A little more than questionable concern..

[lunchspank]

So I have this Rhamdia I purchased about 6 months ago. Recently, he has been appearing sick (not eating, being lethargic) and when my catfish was in it's comatose state, my pleco took to nibbling his scale-less brown coloring off, then it was infected, and my Oscar too noticed and began to nibble at him as well, I have removed all the fish, bought plenty of melafix, and his condition seems to have worsen, after a complete water change.
quite frankly I'm surprised he's alive right now, because all his flesh, and body is to the bone from the anus back. I've been really concerned, and need opinions on either what it is, and if I should just cut my losses.

[MatsP]

Could you tell us what your water conditions are:
1. Temperature
2. pH
3. Nitrate (NO3-), Nitrite (NO2-) and ammonia levels (NH3/NH4+).
4. Water hardness (GH) and alkalinity (KH)

5. How often do you make water changes, and how much water do you change?


If you don't have tests to check the above water condition parameters, your local fish-shop should be able to perform the tests (there may be a small fee, but some shops even do water tests for free).

6. What size is the tank?

7. What is the filtration on the tank?

8. You have mentioned an Oscar and a pleco (presumably

Pterygoplichthys pardalis

) - is there any other fish in the tank?

9. Have you done anything to treat the fish/problems?

I must say, if the fish is as bad as you describe, and the flesh is stripped from the body from tail to anus, then I'd say the best approach is probably to humanely euthanize the poor fish to end it's suffering. I'd still check up on the above water parameters, for the safety of the other members in the tank.

Edit: Also moved this post to the "South American Catfish (Everything else)" section, where Rhamdia species belong.

--
Mats

[lunchspank]

Hey, thanks for getting back to me so soon.
Well here's my routine.

2 55 gallons.

I do weekly to bi-weekly water changes (1/4 to 1/2)
I check the PH once a month
1 55 has 1 60-80 Gal. rated filter
1 acrylic 55 has 2 40 gal filters (all power filters)
I add the properly measured freshwater salt
and when any fish gets some kind of nick or bad scratch, I get melafix and pimafix for safe measures.

the only fish that were with my rhamdia were the oscar (which until the catfish showed signs of damage, were totally respectable of their space)
the pleco (which initiated the progression of its sickness by suckermouthing his body)
and my electric catfish which I got 2 months before this happened, but when introduced him into the tank, I melafix'd it then too.

it's been bummin me out lately. because he was my first catfish I ever bought (and my favorite).

[lunchspank]

Also. how does one humanely euthanize a fish? it's going to be depressing either way.

[apistomaster]

Also. how does one humanely euthanize a fish? it's going to be depressing either way.

Jungle Laboratories makes a tablet loaded with Clove Oil which first anesthetizes then "humanely" suffocates the fish.
Personally, I either slam a suffering fish as hard as I can on a concrete floor or smash their heads with some club or hammer. Death is instantaneous.

[lunchspank]

Also. how does one humanely euthanize a fish? it's going to be depressing either way.

Jungle Laboratories makes a tablet loaded with Clove Oil which first anesthetizes then "humanely" suffocates the fish.
Personally, I either slam a suffering fish as hard as I can on a concrete floor or smash their heads with some club or hammer. Death is instantaneous.

Fuuuuuuu....

Well. I'm going to have to do it regardless.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Sorry for your loss.

I notice how you avoid stating what the pH was/is and any other water parameters. To us, it means you don't know them.

If one is serious about providing the best conditions for their pet fishes, it is highly advisable to keep track of at least 5 water parameters: temp, pH, NH3, NO2, and NO3. Not every day, but say monthly and also immediately when the first and slightest signs of problems arise. A good test kit, e.g., API 4-test liquid kit, costs $25 and provides for hundreds of measurements.

Pimafix/melafix is not a panacea for any problem. Some serious fish keepers have gone so far to profess that these don't work anyway (not me). If you have "bad" water, adding meds, how ever natural they may be, will most likely make things worse.

[apistomaster]

I am one of those Viktor is referring to with regard to holding the opinion that Melafix and Pimafix are useless. Many fish recover without treatment so without proper tests the makers of these products can not offer any evidence that their products perform better than placebos(which is how I categorize them).
Proven drugs will always perform better than these homeopathic fish "patent medicines". I know people are divided over the merits of alternative medicine and this will naturally carry over to their fish if those are their beliefs but there is no real evidence they work.
I have given them both a try and from my limited experience I found them useless.
There is a large body of accurate information concerning the efficacy of real drugs in their use for treating fish diseases but only snatches of anecdotal information regarding the efficacy of Pimafix and Melafix.

I often say I belong to the Grace Slick(When she belonged to the acid rock band, The Jefferson Airplane) school of thought which springs from a quote of her's wherein she said, "I don't care if there are are chemicals in it as long as my lettuce is crisp".

[lunchspank]

Sorry for your loss.

I notice how you avoid stating what the pH was/is and any other water parameters. To us, it means you don't know them.

If one is serious about providing the best conditions for their pet fishes, it is highly advisable to keep track of at least 5 water parameters: temp, pH, NH3, NO2, and NO3. Not every day, but say monthly and also immediately when the first and slightest signs of problems arise. A good test kit, e.g., API 4-test liquid kit, costs $25 and provides for hundreds of measurements.

Pimafix/melafix is not a panacea for any problem. Some serious fish keepers have gone so far to profess that these don't work anyway (not me). If you have "bad" water, adding meds, how ever natural they may be, will most likely make things worse.

oh yeah, my Ph is at an 8 (optimal for rhamdia's) but sometimes it'll drop to a 6. which is usually the time I do water exchanges.

temp is around 78-80 degress (varies on how hot the day is sometimes)

[lunchspank]

Also it's not like my water is chemically treated, in the area I live in, I am so fortunate enough to have my own water well.

[MatsP]

Right, I belong to the same camp as Larry (Apistomaster) when it comes to Melafix/Pimafix. They may well have their usage, but I'm pretty certain they do not cure all illneses that they claim to cure! And they certainly DO lower the oxygen level the water can carry.

The implication that "Natural" means "can't cause problems" is clearly false: Strychnin is a natural product - it still kills an adult person with a very small amount. Likewise, Rotenone is a product used to stun/kill fish in water - it comes from the root of a Central/South American plant. Not to mention the huge number of mushrooms that kill humans if eaten.

Now, you STILL haven't answered what your nitrate, nitrite and ammonia values are. And the fact that your pH varies between 6 and 8 is not a good sign at all. Is this your tap-water being variable or the water in the tank?

--
Mats

[racoll]

Not being in full possession of the facts, it is hard to say exactly what caused the demise of your fish. However, I have noticed a few things in your post which might warrant attention.

the only fish that were with my rhamdia were the oscar, the pleco, and my electric catfish

Now the electric catfish could have been causing a lot of distress to the Rhamdia, especially if it took a dislike to it.

I add the properly measured freshwater salt

Now adding salt to treat this kind of wound/disease is a good idea, but adding salt routinely to a tank of freshwater fishes can never be recommended. It does them no good at all.

oh yeah, my Ph is at an 8 (optimal for rhamdia's) but sometimes it'll drop to a 6. which is usually the time I do water exchanges.

I do weekly to bi-weekly water changes (1/4 to 1/2)

So in the space of 3-7 days the tank gets a thousand times more acidic! This indicates your well water is very poorly buffered, and this should really be addressed. Overfeeding and a lot of muck in the gravel will also increase the acidity.

[MatsP]

I do weekly to bi-weekly water changes (1/4 to 1/2)

So in the space of 3-7 days the tank gets a thousand times more acidic! This indicates your well water is very poorly buffered, and this should really be addressed. Overfeeding and a lot of muck in the gravel will also increase the acidity.

A hundred times more acidic. I think "biweekly" is referring to "every two weeks" rather than "twice a week", but I may have that wrong.

--
Mats

[racoll]

Right you are on both counts Mats. That's still a huge change though.

Wiktionary says it's a British thing to call biweekly, twice weekly (and hence the correct way, of course ;)).

[Viktor Jarikov]

Lunchspank, we are all trying to help you. Do not misinterpret.

Mats is a walking encyclopedia of random fish knowledge and Racoll is a professional ichthyologist. So you are getting a premium help, rest assured.

Yes, pH change is worrysome - you'd be well advised to get to the bottom of this 100-fold swing. If it goes back to 8 right after your water change, it'd cause a huge stress on fish, hence, weakening of the immune system, hence, health problems, hence, infection, hence, death.

Maybe you could relate: it's not unlike if you'd be suddenly transported from the sea level to 5000-10,000 feet elevation. You would not feel very well and become a bit stressed, to say the least.

Biweekly in US means once in two weeks, whenever I encountered it. Good (and disturbing in a way) to know it is different in UK, cuz I'd take it for granted as being the same as in US.

[MatsP]

Living in Britain, and having been brought up on a "diet" of US and British TV, Magazines and Literature, I'm never QUITE sure what the correct meaning of something is. I would probably use the less ambiguous term of "25-50% every two weeks" - just like I don't like writing dates as 21/7/11 or 7/21/11 (in this case, it's pretty obvious), but prefer 21-Jul-2011 - there is NO way the latter can be misunderstood by someone who has a reasonable understanding of dates... On dates, I'm further confused by the fact that standard Swedish way is 11/7/21 (or 11/07/21 or 110721, which is easier to deal with in computers - for example if you sort this format of date, you can use the built-in sorting of numbers in the computer to get it right, without having to manipulate it into a different order).

I'm also never quite sure which is British and US of: lift/elevator, skedule and shedule pronunciation. I used to ask for "Gas-station" in Britain, and they just look at you like you are a bit mad, rather than point you to a petrol station.

It is very confusing at times.

--
Mats

[Bas Pels]

Actually, I think it might have to do with your accent: someone with a British accent asking for the gas station (American name) is a bit odd, isn't it?

That why I'm happy I still have a Dutch accent: Everybody is happy they understand me, as my English far beats their Dutch

[MatsP]

I'm sure when I first arrived in England (a good 15 years back), my accent was quite noticeable. But I think it also matters WHERE (or who) you ask... These days, most people don't even ask where I come from until we've talked some time, and foreigners say things like "Oh, I thought you were native...".

--
Mats

[lunchspank]

You guys all lost me, but I'm fairly sure the PH of the water can also correlate with the Nitrate, Nitrite, and ammonia. Especially seeing that ammonia is a base, or "alkaline" and seeing since nitrite can increase the PH of a water, I use simple water PH tests to keep it in a ball park range, and the reason I let it go to 8.0 is because the electric and the rhamdia can live in a range of 7.0 to 8.6 (if I'm not mistaken)but regardless, my rhamdia has died, and I'm moving on.

Think I'll buy some other kind of large fish.

[MatsP]

The amount of ammonia needed to make fish ill is much lower than the level you need to change the pH to any measurable degree - about 1 part per million [ppm] (1mg per liter) starts to be harmful to fish, and level of 5 ppm is lethal to most fish almost instantly. You can not, even with a accurate pH meter, tell if there is lethal levels of ammonia or nitrite in the water by measuring the pH.

pH is closely related to KH, which in turn generally follows the GH measurement - but not always.

If your KH is low, then the pH will swing/change quickly, and these changes can be harmful to the fish.

--
Mats

[Viktor Jarikov]

NH3, as Mats explained, has no relevance to pH in our hobby/application.

NO2 and NO3 have 1,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 times, respectively, less relevance than NH3 with respect to pH. Hence, nil.

When it is said that a fish can live in such and such pH range, it does not by any means imply that the pH can swing, however fast, within that range and the fish will remain fine.

One of the cornerstones of good fish-keeping is knowing that the water parameters should be acceptable to your pet and stable (over time) and keeping them such.

[knifegill]

and my electric catfish

Just sayin'.

[Bas Pels]

One of the cornerstones of good fish-keeping is knowing that the water parameters should be acceptable to your pet and stable (over time) and keeping them such.

Most often this is the case. However, some fishes prefer chances of the waterparameters. Xiphophorus, for instance, do better with colder nights

sub tropical fishes are adaped to colder winters and warmer summers. Some of them, for instance the ones inhabiting small rivers in a treeless country such as Uruguay are also adapted to facing relatively cold nights.

Problem is, providing colder nights than days is quite expensive if the tank is indoors (in a tank in the garden this will be easy) and the same goes for changes in winter/summer temperature.

After all, a tank in the livingroom will face the livingroom temperature. Rarely less than 18 C in winter, more often 20 C or more in winter.