L134 eggs won't hatch?

[Lihn]

Hi PlanetCatfish

I had been so lucky that both of my two groups of WC L134 had shown me that they can spawn.
I have 24 fishes at all.

They have spawned 4 times at all (One of the groups 3 times and the other one just 1 time). But none of the spawns had given me fry. After 2-3 days the male had either kicked the eggs out or eaten all the eggs.

Is it because the eggs are not fertilized, or could it be my water parametres that make the eggs will not hatch? The pH is around 7,5-8 and the hardness is around 15 - here in the winter period I only use tap water, but in the summer I uses collected rainwater.

Does any of you have tried anything like that with L134, or is it just me?
- can I do anything? (maybe try to make a lower pH?)

[kouen]

Hello!
I may give you good contact in CPH. His name is Paw Anderson. You can talk directly, he is breeding many hipancistruses and 134 as well.

Sergey

[Lihn]

Hi Sergey

Thank you.
I know Paw, and for about 2 years ago I bought some fishes from him, ex. L260, which I am trying to breed now.

[kouen]

Good! I've got set of frog juveniles from him. In same time one pair of 134 in Moscow, male is under clutch, 3rd day left )) Will see how far they may move from first time. My water is ph7-7,5 kh4, gh 8-10.
As I know Paw spawning all his hipancistruses (66,260,46, etc) and 134 in same water. It is mostly common water with small amount of RO. Tanks are connected by cascade scheme.

Wish you the best results with frogs colony!

[Lihn]

Here is a brand new video from my L134 tanks. There is different lights over the tanks - therefore there is a bit change of colors in the fishes.



[Mod edit: fix youtube link --Mats]

[apistomaster]

I change my L134 breeders' water from tap to mostly RO using 50% RO water changes about 4 days apart until it becomes quite soft, approximately 40 ppm TDS and get good hatches.
But before I remove the accumulated fry I have to reverse this process until the fry are used to the tap water they will be raised in. Sometimes the L134 spawn at a point where the water is temporarily back up to tap water levels and hatch out without any problems. My tap water varies, depending on which of 6 wells the city happens to be using so it can run from as low as 240 ppm to 440 ppm. The pH of our tap water is 7.4 but it usually drops to around 6.4 when the TDS is kept close to 40 ppm. In degrees of hardness my KH is normally 6* and the sulfate hardness is about 7*. It is convenient for me to have the two being similar as the proportions of these dissolved minerals remain the same when heavily diluted with RO water even though in absolute terms the mineral content has been greatly reduced.

You may have fewer problems with ejected egg masses if you slightly elevate the opening to their caves. I am inclined to believe that when L134 want to breed that the water chemistry is not all that important but water quality is.

[Lihn]

I change my L134 breeders' water from tap to mostly RO using 50% RO water changes about 4 days apart until it becomes quite soft, approximately 40 ppm TDS and get good hatches.
But before I remove the accumulated fry I have to reverse this process until the fry are used to the tap water they will be raised in. Sometimes the L134 spawn at a point where the water is temporarily back up to tap water levels and hatch out without any problems. My tap water varies, depending on which of 6 wells the city happens to be using so it can run from as low as 240 ppm to 440 ppm. The pH of our tap water is 7.4 but it usually drops to around 6.4 when the TDS is kept close to 40 ppm. In degrees of hardness my KH is normally 6* and the sulfate hardness is about 7*. It is convenient for me to have the two being similar as the proportions of these dissolved minerals remain the same when heavily diluted with RO water even though in absolute terms the mineral content has been greatly reduced.

You may have fewer problems with ejected egg masses if you slightly elevate the opening to their caves. I am inclined to believe that when L134 want to breed that the water chemistry is not all that important but water quality is.

Hi Larry

Thank you for your reply. Exciting to hear about your water.
What do you mean with: "You may have fewer problems with ejected egg masses if you slightly elevate the opening to their caves." Should the fishes have bigger caves?

[Bas Pels]

Thank you for your reply. Exciting to hear about your water.
What do you mean with: "You may have fewer problems with ejected egg masses if you slightly elevate the opening to their caves." Should the fishes have bigger caves?

No, the idea is to prevent the eggs from rolling out of the cave. If you put the opening higher than the back, any egg starting to roll will rol to the safe - that is the back - end of the cave

To elvevate meant to put higher. Making something larger is to increase (the size)

[Lihn]

Thank you for your reply. Exciting to hear about your water.
What do you mean with: "You may have fewer problems with ejected egg masses if you slightly elevate the opening to their caves." Should the fishes have bigger caves?

No, the idea is to prevent the eggs from rolling out of the cave. If you put the opening higher than the back, any egg starting to roll will rol to the safe - that is the back - end of the cave

To elvevate meant to put higher. Making something larger is to increase (the size)

Thank you Bas Pels
Now I understand, hehe! It is obvious

[panaque]

My first spawn of this species was also ejected by the male and in that case I believe that it was due to another male trying to take over the cave. I have had two subsequent successful spawns from the other male in the same cave (after he had finally successfully evicted the original occupant). The latest spawn was again followed by heavy fighting but the male hung on to his cave and his eggs, which hatched a week ago, but his tail fin is in tatters.
Anyway, you say you have 24 fish in two groups which makes me wonder whether crowding and aggression could be the cause of your problems. Otherwise perhaps it is something to do with your water. My (tap)water is very soft but that doesn't mean that harder water wouldn't work just as well of course.
Hope that is of some help
Cheers
Frank

[Lihn]

Hi Frank

Interesting post. Actually, it could well be due to a fight between my two males. In connection with the last eggs, I noticed that another second males tried to get in contact with the male, who laid inside the cave. Either I should make the group smaller (I've sold two males who will be picked up next weekend), or I should try to remove the male with the eggs next time.

Many thanks for your post.

[apistomaster]

I think Jacob made a good point.
Fighting between males can end up causing eggs to be ejected. Sometimes they develop fine in a separate , small aquaria but sometimes the eggs get ejected because they are apparently infertile.
Sometimes the caves openings are low and eggs roll out. These things happen but I do think a colony of 5 to 7 is better than one of 10 or 15 because of the aggression. I use a couple males to 5 females since last year. Before it was 2 males and 4 females but I lost one large female and replaced her with 4 younger F1 females. I was not 100% that all 4 new specimens were females. The 2 year old, F1 females did spawn but their broods were about 10-14 fry instead of 25 to 35 fry.

[Lihn]

I think Jacob made a good point.
Fighting between males can end up causing eggs to be ejected. Sometimes they develop fine in a separate , small aquaria but sometimes the eggs get ejected because they are apparently infertile.
Sometimes the caves openings are low and eggs roll out. These things happen but I do think a colony of 5 to 7 is better than one of 10 or 15 because of the aggression. I use a couple males to 5 females since last year. Before it was 2 males and 4 females but I lost one large female and replaced her with 4 younger F1 females. I was not 100% that all 4 new specimens were females. The 2 year old, F1 females did spawn but their broods were about 10-14 fry instead of 25 to 35 fry.

Thanks a lot for good response.
I will change a bit in the groups to create two optimal groups. I have too many males, so maybe it was an idea to sell some of these.

My females are actually pretty big and the spawnings I've had have been at least 30 eggs. Now I just have to solve the code so I can get from the stage: "Egg" to "fry". It's probably a little trifle. ;)

[apistomaster]

Hi Jacob,
I think creating 2 breeding groups from the one large one is the best way to go.

To us breeders, extra males are of little value. The aggression between them plays a role in deciding which few dominant males will do most of the breeding. Perhaps if you can try 2 breeding groups with 2 dominant males each and provide them with 4 or 5 females, things may proceed smoother from here on. I have always had good success with using a US20 gal long tank for that size of breeding group. They are 12 X 12 X 30 inches; not an especially large tank but one which seems to be large enough for 2 trios. I only provide one breeding cave per male. I use pieces of Malaysian wood and the air lift and power head driven sponge filters and the females always hide under/behind the wood or under the base of the sponges. I also use one air stone. Between the air stone and airlift filters I think the dissolved O2 levels remain high. I use a MaxiJet power head to drive one of the sponge filters and that power head is rated for 600 lph/160 US gph. I use two Azoo, Pedestal type, Oxygen Plus Bio-filter model #6 because they happen to fit the included extension tube of this model of power head perfectly. Azoo claims the model #6 is suitable for tanks up to 110 gal but I do not believe them. I use the same combination in everyone of my tanks that run from the 20 gal long to a 40 gal breeder style tank and this system has worked well for me for 7 years. I only became very interested in breeding the smaller, pretty plecos 7 years ago.
Discus, Killiefish, small Anabantoids, SA Dwarf Cichlids and Characins were the fish I had mainly kept and bred before becoming so interested in breeding Catfish. I am always keeping some Discus to breed but the others come and go with my moods and interests of the moment. Plecos have come to dominate my available breeding tanks and Discus pretty much take up most of what space is left.
I only keep 15 tanks running all the time.

I lay the power head driven filter over on it's side so the power head is streaming water across the bottom and aimed to be a 90* angle to the cave openings. This also make it possible to make 75% water changes without having to unplug the power head from the electrical outlet. This is a small time saving tactic but having the strong water flow running past the cave openings seems to find favor among my group of L134. My filters severely detract from the aesthetics of my breeding tanks but I have always had a utilitarian approach to fish breeding. Making the breeding tanks functional while minimizing the efforts required to maintain them has long been my underlying strategy.
I know some breeders have been successful using only a couple of air lift sponge filters but I imagine L134 as fishes that have evolved to live and breed in fairly rapid parts of rivers so I try to simulate that kind of an environment.

I have had a lot of the same problems with L260 of infrequent breeding, ejected eggs that don't hatch and a variety of other problems many have with their L134's but I think more people are successful with L260 than are with L134. It is a mystery to me why one should do so well with one species and yet another very similar species is so problematic.

I do think I should attempt to set up another L134 breeding group using only my oldest F1's and see if I can replicate my previous success. Last year some 2 year old F1 females did spawn with wild breeding males. This year I have about 45 three year old F1 L134 to begin new colonies. My wild breeders must be 7 or more years old and I do not know how old they can be and continue to be productive breeders. I know H. zebra can breed when they are up to 12 years old and perhaps even a few years older but they tend to take longer to reach sexual maturity so it makes sense. L134 reach sexual maturity at an earlier age and therefore I fear they can not continue breeding when they are 12 years old. I am pretty sure I will be finding out sooner than later.

[Lihn]

Hi Jacob,
I think creating 2 breeding groups from the one large one is the best way to go.

To us breeders, extra males are of little value. The aggression between them plays a role in deciding which few dominant males will do most of the breeding. Perhaps if you can try 2 breeding groups with 2 dominant males each and provide them with 4 or 5 females, things may proceed smoother from here on. I have always had good success with using a US20 gal long tank for that size of breeding group. They are 12 X 12 X 30 inches; not an especially large tank but one which seems to be large enough for 2 trios. I only provide one breeding cave per male. I use pieces of Malaysian wood and the air lift and power head driven sponge filters and the females always hide under/behind the wood or under the base of the sponges. I also use one air stone. Between the air stone and airlift filters I think the dissolved O2 levels remain high. I use a MaxiJet power head to drive one of the sponge filters and that power head is rated for 600 lph/160 US gph. I use two Azoo, Pedestal type, Oxygen Plus Bio-filter model #6 because they happen to fit the included extension tube of this model of power head perfectly. Azoo claims the model #6 is suitable for tanks up to 110 gal but I do not believe them. I use the same combination in everyone of my tanks that run from the 20 gal long to a 40 gal breeder style tank and this system has worked well for me for 7 years. I only became very interested in breeding the smaller, pretty plecos 7 years ago.
Discus, Killiefish, small Anabantoids, SA Dwarf Cichlids and Characins were the fish I had mainly kept and bred before becoming so interested in breeding Catfish. I am always keeping some Discus to breed but the others come and go with my moods and interests of the moment. Plecos have come to dominate my available breeding tanks and Discus pretty much take up most of what space is left.
I only keep 15 tanks running all the time.

I lay the power head driven filter over on it's side so the power head is streaming water across the bottom and aimed to be a 90* angle to the cave openings. This also make it possible to make 75% water changes without having to unplug the power head from the electrical outlet. This is a small time saving tactic but having the strong water flow running past the cave openings seems to find favor among my group of L134. My filters severely detract from the aesthetics of my breeding tanks but I have always had a utilitarian approach to fish breeding. Making the breeding tanks functional while minimizing the efforts required to maintain them has long been my underlying strategy.
I know some breeders have been successful using only a couple of air lift sponge filters but I imagine L134 as fishes that have evolved to live and breed in fairly rapid parts of rivers so I try to simulate that kind of an environment.

I have had a lot of the same problems with L260 of infrequent breeding, ejected eggs that don't hatch and a variety of other problems many have with their L134's but I think more people are successful with L260 than are with L134. It is a mystery to me why one should do so well with one species and yet another very similar species is so problematic.

I do think I should attempt to set up another L134 breeding group using only my oldest F1's and see if I can replicate my previous success. Last year some 2 year old F1 females did spawn with wild breeding males. This year I have about 45 three year old F1 L134 to begin new colonies. My wild breeders must be 7 or more years old and I do not know how old they can be and continue to be productive breeders. I know H. zebra can breed when they are up to 12 years old and perhaps even a few years older but they tend to take longer to reach sexual maturity so it makes sense. L134 reach sexual maturity at an earlier age and therefore I fear they can not continue breeding when they are 12 years old. I am pretty sure I will be finding out sooner than later.

Hi Larry

Maybe it is me who explains me bad, but I do already have 2 breeding groups. There is about 10 fishes in both of the groups - but I think that this still is too many.
It is quite interesting the question about how many males you should have for a group of ex. 2 females. At some other forums with very experienced catfish owners, somebody says that it at least equally important to have multiple males for the few females to choose from as few males and many females. They have an idea which says that the females also wants to choose the "right male".
I can actually recognize this from one of my groups. My first group had 3 females and 4 males. All the fishes was mature and very well conditioned. I was wondering why these fishes didn't breed. I had to try something, and I bought a few new males for the group and replaced some of the old males with the new males. This was a succes and the fishes started to breed - the same females. Maybe this is just my own theory - but I think that the females also wants to choose "the right male".

I use the same filter-type for all my aquariums: HMF (Hamburger Matten Filter) driven with a powerhead of 1200 liter/hour (I think they give a little less because I have an air diffusor which block for the water), which gives a huge filtermass. To give the fishes more current in the water I have some extra powerheads I can turn on in the periods where I change a lot of water and tries to simulate the rainy season.
I haven't tried Discus yet but it's a very beautiful fish I had to try once.

I have a breeding group of L1260. They have breed here with me - but unfortunatly the few fry died because of a white spot disease which entered the aquarium due to some new plants I bought a few weeks before they spawned. The same disease caused that my female who laid the eggs died I was lucky enough to find a group with 3 adult females for sale. I bought this group immediately - there isn't many adult L260 here in Denmark.
I have had the 3 new females for about 1 month now and I hope they soon will breed.
When the L260's spawned I used tap water in the aquarium. pH around 7,5 and hardness around 15. Temperature around 28-29 degrees celsius.

You must have a lot of L134.. It sounds like you have fishes of your own brood from years behind. Nice to hear that you love the specimen so much and keeps raising your fry to adult size

[ceh]

i did have same problem so i did lover my temp on 22c and they hatch later i make higher temp because of my discus in aquarium and the hatch also on 30 C

[apistomaster]

I keep and breed L134 at 84*F/~28.4*C.
Yes, I have raised about 600 l134 over the past 3 breeding seasons from a group of 2M to 3 F, then later, after I lost one original female, I added 4 probable 2 year old F1 females. I think at least one has turned out to be a male. If mine begin breeding this spring as they have in the past, this will be my 4th year of producing enough L134 to sell.
I did withhold about 45 fish from my first successful season so now I have a large number of 3 year old F1 fish to work with.
I have about 130-140, 8 to 12 month old F1 available to sell this year.
I sell many of my L134 and L333 to Discus keepers. They both make good bottom feeders for Discus Display tanks. I advise them to not feed much beef heart to these plecos as it seems to be difficult for them to digest if it is feed to them in large quantities daily. Once in awhile, no problem and they love it. Beef heart blends are extremely popular among Discus keepers and breeders. It is the best food to use if you are breeding Discus and want to grow them to a salable size in the least amount of time, at the lowest cost. I have bred Discus commercially off and on since 1969.

It is quite opposite of my experience breeding L260. They have always been hard for me.

[Lihn]

I keep and breed L134 at 84*F/~28.4*C.
Yes, I have raised about 600 l134 over the past 3 breeding seasons from a group of 2M to 3 F, then later, after I lost one original female, I added 4 probable 2 year old F1 females. I think at least one has turned out to be a male. If mine begin breeding this spring as they have in the past, this will be my 4th year of producing enough L134 to sell.
I did withhold about 45 fish from my first successful season so now I have a large number of 3 year old F1 fish to work with.
I have about 130-140, 8 to 12 month old F1 available to sell this year.
I sell many of my L134 and L333 to Discus keepers. They both make good bottom feeders for Discus Display tanks. I advise them to not feed much beef heart to these plecos as it seems to be difficult for them to digest if it is feed to them in large quantities daily. Once in awhile, no problem and they love it. Beef heart blends are extremely popular among Discus keepers and breeders. It is the best food to use if you are breeding Discus and want to grow them to a salable size in the least amount of time, at the lowest cost. I have bred Discus commercially off and on since 1969.

It is quite opposite of my experience breeding L260. They have always been hard for me.

Nice to hear that you have this massive success with L134. I hope that I will manage to made just a fraction of all these fry.