrel

[AndrewC]

Janne
I understand what you saying, and it is the best explation i have had about some of my tanks having no problems, while other tanks can be a nightmare.
They are all individually filtered with Eheim cannister filters (sixteen in total) and also internal filters and my tap water is filtered by a hma unit, then preheated and aerated in food grade tubs before water changes.

I did try Seachems Purigen for a few months in 2008 before but felt it wasn't making a difference; http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/catalo ... roduct3201

I am going to try using carbon in the filters as Larry said.
Are the carbon filters you get for Fluval 2 internal filters any good; http://www.petsathome.com/shop/fluval-2 ... agen-16314
Or would i be better using a product such as Eheim Ehfiaktiv Activated Carbon in my cannister filters; http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/catalo ... roduct2616

[Janne]

I think it's much more effective and cheaper to use this kind of carbon filter http://www.avonsoft.com/Treatment/filte ... ilters.htm direct on your incomming tap water, if you have a tap you only use for your aquariums you can install it only for this purpose and the filter will last much longer.

Janne

[AndrewC]

Janne
You have picked me up wrong, i already have a carbon pre filter on my hma unit, these ones; http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HMA-CBR2-REPLACEM ... 25584f362b

What i am going to also try is carbon filtration on the tanks as well and was wondering wether the pads for internal filters are any use, over getting activated carbon for cannister filters, the pads would be easier to remove every so often to renew tyhem, rather than opening up cannister filters every time i need to renew the carbon.

[Janne]

Ok, I didn't know what a hma unit was
I think it may be overkill to use carbon in the filter if you already use a carbon filter for your incomming water, if there are something you want to take out from the water you are already doing that. Depending how much water you use and the amount of organic contaminents you have in your tap water the filter cartridge need to be changed just before it's saturated, the general rule from the producer is every 6 months but depending on the water chemistry and the amount of filtered water it can be everything from a few weeks up to a year. If the carbon filter is saturated it will instead release the bounded organic material back to the water, sometimes in higher concentrations then it is in the original water. I guess that is the same for the Heavy Metal filter cartridge, have never used one and have no experience of these.

If the hma filter works as it should and you change the carbon cartridge before it's saturated it should be enough, if you add more activated carbon in your filters for the aquarium water you will also change the filter capacity. Good bacteria's needs organic waste products and these will be absorbed in your activated carbon that will start to work as a biological filter after a while, maybe with less total area then your other filter material. The best thing to do with water is that always prepare the water before use, you use a hma filter which is good, if you need to take away something else you do that before use with a filter suited for the contaminent you will get rid of. If you need to increase or lower any parameter such pH, alcalinity, general hardness etc. you do that before use. In the aquarium you only use biological filter and each time you change water you change with "perfect" water, everything you do in the aquarium when you add something... everything from gravel, furniture, food or filtermaterial will change your waters charactere in one way or another.


Janne

[GoldWing]

just an idea that came to mind.
Could it be that the larvea, the jong frey, since it is so fragile...
being nurced by an overprotective male. and being so delicate, he presses to hard on them while protecting.and creates damaged fins on the fry.
Or does this happens also if eggs are raissed artifical?
Plausible or not?

[Janne]

It happens even with artificial hatching of the eggs, it doesn't matter if the father take care of eggs or fry or if the aquarist do it.

Janne

[Bas Pels]

But, on the other hand, my piping does contain copper as well - but I'm not breeding Hypancistrus

But your pH is maybe little higher then 6.4? The lower the pH is the more copper are disolved, a pH of 8,0 has extremely little effect on copper tubes compared with a pH lower then 7.0.

There are other studies made too concerning copper and toxity, I can't say they support your study But, fish do grow faster and better in higher conductivity then they do in low conductivity but breeders don't add copper, even that copper is a trace element we all need (in extremely small amounts).

Janne

I think you are right on both points BUT

The universety is/was in Nijmegen where I now live - and the pH is almost identical - ~7.8

@ results - the problem with this kind of studies is that far too much parameters might influence the results. The artificial water was very nearly identical to the tap water (minus copper, obviously) so hardness can not have influenced growth

Still growth was not wat the study was about, it weas about the chemical chances due to heavy metal poisoning - the effect on MSH

[Janne]

Copper is much more toxic in soft water (low conductivity) then it's in hard water (high conductivity), studies have been made that fish exposed for a certain level of copper in water with very small amount of calcium carbonate have a much higher mortality then the same species of fish in water with the same level of copper in a water with a high amount of calcium carbonate. If your tap water at the university is hard it may affected your results of the study, breeders use calcium carbonate for better growth and not copper. High pH indicate the water is harder and a low pH that it's softer, the most common salt in hard water is calcium but no rule without exceptions, a hard water can have a low pH too. Water act as a living materia and is very sensitive for exposure from everything it touch.

Then you have to consider that all species of fishes have some sort of adaptation to their natural soroundings, it's not for sure one species of fish will react like another species. For example, a fish in a river with very soft water grow much faster then a fish in an aquarium, even if you add calcium carbonate or like in your study copper. There are many things to consider when we discuss water.

Janne

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Copper is much more toxic in soft water (low conductivity) then it's in hard water (high conductivity)

I tend to agree with Janne and whilst I don't know why the fin damage occurs, I think it is almost certainly a water quality issue.

If I was worried about water quality with regard to copper Cu (or lead Pb) I would be using a water conditioner containing EDTA or other chelator. I think this may be a weakness in AndrewC's very extensive water treatment, both the carbon filtration and HMA unit may at times be exchanging metals back into the water supply (particularly if your water supply is iron (Fe) rich?). The advantage of EDTA is that it is more strongly bound to Cu or Pb ions than to Ca2+ etc. A low dose of "Prime" or similar or EDTA (or DPTA etc.) would be a useful back up to the other water treatment.

Another possibility would be to potentially chelate any metal ions with humic substances ("DOC", from initial peat filtration or Indian Almond/Oak leaves etc.), and have some plants somewhere in the system. I use rainwater in the tanks and don't add a conditioner, but I used to work on the biological remediation of landfill leachate, and combined microbial and phytoremediation is much more effective than microbial filtration on its own.

cheers Darrel

[Janne]

combined microbial and phytoremediation is much more effective than microbial filtration on its own.

This is very good, in the past I used higher plants in my central filter (only the roots in the filter tank). If the plant thrives there will not be any measurable nitrate or extremely low levels, the plants uptake of other nutrients like heavy metals is just plusable and nothing I was thinking on at that time.

Janne

[AndrewC]

High pH indicate the water is harder and a low pH that it's softer, the most common salt in hard water is calcium but no rule without exceptions, a hard water can have a low pH too. Janne

Never knew hard water could have a low ph, always thought it would have a high ph.

I found the exact opposite with my tap water.
When i used a RO Unit, the water coming out of it had a ph of 6.7.
I used Kents RO Right for to add minerals to the water, and i also used; bicarbonate of soda and epsom salts, to increase the kh & gh.

But when i raised the kh & gh to 1 degree, my ph went up at 7.5.
Then when i raised the kh & gh to 2 degrees, my ph went up to 7.8.
I stopped raising the kh & gh at this point and used the water with a ph of 7.5 and 1 kh & 1 gh.

I was just looking for water with a little more buffering in my water for raising fry in, and in the end stopped using the ro unit, as my tap water has a ph of 7.4 and a kh & gh of 1 degree, so couldn't see the point.


Edit

The TDS of my tap water is always around 67.

[Janne]

I used Kents RO Right for to add minerals to the water, and i also used; bicarbonate of soda and epsom salts, to increase the kh & gh.
But when i raised the kh & gh to 1 degree, my ph went up at 7.5.
Then when i raised the kh & gh to 2 degrees, my ph went up to 7.8.
I stopped raising the kh & gh at this point and used the water with a ph of 7.5 and 1 kh & 1 gh.

Yes, of course the pH increase, you increased the kH (alcalinity), kH and GH is not the same thing, these are 2 different "hardness" that also affect the water different.

Janne

[AndrewC]

Janne
I know that increasing the gh will not affect the ph.
That it is increasing the kh that will raise the ph.

My point is i did not expect the ph to rise so high, so quickly, with only the two tea spoons of bi-carbonate added to 50g of ro water.

[Bas Pels]

RO water does not buffer pH changes at all

further, pH has a logarithmic scale - 10 times more concentration equals a pH change of 1 - from 8 to 9, or below 7 from 5 to 4, for instanca

2 tablespoons - that is ~ 5 gram or a tenth of a mole

50 gallon is ~ 200 l water, and therefore the ph could raise from ~ 6 to 10 or 11 (too lazy to do the precize maths). However, the stuff is not a strong base, so that would lower the pH significantly, to 9, I think

[Janne]

The RO membrane removes all ions and comes out neutral pH 7,0 When there are no buffer what so ever in this water it will react on the smallest change.

For example, you wrote that the pH was 6,7 in your RO water, your RO water reacted on the carbon dioxid in the surroundings, if you had areated this water most of the disolved carbon dioxid in the water would dissapear back to the air and the pH would increase to 7,0.

That is the advantage with RO water, it's so easy to manipulate with very little efforts.

Janne

[Bas Pels]

The RO membrane removes all ions and comes out neutral pH 7,0 When there are no buffer what so ever in this water it will react on the smallest change.

For example, you wrote that the pH was 6,7 in your RO water, your RO water reacted on the carbon dioxid in the surroundings, if you had areated this water most of the disolved carbon dioxid in the water would dissapear back to the air and the pH would increase to 7,0.

That is the advantage with RO water, it's so easy to manipulate with very little efforts.

Janne

I'm sorry, Janne, but this is not true

If you aerate RO water, more carbon dioxid will dissolve. Water in equilibrium with the air contains ~5 mg carbon dioxid per liter, and has a pH of ~6 (again, I'm too lazy to do the maths)

A good example of water in equilibrium with the air is rain. After all, it is formed in the air. Collect some rain, and measure it.

If you get 7, your device is not well

[Janne]

Yes you are right, it was a bad example. I only wanted to show that the outcoming water from the RO will react with the carbon dioxide in the air, if the RO water not was in contact with the air the pH should be ~7,0. Aeration only helps if the amount of Co2 is higher in the water then it's in the air, it will increase the pH but never reach neutral.

Janne

[dw1305]

Hi all,

If you aerate RO water, more carbon dioxide will dissolve. Water in equilibrium with the air contains ~5 mg carbon dioxide per litre, and has a pH of ~6 (again, I'm too lazy to do the maths)

You don't need to do the exact maths, this is close enough. The initial H+ and OH- ions are at pH7 (the negative log of the hydrogen ion conc.), but CO2 is soluble giving a dilute acidic solution: CO2 + H2O <--> H2CO3.

I'll put the chemistry in (below), but this image is probably more useful.



The "weights" on either side of the balance can be of any size, for the pH it is the balance ~ the ratio of ions that matters. This is also why adding a compound like sodium bisulphate ((NaHSO4) used to lower pH) doesn't really help for soft water fish, it just adds more mass to the "lowers the pH" end of the equation.

I just measure conductivity, rather than pH, in the tanks.

cheers Darrel

The buffering of kH by calcium carbonate (CaCO3). The acid and conjugated base are carbonic acid and bicarbonate.

CaCO3, or calcium carbonate is insoluble in H2O and is the main constituent of limestone. H2CO3, or carbonic acid is what you get when you dissolve CO2 in water by the following formula:

CO2 + H2O <--> H2CO3 limestone is soluble in carbonic acid forming Ca(HCO3)2.

Calcium bicarbonate(aq) - Ca(HCO3)2, but actually as Ca++ and HCO3- ions, is soluble (in fact it doesn't have a solid state at all) and is what you measure as the carbonate hardness (kH) of your aquarium water. When you add the Ca++ and HCO3- ions you get:

Ca(HCO3)2 <--> CaCO3 + H2CO3

Both of these reactions are at equilibrium and reversible. If you add components to one side of the reaction, you drive it in the other direction.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

If the plant thrives there will not be any measurable nitrate or extremely low levels, the plants uptake of other nutrients like heavy metals is just plausible and nothing I was thinking on at that time.

My primary reason for having plants would be their ability to take up nitrogen, preferentially for most plants as ammonia, but they take up metal ions as well. In fact there has been quite a lot of scientific work using floating macrophytes to clean up metal contaminated wastes, often using "aquarium" plants like Pistia stratiotes (Nile Lettuce), Eichornia spp. (Water Hyacinth) or Lemna spp. (Duckweeds).

This is a Pistia paper and abstract:
Accumulation of Trace Elements by Pistia stratiotes: Implications for phytoremediation
V. J. Odjegba and I. O. Fasidi
World Journal of Microbiology and Biotechnology, 2008, Volume 24, Number 12, Pages 3063-3070.
Abstract
"The toxicity of eight potentially toxic trace elements (Ag, Cd, Cr, Cu, Hg, Ni, Pb and Zn) to Pistia stratiotes was examined to determine if this plant showed sufficient tolerance and metal accumulation to be used to phytoremediate waste water and/or natural water bodies polluted with these heavy metals.......All trace elements accumulated to higher concentrations in root tissue rather than in shoot. Trace element accumulation in tissues and the bioconcentration factors were proportional to the initial concentration of individual metals in the growth medium and the duration of exposure. In terms of trace element removal, P. stratiotes presented differential accumulation and tolerance levels for different metals at similar treatment conditions."

cheers Darrel

[Janne]

Plant nutrition, plants is good either they are higher plants or true water plants as long they thrive and grow.

Janne

[Bwhiskered]

I am not sure what damages pectoral fins. It is probably bacteria. I do know that I had several L-66 fry in a spawning that had damaged or clubed pectoral fins. I hated to throw them out so I gambled on an idea. The fry were only 2" long so I took a pair of finger nail clippers and cut off the damaged fins and put them in a planted tank. They disapeared in the plants and driftwood and I forgot about them for 6 weeks. Then one day as I moved a piece of wood that was in the way of catching some tetras I saw one move so I caught it. The fins had grown back perfectly. I caught the others as well and they had all grown back perfect. I'd say try corrective surgery as you have nothing to lose.

[Janne]

The fry were only 2" long so I took a pair of finger nail clippers and cut off the damaged fins and put them in a planted tank. They disapeared in the plants and driftwood and I forgot about them for 6 weeks. Then one day as I moved a piece of wood that was in the way of catching some tetras I saw one move so I caught it. The fins had grown back perfectly.

Sounds possible, did you left a small piece of the pectoral fin or did you cut of the whole pectoral fin?

Janne

[GoldWing]

just euthanised the lot a few days a go.
there wil be others

[Bwhiskered]

I only clipped the fin below the damaged part. Sorry to hear you have destroyed the lot. PH and hardness I do not feel is the problem. Mine are always raised in tap water which is 7.6 ph and 160 TDS. This was the first time I had any with the bad fins. It was no doubt bacteria.

[Janne]

I only clipped the fin below the damaged part.

Ok, it's good to verify how much you cut so not everyone start to cut of the whole fins to close to the body, I don't think these would grow out again if doing this wrong.

It was no doubt bacteria.

I think bacteria can be one of several reasons, everything that negatively affect the oxygen uptake and the transport of oxygen in the blood circulation and disturb the cell growth can cause this problem with deformities... fry in the early stage should be much more sensitive then older youngsters.

Janne