Hope all is well with you all and your fin-loves. Things have gone so much slower than I'd hoped. But I've good news, I've begun to seed the 55G this evening! I'm So happy about this, it meaning it won't be long before I can transfer them.
GF
I think...
I took water parameters today and still nothing. Does this mean I haven't put enough in it? What I did was fill the tank a few days ago and had gotten one filter up and going strong and steady. I finally got the other one pieced together... and it's working great. I used Stress Coat to condition the water a couple days ago and yesterday added a couple seedy things.
I used one of the bio-bags I had in the refigrigerator. I placed it under the fat sponge in the single welled filter. I then made a cocktail of (2 pints) tank (10G) water and squeezed the sponge in it a few good times. Then I poured that in. That's it. I was afraid to make any mistakes. Have I?
Today I pulled the bags of gravel out of the fridge and plan to sort out the carbon then add of it to the tank. Andywoolloo suggested I put the old gravel in silk/nylon stockings and I assume hang them from the edge? Or should I just put it all in because its all well seeded and I don't have another gravel (or sand) for it yet? I think lt's full seed. I had removed it from the 10G because I couldn't get the carbon out of it, there's just so much of it. Plus it made cleaning the tank easier since I'm having to do it at least twice a day.
That's where we are at the moment. I'm worried I'll fail this step. I've read so many articles and posts of people losing their fish with a tank change or new tank due to the cycle's harshness (NH3/No2) when out of balance, when getting started. I don't want to put them through that even though they Might survive it. But o way...
Lastly, I'd like to ask if you could please tell me what my next step should be? I have the above – I also have another bio bag that's really good and yucky on hold in the coldbox... and of course what's inside the 10G and the 10G filter.
I'm not sure exactly what you are doing (or trying to do), and what measurements you expect to so. I'm presuming you are talking of the cycling (maturing of the biological filter) of the tank.
The "cycle" process starts with ammonia - in a natural setting, this comes from the fish ("fish pee", as a result of the breakdown of proteins). It is then converted to nitrite and eventually nitrate by the beneficial bacteria in the filter media. If there is no supply of ammonia (e.g. fish pee, from a bottle or from other organisms breaking down protein - e.g. rotting fish-food or plant matter decomposing), then there will be no nitrite or nitrate produced. So, if you are measuring ammonia, nitrite and nitrate in the new tank, I'd expect none of them to change from their original values, unless you are adding/have added something that produces ammonia.
As to your existing filter and moving that to the new tank, I think that would work just fine. It's coping (sort of) right now. Concentration of ammonia and nitrite will be about 5 times lower in the new tank thanks to more water to dilute the fish pee, so that in itself helps. By having the old filter and the new filter working in parallel, you will be seeding the new filter with spores from the bacteria in the older filter, which also helps.
As long as the overall water chemistry is similar, and your new tank is up to temperature, not leaking or falling down, you should be able to move the fish into the new tank, using the existing filter.
I had suggested to you a bit ago that you use play sand from a home improvement store. It just needs to be rinsed until the water runs clear.. do buckets at a time. Even with water in your 55 you can add it to the bottom using a cup or large spoon or ladle. It will settle pretty quickly. I suggest this mostly because you had said you thought about adding a group of cories at some point and they need a smooth substrate for their dainty mouths. I have both sand and regular small aquarium gravel in my 55.. I plant in the gravel which is around the perimeter and then have sand in the center, since plants seem to do a bit better in the gravel for me. The sand gets too compact for the roots to be efficient.
As far as the catappa leaves, I researched these quite a bit at one point and the one thing I learned is that you must only use the leaves that have dropped off. There is someone on Aquabid who sells them and I have taken some information from her listing and reprinted it here for your understanding on how they work, and what works best. She writes:
"Ketapang or Sea Almond or Indian Almond or Terminalia catappa leaves are known to most, if not all Asian breeders of blackwater tropical fishes, to be one of the best water conditioners to promote healing and breeding. They are known to have antibacteria and antifungal properties. Bettas are known to be induced to spawn by just putting a few of the leaves into their tank. Fish suffering finrot or injuries (such as spawning injuries) will definitely benefit from having the leaves in their quarantine tub. But they can be used for the usual aquariums too.
When soaked in water these leaves will leach a strong brown dye that is full of organic acids like humic acids and tannic acids. These may be useful for inhibiting many types of bacteria as well as to detoxify harmful heavy metals found in the aquarium. But that is not all!
Referring to leaves from the Terminalia catappa tree, Dr Robert J. Goldstein (not the podiatrist- wannabe terrorist of Florida; but the aquarist and environmental consultant of North Carolina who wrote numerous book on fish-keepings), writes in his 2002 paper entitled 'Water Conditioners and Additives':
The large, leathery leaves are used in folk medicine to treat infections, indigestion, and other medical conditions. The water extract makes a pharmacologically powerful tea¦ In southeast Asia, betta breeders add a dried leaf to provide a surface for the bubblenest and to leach substances that protect the fry from diseases. As the leaves decay, they also provide detritus to grow extract-resistant infusoria for the babies. Of 35 aromatic (ring
structure) substances identified from these leaves, noteworthy were benzene-acetaldehyde, acetones, and sabinen-hydrate. The first is strongly antimicrobial, and several of the 35 others destroy microbial cell membranes.
And he adds:
"So these leaves are not simply sources of stains and tannins and other acids as we would get from oak or hickory, but rich in many other kinds of complex and highly effective chemicals with a wide range of physiological and antimicrobial effects."
Most of your leaves will be between 7-10" (and sometimes reaching up to 12"). They are selectively collected from leaves that have naturally fallen and of good quality. For indication of quality (colour hue may vary from batch to batch, but all leaves that are greenish or smell green are rejected). And yes, in case you are wondering, the leaves in the photo are crispy dry.
You may wish to note that our leaves are select I've picked from those that have naturally fallen from the trees after turning red in a natural chemical/biological process. These are the leaves that tan the blackwater streams in the forest where bettas and arowanas are found. We do not harvest fresh leaves from the trees and dry them. If we do that, the leaves will look very nice and indeed easier to obtain; but we doubt their efficacy for aquatic use. My husband will never use such leaves; and we do not know of any tropical fish breeder who will. All the breeders we know who use Ketapang Leaves will only use naturally fallen and dried ones. Indeed, if you try these naturally fallen leaves once, you will probably never go back to freshly harvested leaves! They have an aromatic smell that freshly harvested leaves do not have (it was this sweet smell that first led breeders and herbalists to suspect that they have beneficial properties), and they have a reddish tinge absent from freshly harvested leaves.
Dosage
For bettas, put a 1-2 sq inch piece (or a quarter of a leaf) into each 1 gallons (4 litre) jar. For usual aquarium (with tetras, gouramis, arrowanas, apistos etc), put 2-3 leaves per 25 gallons (100 litres) of water for 14-21 days. Simply put the leaves into the aquarium. After 1-2 days the leaves will be water-logged and sink. Apart from their beneficial effects on the water, they will tan the water slightly (to a clear amber) and provide a very natural stream-bottom look to your aquarium. Alternatively, you can boil the leaves to make blackwater extract and dose when you need. Soaking the leaves in a bucket for a week will produce a similar result.
Quality Assurance (Gina here- I edit this part so you know how to judge the leaves for your own harvesting method)
Quality control:
* Our first level quality occurs at picking. We pick the leaves from 6 or 7 different locations in Singapore where in total there are more than a hundred catappa trees which bear good quality leaves (not every catappa tree bear such leaf. Some bear only yellow or thin leaves). We only pick leaves that are are freshly fallen from the tree and are dark red or brown (not green) and not bleached (or weather-beaten), whole, and not torn or have large holes (Indian Almond is one of the most delicious trees, so they very likely to get infested by caterpillars — which in itself is a good indication that the tree is not covered with toxic substances).
* Our second level occurs at the washing and drying process. Leaves that are still fresh are shade-dried after washing. Some leaves are thrown away at these stage (e.g. leaves that are too dirty, green, or look/smell bad)."
The point here is that you must use the leaves that have fallen from the tree. Use leaves that are thick. Rinse them well, and then dry them out in the shade until they are totally dry and then keep them in plastic bags. If you get leaves that are still green they will pollute the water and not do what you need them to do. As that write up says, that lady is from Singapore, and I know they have a humid climate.
I am confused, it reads like you set up the 55 and have it running and are checking the parameters, have added the filters but not the fish?
Is everything in there? And I am confused about the fridge? what did you put in the fridge?
To jump cycle the new tank, you set it up,(substrate , decorations, plants, filter, heater etc. run that for a day or several hours to make sure the filter and ehater work properly, then when it's the correct temp add the fish and at that time add their filter media from the ten gal filter to the new filter, I am assuming it will fit as a ten gal filter is small.
then you add the fish. your existing fish.
the refrigerator I am confused about, the substrate in a pantyhose toe tied off needs to go directly from the existing ten gal into the 55 gal, with fish. the good bacteria from the substrate and the filter media from the ten into the 55 needs the fish and their food and waste to live.
And the fridge thing I am sorry if i confused you but it would probably die in the fridge cause it's too cold in there , i would imagine.
so you set up the new tank, move the fish moev their existing deco that has good bacteria on it move some of the substrate, straight in or in pantyhose toes tied off and set on the bottom.
then you must check the water every day and do partial water changes accordingly to keep the Ammonia and NItrite at or below 0.25 ppm. I use a liquid drop test kit, API Freshwater Master.
Nui will scrape algea also, just not as efficiently as Li'i. As you probably know by now, Nui is omnivorous, and will eat a wide range of foods from the plant and animal kingdoms. He will also dig into the new gravel/sand for stray morsels. Li'i is also an omnivore but wants a larger amount of vegetable compared to animal fair. Remember the skin scraping episode?
You can use driftwood and bogwood together or seperately. As mentioned above you cant lose with some tannic acid in your freshwater tanks.
On the terra cotta pots: take the square edge of a metal tool and at a right angle drag it across the sharp edge. That will get rid of the sharp edge inside and out.
I agree with all said above. Get the fish in the new tank and then you will start seeing new water measurements. In this case you just want to get Nui in a container and add small doses of water from the new tank over a period of 10-15minutes. Make sure your temperature is roughly equal. Then gently, let Nui swim into his new home. If he is breathing hard it could partly due to anxiety, but if it continues add a strong airstone and/or maybe some dechlorinator/conditioner. It should go well.
Thanks for the cudos, I try to help when I can. Others have helped me, so its only common sense to pay it forward. When you become a proficient aquarist, hope you will help someone also.
Nui will scrape algea also, just not as efficiently as Li'i. As you probably know by now Nui is an omnivore and will eat foods from a wide range of plant and animal kingdom. He will also dig in the gravel/sand for stray morsels. Li'i is also omnivorous, only she likes more plant matter than animal matter in her diet. Remember the skin scrapping incidents?
You can use bogwood and driftwood together or separately. As mentioned above you can't go wrong with some tannic acids in you freshwater tanks.
On the terra cotta: take the square edge of a handtool and drag it at a right angle across the sharp edge of your pot and that will get rid of the sharpness. Remember inside and out.
Also as mentioned above: Get the fish in the new tank and then you will start to get water measurments. In this case just get the fish into a container and add small doses of new water over a period of 10-15 minutes. roughly equalize the temperature. Then gently, let them swim into their new environment. If they are breathing hard it could be partly due to anxiety. If it continues, put in a strong airstone and/or add some dechlorinator/conditioner.
thanks for the cudos. I like to help when I can. Other have helped me so it only makes sense to pay it forward. Hopefully, when you become a proficient aquarist, you can help someone the same way.
Hi, I have been following along on this thread for a while! I'm not sure if you have decided on substrate, but just wanted to comment on the play sand - I know a lot of people use it sucessfully, but I believe I read somewhere a few pages back that you have an aquaclear filter? If thats the case, I would strongly recommend against play sand. If your fish dig at all, play sand is death to an aquaclear. I had to replace all my aquaclear impellers, and a couple of motors after switching over to play sand. Even with a prefilter, somehow it got in! I switched to pool filter sand which is a touch heavier and works just fine, in my experience. Just wanted to offer my two cents, for what its worth, and perhaps save you some frustration if you are still deciding which substrate to use!
~karen
I just lost the message I had spent over an hour trying to compose in response to all these responses. It looks like I've frustrated everyone. I"m sorry... I'm frustrated as well, more than this I'm confused. But worst of all, I'm terrified of taking that step of transferring Nui and Li'i to the new tank. plus...
Scott helped me yesterday putting the stone substrate that came with the 55G back into it after a good boiling and rinse. However when he poured out the bag, (we used a clean ziplock lowering into the tank so as not to do any damage) it was clear we hadn't gotten all of the frosty flakes out of the lot. Too, at the end of the last two pours came a bit of a cloud. I have no idea what it was??? He had rinsed the stuff really well he said so perhaps it was oxygen? But it has me worried. I've made so many mistakes, I don't want to make this one of them.
I've also read many posts about people losing their fish at the stage. As Mats sort of said, I don't have a healthy bio-cycle going in the 10G. And I've only begun to understand what this means. From other stories I've read, the fish have to suffer much toxicity in order for the cycle to get established if they're a part of it. Opposed to doing it without them. There are several others who recommend to people to get fish called Danios to get the cycle started. An atrocity in my heart's thought as these people are basically sacrificing some to save the others. I don't understand it. And if its that bad... is this what Nui and Li'i are going to go through? Is there a way for me to minimize it?
I didn't mean to confuse everyone with my brief description of "seeding". I had seen a good video on setting up a new tank. That guy using a disposable cup with tank water, squeezed a sponge well into it and poured the mixture which I called a "cocktail" into the new tank. I did this, I couldn't see the harm... but maybe there was. I also recalled that either Naturalart or Jools had said I would want to transfer over some of the old tank water which I did as well. And I put a bio-fiber bag, that had come from the Whisper, which I'd stored in the fridge (which will not kill bacteria btw) in one of the filters. That was now three days ago. I think. And that's it. Along with what substrate we've got in it now. Scott also found a good source for the catappa leaves which we won't be able to gather until Friday.
So we will get some catappa but it won't be ready for the tank at least until Sunday, if I follow the instructions found in the great research Ginagv did. And with Naturalart's help I can get the terra cotta pots ready in about that time as well. But that's all I have for the tank. Along with the stuff that's in the 10G. I also have that pipe I mentioned earlier but no one must have recognized the type I'd described. I'll get a photo maybe. And i don't want to transfer them unless I'm going to be present for a good few days for them in case anything happens.
So that's where I am. Regarding sand as substrate, it got shot in the foot today right? I can understand this, both the Aquaclear and the Aqua-Tech have free floating impellers – their intake tubes don't come down on them, but sit about 1/16"+ above them vs the Whisper which is a much tighter fit. At least the one I have. Or perhaps all these types of filters can experience the same problem with sand. But it was good to find out as I would have bought some tomorrow.
I so apologize for the lack of clarity. I don't like making excuses but I've got a couple issues going on. Besides having some physical challenges due to the fall, I'm also experiencing what they call "post concussive syndrome" which is evidently temporary. I'm forgetting things. Some very important things. Thank goodness I haven't done any harm via it thus far... I just need to go slow and find clarity before stepping off.
So, given this information, perhaps I've clarified some of the mistakes I've made. In all honesty tho' I'm very frightened of losing them. I'm so worried about the new tank water... have I ruined it with what I did. I know Andy said to "...just do this!" And I certainly appreciate where he's coming from with it but is it really that simple? Given what I've shared about our circumstance, the steps I've taken, can I move forward with it? Or should I empty this tank and start over. I don't care if I have to, if it will be best for Nui and Li'i. I'd really appreciate being told what to do here... I really don't know what to do and am so worried.
GF, I'm not sure what kind of substrate you put in the new tank, but if your husband cleaned and boiled it, it's probably safe. If its coral sand/gravel I would remove it eventually.
But I feel like you're overthinking this. New beginnings can be painful, but usually not terminal. I just finished moving 5 syno's to a new tank today; no problems. Don't scare yourself about something that hasn't happened. Maybe just think about it this way: you kinda introduce your fish to a new tank everytime you change water. Get the idea? And actually you are doing yourself and the fish a disservice by letting them continue to live in that undersized tank. Its creating more work for you and they don't like it either.
Its important that you move forward with the project, and this is important, with a positive attitude! Expect good things will happen. And if by a remote chance things go wrong, you can always just return the fish to the old tank. Paralysis means your doing nothing. You haven't planned and work hard up to this point just to stop and do nothing. I say follow through and finish what you started. We and the fish will applaud you.
I agree with Naturalart. The fish will be better off in a bigger tank, no matter what the state of filtration, etc. Move the existing filter, as it is at least SOMEWHAT towards a cycle. The big benefit with a bigger tank is that the waste product is more diluted, which in itself will be beneficial.
Just make sure you also move the filter with the fish!
OK, so as to Danios or other hardy fish being "lost leaders". This is totally not the case. Anytime you ste-up a tank there is always a first fish. The point about Danios (I have two goldfish, Bill and Ted, who apart from being the only fish I have names for (oh, and Neil the Eel), is that they are hardy enough to take a new tank). If they die in the process, then it's not been done right. Bill and Ted have cycled well over 50 tanks and they're just fine.
Also, I don't do anything more than a cursory wash when adding gravel and I don't wash sand. It means the tank is cloudy for a few days, but perhaps due to my lifestyle, a few days waiting for a tank to clear without my input is better than a "lost" hour washing gravel. I say that maybe because in my 39 years to date, I've probably spend a few days of time just washing gravel. The dust and dirt naturally bonds over time and in a matter of weeks is just part of the scenery. But, if you have one or two tanks, it's good to clean it as much as possible. The point is that you're cleaning it for your benefit, not really the fishes.
If it were me (and it was a less hardy fish - but let's do this Belt&Braces) I'd do the following:
1) Ensure the temperature is within 1 degree F of being the same in both tanks.
2) Get a large bucket or basin. Siphon out half of the old tank water into bucket.
3) Catch the Syno and place in bucket (be prepared that he will get caught in the net, if so just put net and fish in bucket, arrange the net to avoid futher tangling).
4) VERY slowly (I use airline tubing) siphon new tank water into the basin or bucket to double the water in there (e.g. 50% old tank water, 50% new). If you do this right it will take about 30-60 mins.
5) Depending on room temp, wait an hour or three. The point being don't let the water temp drop much. During this time I refill the old tank.
6) Catch the fish and put in new tank. Discard all water in the bucket.
7) Don't feed new tank for 24 - 48 hours.
GoldenFeather wrote:I just lost the message I had spent over an hour trying to compose in response to all these responses.
The forum is just not designed to cope with such periods of (from it's point of view) inactivity. It doesn't know you're typing furiously or have gone off to the shops. It will drop your session eventually. If you want to avoid this very frustrating situation again, type up long replies in Microsoft word or similar and cut and paste them. Also, if you do press submit and your post is not displayed, you can press the back button, cut your text, login in to the forum, initiate another reply and paste the text in.
I'm running right now, be assured I've read and taken straight to heart all the good put forth and the excellent step by step instruction. Regarding the instruction. Do I repeat this same process with Li'i and when?
Naturalart's right I've totally over thunk this and just stopped/froze. Last night I did some research and found a conversation that helped as well. Another dim virgin in a similar situation. Funny/stupid thing is it was exactly what Andy was telling me but worded a little differently. Thanks Andy.
I'll be googolplexing y'all all day with a lighter heart. Nui and Li'i are sure in for a treat very soon. I've been sad watching them and spend most of my time not doing anything doing that. Nui's actually been watching the new tank. I have a wood airstone at the glass on his end and he does like bubbles. Probably because his water isn't right.
Okay, I'm spending the day running and doctors and gotta jet if I'm going to change their water before I go. It isn't at all bad, just a very light touch of nitrites but I'll do a bit just to ensure the day is good. And I don't feed when I leave for the day. I'll also be preparing to take this step tomorrow throughout the day as there won't be time tonight I don't think. Gina advised I do this in the dark... help make them feel more secure and safe as they venture in their new waters.
dear, you are not frustrating me in the least. I love how much you care for the fish. I just wanted to make sure you weren't misunderstanding something i'd said, which can happen cause I need to type clearer sometimes.
andywoolloo wrote:dear, you are not frustrating me in the least. I love how much you care for the fish. I just wanted to make sure you weren't misunderstanding something i'd said, which can happen cause I need to type clearer sometimes.
And Jools said it all in his post.
Cheers to you and your fish! Well done!
That's good to hear, thanks for letting me know. I thought you were scolding me... and just figured. I'm frustrating myself so kinda expect I'd be frustrating all of you who I imagine (just my weird imagination – believe me) wanting to shake me! Wish I could make smiley faces that would be a cute one.
Jools outline is excellent, Exactly what I need...
Hi There... again a late response. I wrote this yesterday, got taken away with work. Then went to send it of last night and felll asleep... oops
Jools wrote:Yes, lights off also a good idea (I avoided adding dim virgin to that sentence, but it was mighty tempting). Give it a week and move your CAE.
Good luck!
Jools
PS We want pics of the new home!
Jools, Gooooogoools!
Dim virgin... hahaha, just describes one such as I well I think, + I like it better than "newbie" – too cute for me.
Move Li'i in a week? I can imagine many scenarios transferring them together. One thing that comes to mind though is that the 10G cycle is seriously lacking due to all the water changes and the fact that I had added the zeolite until this past week. This happened after I read a thread about the cycle speaking to the differences in the effects of Ammonia below and above pH 7.0. That above 7.0 it becomes far more toxic even deadly. This freaked me due to the fact that the storms shifted my pH up to almost 8.0. Evidently our pH fluxuates regularly living on a well. I hadn't been aware of this – of course I haven't. It is impossibly to control Nui's (& Li'i's) Ammonia in the 10G. So with the heightened pH they were getting hit multiple times a day. The Zeolite put an end to this... however, I think it likely to have broken the cycle in half. It is working though, I mean I have parameters so somethings happening.
When I move Nui I was intending to move everything from the 10G with him hoping to give what support we can to get it off the ground. The filter media with the filter too, sharing out a small bit of it to the other two filters; Li'i's cave tree and Nui's hiding rock; and, the gravel. I guess I could keep a clipping of the media back and move one of the 55G filtedrs to the 10G perhaps? Use catappa leaves in the 10G and substrate from the refrigerator? Given what I have been able to learn, this could work for Li'i and her smaller size? Tho' she's a little chubber these days – really she's swimming with a waddle she's gotten so fat.
Before closing I was wondering if, when you had a moment, share with me the reason(s) for such a delay between these two transfers?
Remember I mentioned the wood airstone? It's of "Marin" wood. Yesterday, when I checked it it had some white filmy stuff floating off of it – connected still at one end to the airstone. Has anyone had this happen? Is this common with them? When I checked the tank yesterday I see that it is on the glass as well. A white filmy stuff, I guess meaning that it transparent but opaque.
Thank you very much for your valuable time and considerations here...
GF
I personally don't think you should add catappa leaves or anything else to adjust the pH. Your fish is fine in the water you have in the tap, I'm absolutely sure.
Splittint the filter media sounds like a good plan.
I'm not sure what you want to delay?
And I have no idea what the white goo is. I'm pretty certain, however, that it isn't harmful to the fish.
MatsP wrote:I personally don't think you should add catappa leaves or anything else to adjust the pH. Your fish is fine in the water you have in the tap, I'm absolutely sure.
Splittint the filter media sounds like a good plan.
I'm not sure what you want to delay?
And I have no idea what the white goo is. I'm pretty certain, however, that it isn't harmful to the fish.
--
Mats
Mats, What does "splintint" mean?
In regards delay... if you're asking why I'm delaying, I just need to feel sure about everything that gives me pause. Unfortunately that's been quite a list not being able to interpret much of anything taking place or evolving. And very fortunately I believe we're very near its end.
If you're asking in regards the delay I ask about in the previous post. I'd just like to understand the reasoning behind delaying Li'i's move.
Leaves seem such a natural part of their original environment, I would think it would be a good thing. Not just to adjust the pH. Still in regards at is the difference between catappa leaf or bogwood?
Your confidence in my tap water is assuring. Thank you. Still, if anyone wants to help me understand why my 7.8+ pH isn't a concern with .25-.50 ammonia levels I've been dealing with isn't a concern, I'd really appreciate it. I change the water when I find it is going up even if it's only showing a shade or two above the base yellow.
I'm glad you don't think this white algae like stuff is harmful – If no body else responds to it I'll have to assume they agree with you. That the white film coming out of the wooden airstone is harmless.
MatsP wrote:I personally don't think you should add catappa leaves or anything else to adjust the pH. Your fish is fine in the water you have in the tap, I'm absolutely sure.
--
Mats
Hi Mats... I just recalled and thought I'd share that Naturalart had recommended the catappa leaves as a solution to my not being able to get a suitable substrate vs addressing pH levels.
But you make me wonder about problems with using things like catappa leaves, bogwood etc. When it comes to using things to adjust water conditions, it seems better to use natural elements vs chemicals that so very many people seem to use. I don't like it in my personal life and if needed prefer the natural for my animals/fish too.
"splitting" is what I meant to write. Sorry about that.
So, I'm clearly confused about why you want Catappa leaves. However, if they work as advertised in some places, they will lower the pH (and have all manner of other benefits - it all sounds a bit too good to be true). This needs to be monitored, so that the pH doesn't go too low.
I have soft water and huge pieces of wood in my tanks, and the pH is stable, so I don't think moderate amounts will cause any real problem there. I know people say that wood lowers the pH, but I think that only applies when the pH is unstable already due to low KH values. If your water is relatively hard, then it shouldn't be a problem. Again, check the pH - but don't fret too much about trying to hit some magical "right value" - for nearly all fish, it isn't important what the actual value of the pH is.
MatsP wrote:"splitting" is what I meant to write. Sorry about that.
So, I'm clearly confused about why you want Catappa leaves. However, if they work as advertised in some places, they will lower the pH (and have all manner of other benefits - it all sounds a bit too good to be true). This needs to be monitored, so that the pH doesn't go too low.
I have soft water and huge pieces of wood in my tanks, and the pH is stable, so I don't think moderate amounts will cause any real problem there. I know people say that wood lowers the pH, but I think that only applies when the pH is unstable already due to low KH values. If your water is relatively hard, then it shouldn't be a problem. Again, check the pH - but don't fret too much about trying to hit some magical "right value" - for nearly all fish, it isn't important what the actual value of the pH is.
--
Mats
Okay... Thanks Mats, makes great sense which is what I need – something I sorely lack when stressed...
I'll watch it. I was also concerned with the number of leaves to use... Gina posted some excerpts from a good article on it that gave a good bit on appropriate dosage. I will continue testing like a mad scientist until things are stable for both of them.
I also don't have a clue what the white goo is.. I suppose there is a "white algae" but I dont know. I've never run into it personally.
I just advocated moving Nui first and then Li'i so they would have each other for comfort in the new environment. They have been through alot and been together all this time and seem to have an atypical species relationship. But if someone else has a more scientific reason then that's fine. As usual, I come from a more emotional point of view.
From my point of view, the only things you really need to watch for is the nitrites, nitrates, and ammonia. Ideally you want ammonia at 0, Nitrites at 0, and Nitrates at less than 20ppm. They should be totally used to the pH of your water by now and to fiddle with the pH at this point would be useless. So test the 55 gallon water and the 10 gallon water and try to get them as close as possible.. Do the bucket acclimation when you move from the 10 to the 55 as Jools specified.. that will slowly take care of any differences.. and watch your water temperature.. Also, remember what I warned you about with teh API Master Test kit.. shake the nitrate reagent bottle #2 for 2 minutes before you put the drops in, not the 30 seconds like it says..
Take a deep breath.. there's light at the end of their tunnel..
MatsP wrote:"splitting" is what I meant to write. Sorry about that.
So, I'm clearly confused about why you want Catappa leaves. However, if they work as advertised in some places, they will lower the pH (and have all manner of other benefits - it all sounds a bit too good to be true). This needs to be monitored, so that the pH doesn't go too low.
I have soft water and huge pieces of wood in my tanks, and the pH is stable, so I don't think moderate amounts will cause any real problem there. I know people say that wood lowers the pH, but I think that only applies when the pH is unstable already due to low KH values. If your water is relatively hard, then it shouldn't be a problem. Again, check the pH - but don't fret too much about trying to hit some magical "right value" - for nearly all fish, it isn't important what the actual value of the pH is.
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Mats
Thanks Mats...
Yeah they seem pretty beneficial little wonders of nature. I'll watch the amount I put in the tank, Gina posted some excerpts from a great article on the leaves, selecting the important points to share. Dosage was one of them giving a formula to use.
Got it on the "right value" of pH. Nui and Li'i are likely able to survive a day in a rain puddle but if I can avoid subjecting them to even the slightest discomfort, I'd like to. With help like your's and others' here I'm better able to do that.
I also don't have a clue what the white goo is.. I suppose there is a "white algae" but I dont know. I've never run into it personally.
<snip>
Take a deep breath.. there's light at the end of their tunnel..
Gina
Hi Gina...
This white stuff has been driving me nuts level crazy here. I've been searching all over the place trying to find a like situation. Found many. Most all of them guessing algae, parasites, hydra.. many warning parasites, gill rote etc. Many say harmless like Mats. But finally found one that seemed relative, reasonable and informative. If anyone's interested it's at::
The microscopic image there is great. All I can see with the naked eye is a tiny tulip like shape connected to a thread that is connected to the glass. It floats with the current. It's scary looking thinking it some parasite, hydra or something that's going to cause gill rot or parasites. So yikes.
Something I didn't find was anything related to the airstone. The problem I have with this is that there was a white opaque stuff all over it but different too. The white stuff on the airstone was in flimy strips that looked like phlegm sort of. But when I touched it it wasn't slippery, when I pressed and rolled it between thumb and index it was hard and didn't flake or crumble. The little growths on the glass are the same color and opacity so I figure they're likely same thing. I don't know though. Something that may be of significance, is that the stuff on the airstone was only on the sides where the bubbles exit. Not the flat inactive surface which made me think it was possibly coming from something organic within the wood??? It just seemed to make some sense.
Anyway, I've found this page has an image that looks like what I'm seeing. He found says is:
"I believe these are the protozoan called vorticella.."
One girl responded telling him to up the temp to 86°ƒ for 7 -10 days. Then he says:
"I was able to talk to some of the folks in the USDA research facility here and they supplied me with a chemical called "Formalite II" by aquatronics which they said should do the trick. For anybody else interested, they also told me that these were harmless to my fish, and if I was gonna breed my angelfish I could leave them in there and the fry would eat them as a source of food!!!"
Below is an image of what I can see here from the side looking down the glass from one end to the other. Maybe someone will recognize it from your own experience. I imagine there isn't much at all that hasn't been seen by one or all of you.
I just advocated moving Nui first and then Li'i so they would have each other for comfort in the new environment. They have been through alot and been together all this time and seem to have an atypical species relationship. But if someone else has a more scientific reason then that's fine. As usual, I come from a more emotional point of view.
<snip>
Take a deep breath.. there's light at the end of their tunnel..
Gina
Gina...
I feel the same, it goes against my nature and heart to separate them. That's why I wanted to learn from Jools or someone else that understands his reasoning for waiting a week between their moves to the 55G. I'm imagining all sorts of reasons he could have. Scientific reasons...? I'm waiting to hear...
Thanks Gina...
Here's a picture for you of Nui and Li'i last evening after their water change.
I'm glad, me too. I've been taking photos all along and have a file of special ones I've wanted to share but other things have taken precedence. I call the one below their "Portrait". I think they look so precious here, I haven't been able to get a better one since. The pose I mean, tho' the photography could use improvement too. They just happened to stop and look at me from behind the "Li'i's cave tree" – each their own peep hole. Li'i has a total peek-a-boo look on her face here.
Here they are...
Nui & Li'i "Forever Friends"...
Aren't they the cutest?
BTW – when I transfer Nui and should Li'i remain in the 10G for a bit after, I'd definitely need to leave this tree for her to sleep and hide in. This gives me a small bit of concern, not so much for the beneficial bacteria on it, more because Nui loves to use it as well. He props himself in all sorts of various positions all over the thing. From sucking at the leaves or a couple wood tips he enjoys. To laying upside down up on top of the leaves like a swinging hammock sort of. To hanging himself perpendicular by his whiskers from the branches. To hiding behind it. I've never seen an object so used by someone - pet or person. I would regret not letting him take it to the 55G but couldn't let Li'i lose her security-space. And she too sucks all over it but doesn't spend near the amount of time on and with it that Nui does. Gadz, I just need to get the 55G set up well/right/wonderful for them both and each.
I think...
and just figured. I'm frustrating myself so kinda expect I'd be frustrating all of you who I imagine (just my weird imagination – believe me) wanting to shake me! Wish I could make smiley faces that would be a cute one.
nuts level crazy here. I've been searching all over the place trying to find a like situation. Found many. Most all of them guessing algae, parasites, hydra.. many warning parasites, gill rote etc. Many say harmless like Mats. But finally found one that seemed relative, reasonable and informative. If anyone's interested it's at::
To hiding behind it. I've never seen an object so used by someone - pet or person. I would regret not letting him take it to the 55G but couldn't let Li'i lose her security-space. And she too sucks all over it but doesn't spend near the amount of time on and with it that Nui does. Gadz, I just need to get the 55G set up well/right/wonderful for them both and each.