Hybrid synos in genuine species data sheets.

[Birger]

Let's just consider the tail. If I am not mistaken, a genuine ocellifer cannot have large dark spots on the caudal fin, like the one in the above photo has.

Ahhh but look closer at the caudal...the little you see has the stripe pattern the rest is behind the rock, spots on the base of the caudal would be okay.

I will admit with the fuzzy picture and just waking up I made the call of S. ocellifer but in retrospect I do agree that it is a possibility that this is a hybrid...in the Cat-eLog I think pic 2 is a hybrid also the ones labeled farm raised, any others?

Birger

[sidguppy]

I agree with Birger, he's spot on

the one that's definitely a hybrid is the second one from the left, top row
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/im ... age_id=894
pattern is off, coloring is off, the dorsal is the wrong shape and the adipose far too small


the ones that are most likely hybrids are the following:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/im ... ge_id=8923
this one's easy! look at the postcleittral (spelling) process, it's far too narrow and daggershaped when compared to the wide spade like shape of the true ocellifer

these two - the "farm raised"- are odd:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/im ... e_id=10320
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/im ... e_id=10321
they remind me of

Synodontis notata

, or even

Synodontis nummifer

......maybe not hybrids at all, but the wrong species?
the adipose is far too small and too slung back for an ocellifer. in ocellifer the adipose starts right behind the dorsal.
especially in the picture showing a youngster it's clearly visible this is NOT an ocellifer.
what it is I have no idea

I also checked

Synodontis nummifer

, and I have more bad news; the following
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/im ... ge_id=8498
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/im ... e_id=11079
look like nummifer x decora hybrids to me.

damn this whole hybrid thing is really messing things up.

[MatsP]

I split this topic out of the one in "what's my catfish?"

I haven't looked at any of the images, someone with a better eye on Synos than me should be looking into it [although I may have a look tonight].

--
Mats

[sidguppy]

I'll check the catelog species pages asap, but now I first have to mess around with my motor; checking the 100 or so species will consume a bit of time

but I'll look into this; although I'm not exactly a scientist.

[MatsP]

I actually meant looking at THOSE pictures already mentioned in this thread. I'm sure there are loads of OTHERS to look at too. However, looking over ALL of the Synodontis species will take quite some time, and it can be done gradually over time [after all, someone will have to MOVE any of the "wrong" pictures out of the species if they are found, and whilst moving a single picture isn't hard or lengthy process, if there are lots of them, it takes some time...]

--
Mats

[Birger]

There are a few questionable ones throughout all the Synodontis species and is on my growing list of things to look at, another set of eyes would be good.

[Birger]

There are hybrids mixed in some pages...as stated above.

Question is what do we do with them, put them into the hybrid thread or a data page??

Birger

[jippo]

There are hybrids mixed in some pages...as stated above.Birger

I agree.

I can see a huge difference with drawings of bastiani? Only pic number 3 is 100% correct. Other three drawings looks something else. Or are they drawings of eburneensis? http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/im ... ge_id=5395

I will check more when I got time, too much work to do at the moment .

[Jools]

I can see a huge difference with drawings of bastiani? Only pic number 3 is 100% correct. Other three drawings looks something else. Or are they drawings of eburneensis? http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/im ... ge_id=5395

As I understand it they are juvenile and adult forms. They correspond well with the pictures, the veracity of which I am happy with.

Jools

[Birger]

Putting this here more as a reminder to myself...pic 12 in

Synodontis greshoffi

looks to be a hybrid.

Birger

[Jools]

Putting this here more as a reminder to myself...pic 12 in

Synodontis greshoffi

looks to be a hybrid.

Birger

If it is (as opposed to wrongly IDed), then the other pictures by the same photographer for that species also need looked at.

Jools

[Viktor Jarikov]

It's a bear of a task, guys and gals, and I am very glad someone is doing something about it. Having the Cat-eLog and especially the pics right, or as right as it reasonably can be, is one of the biggest assets of this website and IMO is the most powerful thing amongst those that draw in new blood, making us all collectively stronger. Thank you!!! Sorry for ranting - I am sure all know this already; guess, just wanted to thank you.

[The.Dark.One]

Anyone think it could be this one

synodontis aterrima

?

Are you synobuffs happy that the clog pic for aterrima is actually that species? It looks like a hybrid to me.

[MatsP]

Good question. I'm not a syno-buff, so can't say for sure. But there are some that certainly look more like S. euptera with the wrong body pattern.

--
Mats

[MatsP]

I split this out from the original thread here:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 13&t=33173

--
Mats

[Birger]

This kind of goes together with this thread, http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =3&t=30616 but is a good reminder to get after it.

Can you Steve (and anyone else) list the problem images for

Synodontis aterrima

and we can all compare opinuions.

Birger

[The.Dark.One]

I'll be honest and say that I don't think any of the pics (apart from the preserved one of course!) are aterrima. They all look like hybrids to me. There were a lot of these euptera x pick-one-of-a-few hybrids about at one point and when they were young they were being sold as aterrima. For example, this was sold as aterrima:
http://www.scotcat.com/thedarkone/mocho ... hybrid.jpg

I think that image 1 is the same or similar hybrid that I have on my scotcat images as sp. 'zebrinus, and the others are euptera hybrids.

Similarly the pics for koensis aren't that species either IMO. I have seen that fish in the photos in life. It is like a cross between a schoutedeni and something else. It is similar to adult 'zebrina' which were being sold as koensis (see my scotcat images for adult pics and some very young ones - 5cm or so). In the clog hybrid 3 image 1 shows a juvenile hybrid like the 'zebrinus' but the others in the clog for hybrid 3 shows an euptera like hybrid (similar to the ones in the clog as aterrima), whereas in my images the adult of sp 3 is more like the 'koensis' in the clog. In short I think there is a mixture of hybrids in aterrima, hybrid 3, and potentially koensis, and certainly (IMO) none of them are koensis or aterrima. I cant be certain about the last image under aterrima as I dont know its provenance but I dont think it is aterrima either.

On the fish in the clog as koensis the post cleithral (humeral process is far too narrow for koensis) - see holotype

http://acsi.acnatsci.org/base/getthumbn ... get=128362

[Birger]

It is great to have the response on these...I did merge the S. aterrima topic with the Hybrid synos in genuine species data sheets topic to keep it all together.

Promise won't move it anymore.

The ones mentioned so far definately need work except

Synodontis bastiani

I agree it is okay.

Birger

[Richard B]

I'll be honest and say that I don't think any of the pics (apart from the preserved one of course!) are aterrima.

I tend to agree and have written a few times before that what i thought was aterrima was the fish depicted in Sands - the book published by salamandr and CotW vol 2 - a true inverting and dwarf species that i saw in Sands shop and was vastly different to what is offered as aterrima today

[Jools]

I agree that several pics should be moved out, possibly to S. eupterus. I am mindful also that farm bred fish are not necessarily hybrids - that makes life even harder still. The fish in picture slots 1 and 7 (from Nate) was reportedly imported from Africa, and is quite old. So, we should be careful calling that a hybrid.

Another thing to note is that the smaller Synodontis species are much harder to artificially reproduce according to an old CAGB article from a Czech speaker at their conference yonks ago.

Jools

[Birger]

Moved to resolved.