Who here de-worms new fish as a matter of course

[xingumike]

I am having a juvi L330 shipped to me from Malaysia in a week or so.

The LFS bringing it in has been the only source of 'fancy' L's since I arrived in Dubai, I sold my entire collection when I left the UK 4 years ago.

Who here deworms new WC additions as a matter of course? Not sure whether to do it or introduce and then keep an eye out for any issues. It has been at the place in Malaysia for a few weeks and I will be QT at the shop bringing it in for me when it arrives.

Advice and opinions welcomed.

[MatsP]

I'm not regularly doing it, but I don't really see a reason NOT to treat with some (mix of?) Flubendazole, Metrondiazole and/or Praziquantel.

--
Mats

[xingumike]

Ok thanks Mats, I may do it in situ at the LFS to be safe.

Just need to figure what meds are available here, fish should arrive in a week or so.

[Linus_Cello]

Some folks on PC do. See this thread: www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=29153

[xingumike]

Will have a read of that now, thanks.

A guy who keeps discus on a marine forum here buys albendazole over the counter from a chemist and uses that.

Anyone see any issues with doing this? Said metronidazole will also do, he uses 1 gram for his 100 gal.

Kusuri will deliver here if i can't find locally but i am not sure it would get through customs.

[apistomaster]

I always treat my new wild Discus and Plecos with Flubendazole, Metrondiazole and Praziquantel.
I use them all at once and continue to treat for 30 days. It does not take that long to rid most of the mature and young parasites but in the case of the worms and flukes there will be eggs which survive and hatch later.

Metrondiazole does not have any effect on worms and flukes but it is used to treat flagellates like Hexamita and Spironucleus. These reside in the gut. Since these medications are safe you may as well treat all the most common parasites afflicting many wild fish while you are at it.
You need to make your routine water changes and replace the amount of medication you have removed to keep the dose constant.
I also treat wild Apistogramma and Pterophyllum(Angelfish) the same way.
Even if you use the extended treatment period I use it may be necessary to repeat the treatment one more time about six to twelve months later. I mostly do this with my wild Discus. I do not treat a third time.

[MatsP]

Most internal parasites are killed by any of the different "azole" [careful how you say that... ;)], so unless you have very specific worms, that sounds like as good as any other.

Obviously, as Larry (Apistomaster) says, different compounds will cover different parasites, and it clearly would be better to cover more different parasites. But it is likely sufficient to use one type of medication...

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

Hi Mat,
Why would you feel only one medication is needed if there are diverse parasites present?
It would be very unusual for a wild fish to only be infested by a single parasite.

[MatsP]

Well, of course, there are generally a multitude of parasites, and the immune system, under normal circumstances is capable of coping with these. In an ideal situation, you'd medicate with a wide range of parasite medications (or analyse what is there and then medicate accordingly). If you kill of a good portion of the parasites, then the immune system has less "to worry about", so hopefully can cope with the remainder. That's my theory at least...

However, in the situation where one medication is easily available and the others are hard to find (buying medication in England to get it shipped to Arab countries is not the ideal situation).

And as I mentioned, any of the above medication kills quite a broad range of parasites, but to kill "everything", you need several different products.

--
Mats

[Shane]

Unless you have a specific reason that you believe the fish are carrying internal parasites it makes no sense to medicate for an ailment the fish are unlikely to be suffering from.
This is especially true with Panaque spp. It has long been suggested that some medications used in aquaria destroy Panaque's gut flora, leading to an inability to properly digest food, and eventual starvation.
-Shane

@Mats, locational info in the Cat-eLog is incorrect. They are not from the Orinoco drainage, but rather are caught near Florencia in the Rios Orteguaza and Caqueta, which in turn flows into the Amazon. Those pics of

Panaque cf_nigrolineatus

in the Cat-eLog by me were collected there.

[Suckermouth]

This is especially true with Panaque spp. It has long been suggested that some medications used in aquaria destroy Panaque's gut flora, leading to an inability to properly digest food, and eventual starvation.
-Shane

As a note, IIRC Donovan German's research showed that Panaque guts are pretty much the same as non-wood-eaters like Pterygoplichthys.

[Shane]

Milton,
German did not find significant differences in the gut length between the two genera and theorized that this did not support that Panaque have unique gut flora.

However, take a look at Nelson et al

Wood-eating catfishes of the genus Panaque :
gut microflora and cellulolytic enzyme activities

The purpose of the present work was to see whether enzymes involved in the break down of complex carbon polymers found in wood are present in Panaque guts and whether microorganisms cultured from the guts of Panaque have similar enzymatic activity. Fresh gut contents of both Panaque and a generalized loricariid (Liposarcus sp. ) had enzymatic activity directed against both cellulose and hemicellulose. Furthermore, aerobic cultures made from the guts of Panaque exhibited growth on a minimal salts medium containing only crystalline cellulose as a carbon source as well as on a variety of other substrates containing carbon polymers found in wood. Anaerobic cultures made from Panaque guts only grew with glucose as a carbon source. Cultures of whole gut contents grown on a yeast extract basal salts medium had significant cellulolytic activity. However, no culture of individual microbes had significant cellulolytic activity, suggesting that any cellulose breakdown which occurs in loricariid guts is by a consortium of microorganisms. A variety of aerobes, microaerophiles and facultative anaerobes were found in the guts of Panaque ; several of these bacteria appear to be new species. (my emphasis)

Whether the flora are in the fish's gut, or occur on the wood as German suggested, I think it possible that they are killed by some medications. It may turn out that the condition is not at all related to gut flora, but there is 20 plus years of aquarium literature documenting Panaque spp appearing to starve to death after being treated with aquarium medications.

-Shane

[apistomaster]

With regard to the original premise, de-worming, it would be mainly wide spectrum antibiotics that could be potentially a problem for gut flora and I have never known of anyone citing antibiotics as being of any use in de-worming fish nor any other animals.

Same is true of biological filters. The drugs I routinely use on certain groups of newly imported wild fish do not harm the bacteria that make biological filters work.
The anti-flagellate and antihelminthic drugs have no practical effects on bacteria to the best of my knowledge.

I do not have any particular interest in the larger catfish so I have no experience treating them. About all I know from experience is that fish tape worms are commonly found in the guts of wild Channel Catfish. I have found some tape worms inside of 30 inch/75 cm Channel Catfish that were about twice as long as the fish.

[racoll]

As far as I know, the treatments Larry recommends are specific enough not to have any serious side effects, and can therefore be recommended as a quarantine shotgun approach (unlike many other fish medicines).

[apistomaster]

An azole is a class of five-membered nitrogen heterocyclic ring compounds containing at least one other non-carbon atom of either nitrogen, sulfur, or oxygen.

Just because many drugs have an azole component structure, and that is reflected in the substance's name, it usually has little bearing on what the drug's specific modality is.

I actually do not use fish medications very often. Probably 90% of the time it is a part of my procedure handling newly imported or shipped fish which either already show signs of a disease or have a very high probability of being infected and I will deal with that probability prophylactically.
The rest of the time I am probably using one of the medicinal dyes to help reduce the chances of fungus on fish eggs or in the treatment of Ich and similar protozoan skin parasites. On rare occasions will use an antibiotic for a disease like Flexibacter columnaris

[xingumike]

Some excellent and reasoned arguments for and against here, thanks to all for the input so far.

The fish should be here in a week or so and I intend to keep it with the LFS that it is importing it for a minimum of 2 weeks so it can settle and get feeding, I don't have QT facilities at home unfortunately.

I will likely make a judgement call on whether to treat or not based upon how the fish looks, looking out for usual sunken belly, eyes and general activity of the fish.

Perhaps I am being overly cautious but I fo feel a burden of responsibility to do the best I can having dragged it to Dubai from South America via Malaysia! Also its not a cheap acquisition.

[Bas Pels]

Personally I would say, if it ain't broken, don't fix it - so use of preventive medications is something I rather not do. Still, many deseases only show when they are hard or impossible to cure, thus in some cases one has to use preventives.

Still, these fishes are kept quite long in captivity, and therefore I would not use any medication.

But, I would like to have some on the shelf - to be used in case of trouble without any more trouble

[apistomaster]

It is always difficult to advise on this question on a forum with world wide membership. The laws governing the availability and accessibility of drugs vary enormously. It is easy to get single active ingredient forms of the drugs in the USA use but in many countries if you want to use praziquantel, for example, the only easy way is to buy a dog deworming preparation such as Droncit but Droncit Plus has three other drugs besides praziquantel in it. It isn't formulated specifically for aquarium use. Sometimes this can matter and sometimes it doesn't depending on the drugs.

Another big difference is how many parties are involved in the distribution chain and what if any medications have already been used. Most companies with good reputations do begin to treat for common parasites but the operative word is "begin". It takes a full course of treatment which reasonable people can define very differently but unless the distributors aren't selling many fish the chances are high that they have not kept the fish long enough to complete a course of treatment.
Even reputable companies frequently turn over their stock faster than it takes to properly treat most parasites. Many companies will get fish in and ship them out within the same day. The main point is unless you are controlling every aspect of their capture through importation to your tanks you really have no way of knowing where you stand.

This leaves one with only a couple of options; accept on faith that nothing will go wrong or be proactive and know for certain whether or not your fish have been treated for the most common parasites. There is always the wait and see option but I feel much better having a well stocked fish medicine chest, a known treatment period so I have my own baseline and am not reacting to a problem after the fact that my new fish seem to have something wrong a week or two later. It is really a matter of risk management and every hobbyist and ornamental fish trade business has their own comfort zones which for those in the business is to sell the fish before they die or become obviously too far gone to sell. The problem is that there are so many fish businesses which cut corners when and wherever they can. This isn't a big deal if it is a discount electronics product seller but it is when the product is livestock.

[Shane]

Larry,
Firstly, your above posting very well thought out and should probably form the basis for a "to medicate or not medicate in quarantine" sticky.

My own fishroom medicine cabinet consist of a bottle of Melafix, a bottle of Pimafix, and some ich treatment capsules I bought years ago that probably need to be thrown out. I probably have not used any medication in over a year, and even then, it was probably a splash of Melafix to help with some burned fins after transport. However, as you note, I control my fishes from capture to captivity. It is VERY rare to have wild caught fishes come down with any of the common aquarium fish ailments. At worst it may be necessary to treat the uncommon external worm-type parasite.

My own experiences aside, I am very careful in recommending that people medicate because 1) different medications may or may not be available in any country and 2) very, very few hobbyists have the equipment or resources to correctly identify the exact ailment in question. It is a rare hobbyist indeed that has a microscope, chemist's equipment, and professional fish disease texts in their fishroom. Because of these two factors most aquarists will resort to the broad-based treatments available in the hobby and these can have as many negative as positive effects. These treatments are broad-based because, at best, they are hoping the hobbyist has narrowed the ailment down to bacterial, fungal, or viral. They do not expect a hobbyist to know if they are treating a gram positive or gram negative bacteria.

I can't recommend against a hobbyist that is knowledgeable about drugs and treatments medicating "just in case," but I still think it is generally a bad idea for the typical hobbyist to do the same.

-Shane

[apistomaster]

Hi Shane,
I am glad you found value in my post.

I began delving into diagnosing and experimenting with treatments a long time ago. I never had a lab at my disposal but I had four things that I found essential back in circa 1969 and today.
A dissection kit, a decent microscope, a cooperative pharmacist and a first edition copy of C. van Dujin's book, Diseases of Fishes. I loaned the book and of course never got it back but I did a quick search and found the 3rd edition was available on eBay and I am going to snatch a copy of it right away. I don't know if he covered parasitic worms in this newest edition but much has been published in recent years so I have been able to stay current.
Here is the link to the listing for only US $9.99. I know I paid closer to $40 back in 1969. I'm ordering it today. It was the definitive text back then. It emphasized major aquaculture of food and game fish but tropical fish were not over looked. I am especially interested in whether the 3rd edition includes antihelminthics. I was already experimenting with Flagyl on with Discus in 1968. That is the trade name in the USA for metronidiazole now that it is available as a generic drug.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Diseases-Fishes-C-v ... 0545190869
EDIT: I noticed when I ordered it that it is a first edition copy 1974. I am pretty sure van Dujin is dead now. It doesn't matter. It is a real treasure if you can get even the old original edition.

I do not consider Melafix and Pimafix fish medications. I think of them as tonics we add to fish tanks to make us feel better because many people do believe in homeopathic alternative treatments. I am not one of them. I'm afraid I only trust drugs which have been reviewed and approved, and one no longer approved by FDA for humans, chloramphenicol but to each their own. Chloramphenicol is now only used as a last resort because so many patients get fatal aplastic anemia. I do not worry about that for fish. It is a very potent broad spectrum antibiotic which is extremely difficult for most people to get. Many major fish importers use it as do I when I buy their fish but it takes connections in the USA to obtain any. I think there are exceptions with regard to veterinary uses. I can't say who I get it from and none of the major fish importers will share their sources either. I could not legally transfer or sell any to others. I can say is it helps if you know someone who is doing microbiological research for a company or research organization. There is an underground market but it isn't cheap. DiscusHans, the USA distributor of Stendker Discus and Hudson the current big shot exporter of primo wild Discus make extensive use of the medications I have placed high on my list of essential meds. He was being coy about how he got his kilo stash of it of simplydiscus. Of course, his fish don't ever get sick so it is a mystery why he needs to keep it in stock. I mentioned this because hobbyists all have their ideas about what medications they need if at all but let me tell you, it is a fact that all the big exporters and importers use a lot of the medications I have mentioned and some will even claim they never sell fish until they have kept them a couple months and de-wormed and otherwise treat their fish before they sell them. They are lying, my friends. Many just take orders then go to a really big importer and pick up the fish they have sold with a lot of false hype. The fish business is very sleazy; even the best make claims which are not true. I have been in this business at various levels over the years and anyone else who has but is not now will confirm the truth in what I say. The good thing is that fish are generally very resilient and that is something that MatsP basically
alluded to in a previous post.

[xingumike]

I am in the office so have not had chance to read the above properly, just wanted to state that I know that it hasn't been dewormed in Malaysia.

I have been in direct contact (was easier for both me and my importer) with them, when asked about deworming their reply is below

'Need to be frank with you , di not do deworming. Quarantine in the tanks for 2 weeks before export but we do put antibiotic to clean the body'

They also sent me the temp and pH it was kept in.

I am not sure how to play it now, leaning back towards holding off until I see something to worry about.

Can't wait to see the little fella now, been a while since I saw anything more exotic than P gibbiceps and p. pardalis.

Will re read the above replies this evening over a cold one, thanks Larry, Shane and Bas.