"Unscrupulous aquabid seller" continued

[Marc van Arc]

As I don't want to pollute Apistomaster's thread ( http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 78#p254270) any further, I've put a reaction here in Speak Easy.

First off, since last August I stepped down as a Moderator – and for a reason.
No longer having to deal with and/or getting insulted by people like Vinman took some weight of my back. I do this in my spare time – need I say more? Of course all mods do this in their spare time, but perhaps their skins are a bit thicker than mine.
Btw: the fact that he only changed his posting due to pressure from the mods & admin also says enough imo.

I’m against cursing, let that be clear. When I posted, I also immediately send a warning to the mods about my own posting.
Nevertheless, he had one coming for implying a homosexual relationship between Sidguppy and myself somewhere in the “deformed Ancistrus” thread. It has now either been edited out or removed completely, but my memory still serves me right. At the time I couldn’t say what I wanted about it (being a mod) and apparently no-one else found it necessary to say something about it – which still surprises me. Anyone is free to call this childish. However, imo some insults go too far - like this one.

It’s known that I’m no big fan of the USA. If it’s any consolation, I’m not a big fan of the Netherlands either.
That doesn’t mean that I think all Americans are “bad” people. There must be millions that are doing their utmost to make the best of life, just like myself.
The mistake I make is that I let politics in – which I shouldn’t do as it doesn’t belong on a forum about catfishes. I’m sorry for that.
In this particular case I was also sarcastically referring to someone who claims to have the freedom of speech, but does nothing with it except causing arguments and mudsling.
If “bla bla bla” is considered as such, we’d all better be silent.

I’m going to reconsider my role on the forum once again. It may be an option to disappear completely – like MatsP and Sidguppy. A little drastic maybe, but who knows.
We’ll find out in due course.

Best regards,
Marc van Arc

[wrasse]

Marc, I have completely missed all the posting you are referring to...

All I would say is that I very much enjoy your contribution to PC, particularly on woodcats. Please stay.

- Richard

[Marc van Arc]

Thanks for your reply Richard.
Pls bear in mind that the above is neither a threat nor a plea for support.
It's just about how I "work" and who I am and some thinking out loud.

[wrasse]

Marc, I didn't read it as a threat or a plea.

[Yann]

Marc!

As Wrasse I don't recall the post you are refering to!
Also not sure to understand the purpose of this tread...
Cheers
Yann

[Viktor Jarikov]

Just my thoughts, of course:

Thanks, Marc. Sorry, I didn't know you were no longer a mod - just as I said above (in the original thread), I think the Moderator status should be prominently signified, not implied.

Not only I’m against cursing too, I am against holding grudges and against perpetuating evil by engaging in an ever nastier, escalating exchange and I am for simply ignoring and avoiding any one I do not get along with. If they are wrong often, they will get themselves banned sooner or later.

SidGuppy had accumulated three warnings and was banned against his volition. I think I speak for almost all when I say his unique and tremendous expertise is surely and sorely missed here. But what happened to Mats Peterson??? I did notice I have not seen his post in a long time and I used to see his posts literally everywhere.

You have helped me personally many times on the forums and in personal exchanges. Needless to say I wish you don't burn the bridges.

[mdwflyer]

Here is 2 cents from an outside observer.

If you have stepped down from being a mod, good for you. It's a tough job, I've done it although not on a forum with participation with people from so many different cultures and backgrounds.

Getting into a confrontation over "caps lock" to the point of personal insults and cursing really is not necessary is it?

You say you don't like cursing, it does not bother me one way or the other if you do. Just leave it off the forum, further to that regarding this post:

Re: Unscrupulous aquabid seller
by Marc van Arc » Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:11 pm

Why don't you go edit or delete the post yourself?

This was meant to be constructive, not personal.

Good luck,

[vinman]

Marc, I personaly would like to see a end to the BS. Look I have nothing agenist you.I understand your stand on the hybrid Issue but there is a time and a place to voice your oppions. The problem you have with pure animals with multiple gene mutations is another thing all together. I for one was not the one that attacked you . You and Sidguppy have came on many of my ad's and post and attcked my fish or me and ruined the threads. I'm going to ask that you please refrain for negitive comments about what I post. It is a different story if I'm asking for peoples oppions then that is a what I ask for. The fact is you came off very nasty with your comments that had nothing to do with the threads I posted. There was no deformed Ancistrus thread, I posted a picture of a LF bristle nose pleco and wanted to know what color morph it was and you go off and start crap about it being deformed and it was not. Please lay off me !!!!!

I understand that your very knowledgeable about catfish and I'm sure the forum needs a guy like you on here. All I ask is that you drop the grudge and stop forcing your oppion where it is not asked for. All I'm asking you to is be respectful towards me and I will do the same to you. Please for the sake of the forum stop the BS. The reason I don't come on here much is because of you and Sidguppy attacking my posts. I would like the past between us to be water under the bridge. Let go from this day forward in a new begining.If you see something I post that you don't like please have the self control to bite your tounge. If I ask for a oppions please have the courtesy to give me your oppion worded in a nice way. We are all fish heads Marc so let try to get along.

[kruseman]

I understand that your very knowledgeable about catfish

Yes, he is.

and I'm sure the forum needs a guy like you on here.

It certainly does.

All I ask is stop forcing your oppion where it is not asked for.

That is what a forum is for: Commenting on what people post. As a forummember one is entitled to have an opinion.
Based on knowledge and readiness to keep our pets properly, ofcourse. Marc always posts from those 2 basic rules.

What kind of a forum will PC be when everybody is only allowed to make positive comments? Pretty worthless in my opinion.

[vinman]

kruseman

No one is saying not to have a opinion. There are times when comments are uncalled for nor do they have to do anything about the topic at hand. When someone post a pic of a fish and is asking what kind of morph it is . Degrading comments are uncalled for because you don't like gene mutations. No one is asking for anybodies opinions weather like the fish or weather the like gene mutations. They have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Thats where I'm coming from I made that quite clear in my post. All I was asking was the BNP was a LF Calico or was it a LF chocolate. I was looking for help to try to identifiy what morph it was. No need for rude comments on how they felt about gene mutations. Now if i was to post a pic and asked what people thought about the fish that would be another story.
Please don't twist my words around. All I asked for is to stop the unwanted negative comments and stay on the topic. If a person is asking for peoples opinions then do so but in a nice way. No need to be nasty . In other words have some class.

[kruseman]

In other words have some class.

Well, that's a good one!
Give it a go, I would say.

[vinman]

In other words have some class.

Well, that's a good one!
Give it a go, I would say.

no need to be nasty so you might want to try it yourself
No need for your comment it is totally uncalled for. please dont try to start a piss war. Everyone is being polight here, please do the same

[kruseman]

You're right. I'm sorry.

That's something you might want to consider as well : Making apologies, looking in mirrors and the like.

[vinman]

You're right. I'm sorry.

That's something you might want to consider as well : Making apologies, looking in mirrors and the like.

it is cool how about you delete your last 2 post I I will do the same with this one and the one before it. This way it looks best for the forum and us both

[Bas Pels]

All I was asking was the BNP was a LF Calico or was it a LF chocolate. I was looking for help to try to identifiy what morph it was. No need for rude comments on how they felt about gene mutations.

I did not see the topic, but I can imagine a situation where one likes to know is it A or B? Howeve,r the answer is C

On other forums I myself have been in a situation where I was certain the fish was a C, and I advised not to breed it, for reasons specified. I think in that case I was quite close to the posting Marc did which offended you so much.

You will not be surprized - if I'm still making sense, that is, if Marc's posting was as I am assuming, that I think such a posting is a good one. After all, he intended to help you: IDing the fish, and suggesting what to do with it - even with reasons why.

As stated above, a forum can deal with many matters which were not asked. Imagine someone inquiring after the ID of a fish, which is suffering from a disease. Should the one who recognizes this not speak up? Chanses are the fish is now in quarantaine - for a while. Knowing it has te be treated will prevent the owner from spreading the disease to his other fishes.

No, I think a hgood forum deals with much more than just the questions asked - even if these issues might be a bit painfull for the original poster

[Jools]

Just a note to say I am following this with interest - looks like a useful discussion to have out in the open. I might add that if something in a post bothers you, quote it and respond - all posters can edit or delete their own posts, but they can't edit something once you've quoted it.

This is especially true if sending me a PM complaining about something that I then go and check and is no longer there. You can quote posts in PMs easily using the PM button to the right of the post in question.

It should also be noted that Marc left the moderating team along with about 70% of the rest of the team in a re-shuffle of my instigation. I note, slightly embarrassed, that I've not yet created the experts group to which that move was linked.

A change in topic might help too as this doesn't appear to have much to do with aquabid.

Jools

[Yann]

Gentlmen:

As Kruseman said I think it would be nice if all look into the mirror and see how they could have answer in a different and polite way.

I am sure Marc intention on his very first replied wasn't to hurt you but to make it in a funny way...
But each one has its own perception as we can see...
Still the only things that has happened is a symetric escalation which ends in 2 monologues of person unable to communicate anymore.

Vinman: yes in a forum, people will give you their opinion...as it is just an opinion you can follow it or ignore it. You may like or dislike the way it is said...you can quote it, pm the person or give arguments to support or defend your opinion.

Marc: Yes you have been a mod and your knowledgeable regarding catfish, but even if you are probably right on certains issues, you also have to accept people won't follow your judgement...even if it is accruate. Stepping down as a mod, doesn't mean you can lash out at people which you couldn't do before. (that is how I percieved your post on first hand on this topic).

All:_So yes Opinion can be given but discussion can be made in a polite and gentle way without going borderline on each answer. Like writing in CAPS is not allow because assimilating as shouting. We love when people can give arguements to support an opinion than just simply saying yes or no or do this or don't do that...if this is too much to ask then I agree...what is the point of answering...

Changing people view on a topic is our right but it is also their right not to follow it...it can be demotivating, making us mad...

Ok I just hope things will go in a much more postive and polite way...and nobody wants to read who started first who said what etc...

Keep it cool Gentlemen

Cheers
Yann

[vinman]

You will not be surprized - if I'm still making sense, that is, if Marc's posting was as I am assuming, that I think such a posting is a good one. After all, he intended to help you: IDing the fish, and suggesting what to do with it - even with reasons why.

I found the thread and it was not Marc but Sidguppy who made the negitive comments. I don't know why he blamed himself. I posted the link to that thread below. I dont know what thread it was where me and Marc had words. I think that thread got deleted. I do remember Me and Marc having words though. He was backing up Sidguppy and I was telling him off and part of that the comment that I said ( him and his boyfriend Sidguppy ). All I know is we had words. Dude get over it,it was only trash talk in a piss war. I can not belive your holding a gruge over such stupidity.

Yann, As I said before my post with the words that was in all caps I was not being sarcastic in my first reply to Marc. I tried to lighten it up and made a joke out of it. I even put 3 of the laughing faces anfet my comment.

I offering a olive branch to you Marc. Can we please put the past behind us and lets take it from this day forward. Lets make a fresh start and put the water under the bridge. Can you agree to that.

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 80#p246180

[Jools]

( him and his boyfriend Sidguppy )

I appreciate the olive branch, but for the record, what you actually said was a lot worse. I have it saved elsewhere and it is available to the current mods although I see no benefit in repeating it here. Surprisingly, a warning on the issue wasn't issued at the time. In my view, if you are going to attack people using such terms then you cannot expect them to make light of it when you want to make light of it. They may make light of it, they may not - as an eternal optimistic, I hope this can be the end of it.

On a broader-than-this-thread note. I'd say the following about threads that touch on highly contentious topics (e.g. catfish bred for long finnage - which, culturally within this forum, is broadly seen as bad taste) then the OP is likely to get robust comment. Such comment is not off topic and it is not harrasement if appertaining to the fish/issue in the post. There is a fine line when it becomes trolling, but this is judged on merit each time. A hard part of the mods job and is roughly that the reply to a contentious topic is within a similar magnitude of the OPs thread. Mods are around to police comment to make sure it doesn't get personal and is suitable for all ages of visitors to the site.



Jools

[Viktor Jarikov]

Vinman, great to see your willingness to make friends again. Honestly.

1. I've followed these two threads.
2. I remember the thread on a hybrid syno ID I was trying to moderate between you and Sidguppy before: http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... it=+vinman
3. I've just read very carefully the thread you linked on BN pleco.

IMO and my opinion alone, your take on how forum works is plain wrong, just as many members and mods and even Jools told you before. Your attention to what and how others say is superb but to your own words is absent. You don't practice what you preach either. I know you don't have to care one bit about my opinion but I am afraid your demeanor will get you banned much sooner than later, much like SidGuppy, despite being a TRULY PROMINENT & RESPECTED AS AN EXPERT, was banned. No one wins when that happens.

When "unpleasanties" like these happen over and over and over to me much, much more often than to others, it should not be hard to add 2 and 2 together and understand that likely it is me that needs a change, not the world around me.

I have had my share of painful run-ins with SidGuppy.

Now that Sidguppy is gone you saw/see lots of deficiencies in Marc, some of which many, me included, vocalized and agreed upon. No one is perfect. True. But you have Marc beat in these "imperfections" hundred-fold and refuse to see it.

[Yann]

Hi!!

Once again like I said, everyone is free to express his opinion in a polite way, but in the same way, everyone can disagree with it in a polite way as well.

Vinman: I agree with Jools and what you said was far worst...actually you got away with it...and you must feel pretty lucky...you'll not if you keep going on in that direction.

I understand your sensibility makes you perceived things a little bit harder than they actually are, but you could simply clarified with the person through PM or report it to the mod if you feel the answer wasn't appropriate.

Putting oil on fire hasn't been usefull to trying to make things cooling down.

Again there is a mod team, if anyone feels something has to be moderate, we surely appreciate your help and the best way to do it is simply to report it!!

Cheers
Yann

[Scleropages]

It may be an option to disappear completely – like MatsP and Sidguppy.

For Sidguppy, it wasn't his option. He was banned for repetitively and inappropriately attacking and deriding other forum members. I don't recall Marc ever acting in such an inflammatory way.

It should also be noted that Marc left the moderating team along with about 70% of the rest of the team in a re-shuffle of my instigation.

Not to drag this OT, but is this why I haven't seen Birger and MatsP around lately as well? I don't recall seeing either of them post for quite some time and I miss their contributions.

[Silurus]

Not to drag this OT, but is this why I haven't seen Birger and MatsP around lately as well? I don't recall seeing either of them post for quite some time and I miss their contributions.

Birger is still a moderator, and he last posted over 24 hours ago. MatsP has left the forum entirely...I was under the impression that Jools was going to make some kind of announcement about that.

[vinman]

Viktor I listen to comments about my demeanor. I take all comments into consideration. You words have not fallen on deaf ears. I have to admit I too not only Marc thought that we had words on the Pleco ID thread. Bottom line is I can say I'm a bit defencive but it is not like I go looking for it. I can be harsh at times. Now that sidguppy is gone and maybe in time Marc can let this go hopefuly there will be no more problems.

Marc My appoliges if that remark I made to you truly hurt your feelings but belive me it was just trash talk in the heat of the moment. Please blow it off and get pass it. I dont even remember what thread it was nor do I remember the whole comment. By saving it you just re live the hurt. In order to heal you should delet out of you records. If you like to send it to the admin or mods for the recored thats one thing. I can't see you getting passed it you re live it from time to time. Again sorry if it put this much mental stress on you. It was just trash talk bro. Please take it with a grain of salt and move on.

[racoll]

I'd say the following about threads that touch on highly contentious topics (e.g. catfish bred for long finnage - which, culturally within this forum, is broadly seen as bad taste) then the OP is likely to get robust comment. Such comment is not off topic and it is not harrasement if appertaining to the fish/issue in the post. There is a fine line when it becomes trolling, but this is judged on merit each time.

Jools, is it really to be expected that newcomers to the forum are subjected to these kind of "robust comments", just for asking entirely reasonable questions about their fish?

It's hardly suprising that when people's hobbies are effectively derided in this way, that they'll either fight (like vinman) or flight (leave the forum)?

I tend to work under the very wise assumption that "if you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all". If I do have to make a negative comment, I try to make it in third person, so not to appear as being directly derogatory to a person's hobby.

[exasperatus2002]

Marc, I have completely missed all the posting you are referring to...

All I would say is that I very much enjoy your contribution to PC, particularly on woodcats. Please stay.

- Richard

+1 Every forum from time to time has some B.S. that shouldnt have been posted. Think of it like a paper cut. It's annoying and at first painful, but it goes away.

[vinman]

I'd say the following about threads that touch on highly contentious topics (e.g. catfish bred for long finnage - which, culturally within this forum, is broadly seen as bad taste) then the OP is likely to get robust comment. Such comment is not off topic and it is not harrasement if appertaining to the fish/issue in the post. There is a fine line when it becomes trolling, but this is judged on merit each time.

Jools, is it really to be expected that newcomers to the forum are subjected to these kind of "robust comments", just for asking entirely reasonable questions about their fish?

It's hardly suprising that when people's hobbies are effectively derided in this way, that they'll either fight (like vinman) or flight (leave the forum)?

I tend to work under the very wise assumption that "if you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all". If I do have to make a negative comment, I try to make it in third person, so not to appear as being directly derogatory to a person's hobby.

Thank you racoll. I'm glad someone sees my point of view. For me it was both. First I fought and then I left here just came back to post when I could not get a answer from anywhere else or I was looking for a BNP morph. This was the first time I came back to give it a second try . I offered some info in the thread this thread split from and look at all the drama.

For the recored I know your the owner Jools but sorry a person lookin to ID a morph should not be subject to negitive comments because someone does not like the fish weather the OP are a necommer or a old timer to the forum. That is off topic and totally rude behavor. Not trying to start a fight with you. I'm just stating facts. That is not proper conduct and is only going to end up with negitive results as Racoll stated and I have experienced. This is a catfish forum. BNP morphs are part of the catfish hobby weather you like them or not and from what I seen are a jump start spices into the wonderful world of pleco keeping. I for one have refrained from posting my experiences on working with them here for fear of ridicule. I see lots of your members keep BNP morphs as I see them for sale and wanted in the classified sec. Off topic negitive comments are bad for any forum and I hope to see a end of it here.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Maybe it was not obvious from my words above and I am sorry about that, Vinman and all. Surely SidGuppy carries his blame; this never was a question in my mind.

In a nutshell, I'd say, yes, Sidguppy's attacks and aggression fouled this forum but your fighting back and attacking in return fouls this forum just as much. This wisdom is as old as time: you cannot beat insult with an insult. Or using your own words that you repeated several times recently: two wrongs don't make it right. That's first and foremost what I mean when I said you don't practice what you preach. (Neither do I though... but I appreciate when this is clarified for me).

I do apologise if I appear too hard on you. My only intent is to help. My ways are awkward... obviously.

[Bas Pels]

It's hardly suprising that when people's hobbies are effectively derided in this way, that they'll either fight (like vinman) or flight (leave the forum)?

I tend to work under the very wise assumption that "if you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all". If I do have to make a negative comment, I try to make it in third person, so not to appear as being directly derogatory to a person's hobby.

I have to post a dissenting opinion here

This forum frowns on hybrids, long finned morphs and so on. Personally, I firmly agree with thet. If that was not the case, I would not even come here.

There are people keeping fish who do not know why they sould not keep these fishes. We should school them. Then there are others who like to make maney from these sad creatures, and those people are not sharing my hobby

If they leave this forum, I consider that as a reason to rejoyce.

Still, I don't own this forum, so in practice, I try to give my opinions polite. To put som sugor on the pill, but I will not remouve the bitter inside.

On a more personal note, I consider the person Sidguppy as a friend, and as he is no longer welcome on this forum (because he was provoced too much) he can not defend himself

Therefore, please do not smear him anymore. I would consider that as beyond rude.

[vinman]

Maybe it was not obvious from my words above and I am sorry about that, Vinman and all. Surely SidGuppy carries his blame; this never was a question in my mind.

In a nutshell, I'd say, yes, Sidguppy's attacks and aggression fouled this forum but your fighting back and attacking in return fouls this forum just as much. This wisdom is as old as time: you cannot beat insult with an insult.

Yes Viktor I totally agree but you have to realize it is human nature when attacked to fight back. It is hard to bite your tounge when people like sidguppy start trouble. Maybe I'm wrong but I put 99% blame on the person that starts the trouble. Most people that dont comment back tend to have a low self esteem and are spineless door mats. It is hard wired in our brains to defend yourself when attacked and also told to us by our parents and scoicity to stick up for yourself and don't let people push you around. Its called self preservation. So I put the blame on the person that starts the trouble not the person that comments back. People like Sidguppy know the reaction they are goimng to get and feed off it. It is a shame that a person with that much fish knowledge had to be such trouble maker. I know that I'm a very nice person & very kind to people always first to say I'm sorry but on the other hand I'm no pushover. Bleve me when I say I could have went balls to the wall in the orginal thread this split from but I did not. I keept my cool, I did have some words with Marc but was not over the top as I have done with people before on forums. On the other hand it was Marc that went a little over board on that thread not me. To his defence he was also carring some animosity over some petty comment from a year ago. Over the last year I'm doing my best to not get vicious when having words with someone and watch the way I word my post when having a disagreement with someone. I'm also doing my best not to start a fight with anyone as I don't need the drama.