?Gold Nugget Pleco: Carnivore, Herbivore, or Omnivore?

[antec]

[Note: This thread can be potentially be for any pleco]
I’ve recently purchased a Gold Nugget Pleco (L018) Baryancistrus xanthellus, it is currently 2 ½” and living in a 40 gallon planted community tank. I’ve had it for about a month and is doing great. My stats are ammonia: 0ppm, nitrite: 0ppm, nitrate: 20 – 40ppm, pH: 7.0, I can’t remember the hardness but its medium hard. They live in the Rio Xingu so owners of sunshine plecs, zebra plecs. . . are greatly appreciated.

I’ve done about a year of research on these guys and was confident that I would be able to raise it. My question is what are they considered: carnivore, omnivore, or herbivore? Every article I’ve read said different things and I could not pin point exactly what they are and what (proper) foods I could be feeding it. So far I’ve made a concoction of fresh shrimp, pike, seaweed, carrots, lettuce, and vitamin and mineral supplements blended together into gelatin. This is what it is eating now.

When I think of the word “carnivore”, I’m thinking a predator or scavenger. Predators will chase or ambush their food and a scavenger will search for a dead animal. During my observations GNP are definitely not predators but they possibly be scavengers – but their digestive system suggests otherwise, almost like a grazer eating very small amounts of food on a content basis (correct me if I’m wrong about the relation of the digestive system being one of a grazer). So unless the Rio Xingu substrate is littered with dead and rotting animals, I doubt the GNP is a scavenger. Please note: my LFS said they were strictly carnivores

An omnivore seems the best plausible answer so far. The only thing I’ve found is that even with predatory fish, I’ve seen them eat vegetation. I’ve seen a piranha eat a piece of lettuce on a clip. Mind you, the lettuce was not intended for that but for other fish – they [piranhas] just came around and nibbled (and yes, they are properly fed). My GNP will eat my concoction, algae wafers, shrimp pellets, flaked food – the works. My concern is, is it an omnivore that will thrive with this type of diet, or is it eating it in desperation?

Another option is a herbivore. I’ve watched numerous videos on YouTube and read in some articles about them mowing down zucchini, lettuce, red peppers etc… about the herbivore factor, my question is: are they feeding these things as a regular part of their diet, or simply a treat here and there? Are they eating this because they are deprived? What do you think?

What do you feed your Rio Xingu Pleco? What does your pleco diet consist of? When do you feed them and how many times? Does anyone own a mature Gold Nugget Pleco?
Thank you for taking your time to read about my concerns.

Please Leave a Post 

[MrRRunner]

Had my L018 GNP for about 4.5 years and I would say it's omnivore, It loves Courgette/Zucchini, sweet potato, butternut squash, etc,
I've also seen it scraping on prawn but it is mostly out at night and lights off so I've never really studied it.

[Narwhal72]

I have been keeping four of them since July of last year. My goal is to grow them up to try and spawn them. I purchased them at about 2-2.5" SL and are now about 3.5-4" SL.

Right now I feed them mainly sliced cucumber, sweet potato, and shrimp pellets and they are doing well. There is also plenty of wood in the tank for them to graze on. I know they are eating the wood as I can see the rough edges I drilled into logs as caves have become smoothed out and widened as they were consumed. I would point out that my Panaque nigrolineatus in another tank eat the wood 10X faster though.

My vote is that they are omnivores that feed primarily on vegetation as juveniles and then transfer to a more carnivorous diet as they mature. I base this on the animal protein diet listed in the spawning thread on this forum and the gut length measurements in scientific literature. I haven't seen any gut content analysis of adult and juvenile fish which would be the real piece of evidence necessary to draw a better conclusion.

Also I would be remiss if I didn't inform you that a 40 gallon tank is fine for a juvenile but is a pretty small tank for an adult who could be as big as 18" standard length.

Andy

[Jools]

Have you read the Shane's World article on them? That should answer your question.

Jools

[MatsP]

I personally don't like "polls" as a method of determining facts. It's a good way to determine what people like better as a holiday destination or which political party people will vote for. But those are subjective things - we can choose, and not a single one is "right" or "wrong". In the case of the diet of fish, there is a "right" and a "wrong" answer, and just because 10 people vote for the "wrong" answer, and only 6 vote for the "right" answer doesn't make the "wrong" answer any more right. Sadly, google and searching the internet is a little bit that way too - you find 10 wrong answers and 6 right ones, doesn't mean than the 10 wrong ones are any less wrong. It is probably a better idea to ask peoples opinion and then ask them WHY they think it is that way (this also applies to recommending holiday destinations, stops you from going to Ibiza when you are looking for a quiet place in nature).

I'm also slightly confused by your comment

They live in the Rio Xingu so owners of sunshine plecs, zebra plecs. . are greatly appreciated.

. Just because they happen to live in the same river doesn't mean everything else about the fish is the same. One of the reasons there are many different types of plecos is that they live in different parts of rivers, and feed on different things.

I'm absolutely convinced that the MAIN natural diet of these fish is algae, so it would be called a "herbivore" in my vocabulary. Since we can't plausibly replicate a shallow, fast-flowing part of the Rio Xingu at home, with strong sunshine growing algae like it's going out of fashion, we have to substitute algae for something else. Courgette (zucchini) and other plant matter is the right food for this type of fish. Yes, they will eat other things too (some of which with preference to the algae). Most fish, like humans, will eat what is tasty, which isn't necessarily what is right for them - we know that eating sweet, fatty things aren't good for us. Unfortunately, fish don't always know what's right for them, and they will happily chew up a large amount of "meaty" food, which then sits in the long gut causing problems. This is a potential problem to humans, and it's definitely a problem for certain types of plecos.

Our care page

Baryancistrus xanthellus

is possibly also confusing, as I don't think it should emphasize "meaty" food as much as it does, and I have submitted a change for that. We do however also point to this excellent article by Ingo Seidel:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworl ... cle_id=382 (as Jools points out).

We can also look at the scientific notes on the species, such as in the original description of this species:

The diet of three examined specimens of B. xanthellus was composed mainly of algae, especially diatoms and loose filaments of clorophyceans such as Spirogyra, which are commonly found associated with fine sediments and sand grains in the long intestines of loricariids (intestinal length up to 16 times the body length; Zuanon, 1999). Occasional bryozoans and chironomid larvae were also found. Underwater observations indicate that the food is scraped from the surface of submerged rocks by gently combing the periphyton cover with the numerous and tightly spaced teeth

I also looked at the descriptions of a couple of other Baryancistrus species, and they say similar things "Mainly algae".


--
Mats

[antec]

Right now I feed them mainly sliced cucumber, sweet potato, and shrimp pellets and they are doing well. There is also plenty of wood in the tank for them to graze on. I know they are eating the wood as I can see the rough edges I drilled into logs as caves have become smoothed out and widened as they were consumed. I would point out that my Panaque nigrolineatus in another tank eat the wood 10X faster though.

I have lots of driftwood in the tank and I haven't observed it eating the driftwood itself. it seems to me that the GNP is scraping the groves throughout the wood, which in turn wears away at the wood - but I don't think it eats wood as the panaque does. I did a lot of research on aufwuch and attempted to mimic its contents. I would place about 5 pieces of driftwood and marinate it within the cocktail for about a week. I alternate them every week. my GNP is a juvi so I'm going to try your strategic diet of vegetable matter first and then move to a protein diet as it matures. I'm also trying to grow the pleco out and breed them.

My vote is that they are omnivores that feed primarily on vegetation as juveniles and then transfer to a more carnivorous diet as they mature. I base this on the animal protein diet listed in the spawning thread on this forum and the gut length measurements in scientific literature. I haven't seen any gut content analysis of adult and juvenile fish which would be the real piece of evidence necessary to draw a better conclusion.

I agree! an analysis of its gut content would be definitive and would be very interesting!

Also I would be remiss if I didn't inform you that a 40 gallon tank is fine for a juvenile but is a pretty small tank for an adult who could be as big as 18" standard length.

The 40 gallon is not its permanent home. I'm in the process of building a high tech 150 gallon acrylic aquarium, lightly planted, and a biotope based more like Amazonian ecology. the tank will be done in a year to a year and half. (I'll be recording my progress and posting it on tank journals in about 6 months)

[antec]

I personally don't like "polls" as a method of determining facts. It's a good way to determine what people like better as a holiday destination or which political party people will vote for. But those are subjective things - we can choose, and not a single one is "right" or "wrong". In the case of the diet of fish, there is a "right" and a "wrong" answer, and just because 10 people vote for the "wrong" answer, and only 6 vote for the "right" answer doesn't make the "wrong" answer any more right. Sadly, google and searching the internet is a little bit that way too - you find 10 wrong answers and 6 right ones, doesn't mean than the 10 wrong ones are any less wrong. It is probably a better idea to ask peoples opinion and then ask them WHY they think it is that way (this also applies to recommending holiday destinations, stops you from going to Ibiza when you are looking for a quiet place in nature).

I'm sorry that you don't like polls but its not a tool that I'm using to ultimately determine their diets. it's more of tracking the opinions of pleco owners. your right, there is no right or wrong answers in my poll. and the thread is being used so that the participants are able to provide a reason to their choices.

I'm also slightly confused by your comment

They live in the Rio Xingu so owners of sunshine plecs, zebra plecs. . are greatly appreciated.

. Just because they happen to live in the same river doesn't mean everything else about the fish is the same. One of the reasons there are many different types of plecos is that they live in different parts of rivers, and feed on different things.)

If I was not clear, I apologize. I do realize that the fish are not the same but I would like information from owners of fish that live in close proximity, I can sift through the information and maybe observe some kind of pattern that I would otherwise miss - is this ok with you? I would only like information from loricariidae family because as you know: sunshine, zebra, and GNP are from the same family.

I'm absolutely convinced that the MAIN natural diet of these fish is algae, so it would be called a "herbivore" in my vocabulary.

Well in your vocabulary I would have to disagree with you. algae are not considered plants. they do perform photosynthesis but other characteristics would contradict placing them in the flora kingdom. the majority would most likely be referred to as protists in the Protista kingdom. other algae(blue green), along with some bacteria, are in another kingdom referred to as Monera due to their cellular biology. I've been in school for a very long time, biology major.

Since we can't plausibly replicate a shallow, fast-flowing part of the Rio Xingu at home, with strong sunshine growing algae like it's going out of fashion...

I would disagree. exact replicate - no. simulate chemistry, physiological properties, among a huge list - absolutely.

we know that eating sweet, fatty things aren't good for us. Unfortunately, fish don't always know what's right for them, and they will happily chew up a large amount of "meaty" food, which then sits in the long gut causing problems. This is a potential problem to humans, and it's definitely a problem for certain types of plecos.

I completely agree with you, junk food will corrupt our health but we eat it for the great taste. this must be similar in the fauna kingdom. this is where I would like to differentiate what is considered bad for their health and what is good.

I see you have also quoted literature on the loricariids family with respect to what is found in their GI system. but is not definitive to what I would like to accomplish here. as you stated previously, "...doesn't mean everything else about the fish is the same. One of the reasons there are many different types of plecos is that they live in different parts of rivers, and feed on different things" - not all loricariids are from the same biotope. there if not enough information on Baryancistrus Xanthellus to be 100% certain their diet consist of "mainly algae|" but I greatly appreciate your input on the matter.

[MatsP]

I personally don't like "polls" as a method of determining facts. It's a good way to determine what people like better as a holiday destination or which political party people will vote for. But those are subjective things - we can choose, and not a single one is "right" or "wrong". In the case of the diet of fish, there is a "right" and a "wrong" answer, and just because 10 people vote for the "wrong" answer, and only 6 vote for the "right" answer doesn't make the "wrong" answer any more right. Sadly, google and searching the internet is a little bit that way too - you find 10 wrong answers and 6 right ones, doesn't mean than the 10 wrong ones are any less wrong. It is probably a better idea to ask peoples opinion and then ask them WHY they think it is that way (this also applies to recommending holiday destinations, stops you from going to Ibiza when you are looking for a quiet place in nature).

I'm sorry that you don't like polls but its not a tool that I'm using to ultimately determine their diets. it's more of tracking the opinions of pleco owners. your right, there is no right or wrong answers in my poll. and the thread is being used so that the participants are able to provide a reason to their choices.

And what are you going to do when there are 26 different people voted and only 8 have actually given some motivation?

I'm also slightly confused by your comment

They live in the Rio Xingu so owners of sunshine plecs, zebra plecs. . are greatly appreciated.

. Just because they happen to live in the same river doesn't mean everything else about the fish is the same. One of the reasons there are many different types of plecos is that they live in different parts of rivers, and feed on different things.)

If I was not clear, I apologize. I do realize that the fish are not the same but I would like information from owners of fish that live in close proximity, I can sift through the information and maybe observe some kind of pattern that I would otherwise miss - is this ok with you? I would only like information from loricariidae family because as you know: sunshine, zebra, and GNP are from the same family.

As are

Otocinclus affinis

and

Farlowella vittata

. The point I was trying to make is that just because they look the same in overall body shape, and live in the same river, doesn't mean that they eat the same thing. H. zebra lives at deep depth of the river, and gut analysis shows they are mainly feeding on "bivalves" - whole baby mussles and similar creatures, in other words. That's probably not what ANYONE here is feeding theirs, and certainly not what I will feed my Baryancistrus. The odd mussel from the freezer, yes.

I'm absolutely convinced that the MAIN natural diet of these fish is algae, so it would be called a "herbivore" in my vocabulary.

Well in your vocabulary I would have to disagree with you. algae are not considered plants. they do perform photosynthesis but other characteristics would contradict placing them in the flora kingdom. the majority would most likely be referred to as protists in the Protista kingdom. other algae(blue green), along with some bacteria, are in another kingdom referred to as Monera due to their cellular biology. I've been in school for a very long time, biology major.

Yes, if we are going to split it into finer groups, I agree. But you didn't list that as an option, and I haven't heard anyone actually split algae-feeders from "herbivores" ever before. [And if it comes to education alone, you win - but then if you already know everything you need to know, why are you asking questions].

Since we can't plausibly replicate a shallow, fast-flowing part of the Rio Xingu at home, with strong sunshine growing algae like it's going out of fashion...

I would disagree. exact replicate - no. simulate chemistry, physiological properties, among a huge list - absolutely.

My point was rather that we can't get enough algae growth in an aquarium to sustain the right kind of food. So we have to come up with food that is as close as possible - or set up a giant, shallow tank somewhere with plenty of light and lots of cobbles to grow algae. Most importantly, the sunshine isn't there [well, not here in England, and I doubt Canada is that much further south to make a huge difference, even if it is further south than 55'N), so you have to use artificial lighting.

we know that eating sweet, fatty things aren't good for us. Unfortunately, fish don't always know what's right for them, and they will happily chew up a large amount of "meaty" food, which then sits in the long gut causing problems. This is a potential problem to humans, and it's definitely a problem for certain types of plecos.

I completely agree with you, junk food will corrupt our health but we eat it for the great taste. this must be similar in the fauna kingdom. this is where I would like to differentiate what is considered bad for their health and what is good.

I see you have also quoted literature on the loricariids family with respect to what is found in their GI system. but is not definitive to what I would like to accomplish here. as you stated previously, "...doesn't mean everything else about the fish is the same. One of the reasons there are many different types of plecos is that they live in different parts of rivers, and feed on different things" - not all loricariids are from the same biotope. there if not enough information on Baryancistrus Xanthellus to be 100% certain their diet consist of "mainly algae|" but I greatly appreciate your input on the matter.[/quote]

Here I disagree. If we combine the evidence, it's pretty conclusive. They have long guts, they are found in shallow water with lots of algae-growth, other Baryancistrus (e.g. B. demantoides) are found with almost identical gut content. I have not found any evidence [yes, there are web-sites and books saying otherwise, but not EVIDENCE in the form of reviewed papers or data from nature].

I'm sure someone will tell me that I'm wrong. But I'd like to see some better evidence than another website says so.

--
Mats

[Suckermouth]

I'll just add that what's been found from stable isotope analysis is that Baryancistrus likely have similar nitrogen- and carbon-isotope ratios as Ancistrus, Chaetostoma, Lasiancistrus, and Dekeyseria, suggesting more or less algivory, perhaps with a little nitrogen-enrichment in detritus or a little omnivory.

[antec]

if you already know everything you need to know, why are you asking questions

I'm versed in biology but I would not go as far as to say I know everything. That is the reason why I would like to get more information based on experimentation and experiences from members with substances that most closely relate to their natural diet, however small the contribution, it would be much appreciated.

Here are some interesting published scientific papers on the matter that you may like of their genome/nucleotide and protein sequencing among others, the last few links are papers that are not published just yet.

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script= ... 1000200001
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/ni/v9n2/a01v9n2.pdf
http://diszhal.info/english/catfishes/e ... us_L18.php
http://www.itis.gov/servlet/SingleRpt/S ... lue=679411
http://www.int-res.com/abstracts/dao/v45/n2/p153-154/
http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao/45/d045p153.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3497581/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/protein/49409580
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/nuccore/49409579

Hey Suckermouth, do you know where I could access that article that suggests their algivorous characteristic? I'm trying to find a written hematology analysis or at the very least an analysis of the gastro intestinal tract; its anatomy and physiology, intestinal villi description. . . it doesn't have to be baryancistrus xanthellus exactly but a loricariidae in similar regions.

[Suckermouth]

You appear to have already posted a link to the paper I was referencing, but you can get it direct from the source here: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/12/124

As mentioned in the paper, gut content analysis can be difficult in loricariid catfishes.

[MatsP]

if you already know everything you need to know, why are you asking questions

I'm versed in biology but I would not go as far as to say I know everything. That is the reason why I would like to get more information based on experimentation and experiences from members with substances that most closely relate to their natural diet, however small the contribution, it would be much appreciated.

Here are some interesting published scientific papers on the matter that you may like of their genome/nucleotide and protein sequencing among others, the last few links are papers that are not published just yet.

I'm not well versed enough in genomics to interpret what the fish feeds from by a sequence of ACTG text. Perhaps Suckermouth can help here. But my guess is that this is not something you can just read out of the genome.

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script= ... 1000200001
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/ni/v9n2/a01v9n2.pdf

Both the same document (one is the HTML, the other PDF version). Says that it's "algivore" (You may want to edit your poll so that it covers "algivore", and I'll edit my vote to that, if you prefter to distinguish - however, I still won't feed mine purely with algae, since I have no feasible way to produce algae). And what I updated the B. xanthellus to point at (not sure why I didn't do that during my marathon data update in January-February, but again, I have to apologize for my failings).

http://diszhal.info/english/catfishes/e ... us_L18.php

Says pretty much the same as Planet Catfish does.

http://www.itis.gov/servlet/SingleRpt/S ... lue=679411

Doesn't say anything meaningful on diet - not sure why it's here.

http://www.int-res.com/abstracts/dao/v45/n2/p153-154/
http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao/45/d045p153.pdf

Not sure what the purpose of this is? It's a little beyond my understanding of technical biological text. Can you explain what is says with regards to the subject here. I understand that they examined the liver. But how does it relate to the diet?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3497581/

This is the paper Suckermouth is referring to in the above post. It says that Ancistrus and Baryancistrus and several other genera feeds mostly on algae and vegetable matter, where for example Leporacanthicus and Pseudacanthicus feed on "insect larvae" and similar. It uses more complicated words to describe it (no surprise there, Nathan Lujan is one of the authors ;) ), but that's what I read from it. Somewhere, I have a copy of Nathan's PhD dissertation, which uses analysis of the body (primarily teeth shape, jaw bones and related musculature) to try to "predict" what fish feeds on. I believe much of that information is also replicated in the above paper.

I have also looked at the paper for

Baryancistrus demantoides

, as I mentioned.
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script= ... 5000400011
[The link in the Cat-eLog page is broken, I've just submitted an update that fixes that - I'm pretty sure I was the one who submitted the broken link, sorry about that]

I still see nothing do indicate that "Main diet is algae in nature, and vegetables are a good substitute in the aquarium" is wrong. Yes, I'm sure there are several other websites that says something else. But that's not terribly reliable.

--
Mats

[Suckermouth]

if you already know everything you need to know, why are you asking questions

I'm versed in biology but I would not go as far as to say I know everything. That is the reason why I would like to get more information based on experimentation and experiences from members with substances that most closely relate to their natural diet, however small the contribution, it would be much appreciated.

Here are some interesting published scientific papers on the matter that you may like of their genome/nucleotide and protein sequencing among others, the last few links are papers that are not published just yet.

I'm not well versed enough in genomics to interpret what the fish feeds from by a sequence of ACTG text. Perhaps Suckermouth can help here. But my guess is that this is not something you can just read out of the genome.

You are correct, you cannot infer the diet of a fish directly from sequences of the RAG gene. I don't think that was his point in posting the sequences, though.

[antec]

Yes MatP, I put two links of the same article. One being abstract and the other full literature. The Karyomegaly in Baryancistrus from Amazonian Brazil describes metabolic analysis of fish liver; profile and serum after varied diets and environment. I’m guessing you haven’t had the time to read the articles since you had to ask how it relates to fish diet. Genetics will not identify specific nutritional habits but can reveal metabolic and physical characteristics on how the specimen converts food into energy – you can see why carnivores are carnivores through genomics. One link is not an articles but a list of species that have been reviewed and I'm sorry you couldn’t appreciate that. There is a section in one of the articles that discusses dentition which is very interesting.

Why would I put algivore as an option? If I had the option to list most of the vorare, I would, but I figured I'd go a little general to make it easier on forum members. like you said, it is highly unlikely that someone would be feeding their Baryancistrus strictly algae. my query, to clarify for you, is to ask for experiences from other members on their plecos diet.

I believe you’re getting off topic here. we're not trying to determine that the "Main diet is algae in nature, and vegetables are a good substitute in the aquarium", I’m asking for experiences from other members that have tested meat and or vegetation with any preference on one.

[racoll]

In the wild, Baryancistrus eat almost entirely algae (as part of the biofilm*). I'm not sure why there is any doubt about all this? This is well known to both hobbyists and scientists. Ingo's article on the subject has been up on this site since 2008, and explains it nicely (this is the link @Jools was referring to).

They actually sift and chew at the film of organic matter on hard surfaces in search of higher protein foods.

Although not wrong, perhaps this wording in the cat-elog is slightly misleading. I don't think there's any evidence that they "search" for higher protein food. Rather, I think they just ingest huge amounts of algae/biofilm, and this provides them with the nutrition they need.

As MatsP keeps saying, you can't physically provide enough algae in the home aquarium, so you have to feed veg. Most people who keep this species also feed some "meatier" foods too, and it seems to do them no harm provided it's in moderation, and that veg is offered at the same time.

*biofilm is the English word for aufwuchs.

[racoll]

we're not trying to determine that the "Main diet is algae in nature, and vegetables are a good substitute in the aquarium", I’m asking for experiences from other members that have tested meat and or vegetation with any preference on one.

That's not really how the initial post or the poll reads to me.

[antec]

we're not trying to determine that the "Main diet is algae in nature, and vegetables are a good substitute in the aquarium", I’m asking for experiences from other members that have tested meat and or vegetation with any preference on one.

That's not really how the initial post or the poll reads to me.

Where am I saying this otherwise? could you quote my initial statement that suggests that I'm trying to provide enough algae in a home aquarium?



Suckermouth:about genomics, dietary chemicals have been shown to alter gene expression, so they have the potential to be metabolized through primary or secondary pathways and altering concentrations of essential nutritional factors in tissues such as osseous or musculature. Exogenous nutrients can affect gene expression, right… so you could identify by that. what do you think?

[racoll]

Where am I saying this otherwise?

Well, for a start, if I simply wanted to know what other fishkeepers were feeding their gold nugget plecos, I would have entitled the thread something like "What are you feeding your gold nuggets?" If you want a specific answer, you need to ask a specific question.

about genomics, dietary chemicals have been shown to alter gene expression, so they have the potential to be metabolized through primary or secondary pathways and altering concentrations of essential nutritional factors in tissues such as osseous or musculature. Exogenous nutrients can affect gene expression, right

Sure, genes and diet are linked, but this has nothing to do with a single RAG1 sequence. RAG1 codes for rearrangement and recombination of immunity genes. It has nothing to do with diet. It's just is a convenient gene used to infer phylogenetic relationships.

[antec]

[Well, for a start, if I simply wanted to know what other fishkeepers were feeding their gold nugget plecos, I would have entitled the thread something like "What are you feeding your gold nuggets?" If you want a specific answer, you need to ask a specific question.

this is a forum right? somewhere I could get a conversation going? I don't want to just know what your feeding your gold nuggets, I want to know why, what's your routine, time of day, any specific means to how and why your feeding as you are. . .

no? can't do that? forum rules?

[Sure, genes and diet are linked, but this has nothing to do with a single RAG1 sequence. RAG1 codes for rearrangement and recombination of immunity genes. It has nothing to do with diet. It's just is a convenient gene used to infer phylogenetic relationships.

I'm not referring to the article, just a thought to stimulate conversation.

[Suckermouth]

Suckermouth:about genomics, dietary chemicals have been shown to alter gene expression, so they have the potential to be metabolized through primary or secondary pathways and altering concentrations of essential nutritional factors in tissues such as osseous or musculature. Exogenous nutrients can affect gene expression, right… so you could identify by that. what do you think?

It seems like it'd be possible, but I don't see why you would do it this way.

[TwoTankAmin]

By way of answering the original Q of the OP. I keep H. zebras, they spawns for me sometimes as well. I have them in 3 species tanks. The nature of my setup is there can be common pond snails anywhere in the system and especially in tanks where there are fry. Over the years I have notice that the zebra tanks have the fewest number of snails, I find them more often high up on the glass and I rarely find empty shells.

It is my belief the zebras eat the snails ( perhaps the shells). Moreover, I have noticed the same thing in tanks with other Hypancistrus. However, what I feed them I am sure bears no resemblance to what they eat in the wild.

[antec]

It seems like it'd be possible, but I don't see why you would do it this way.

Which way would you consider?

By way of answering the original Q of the OP. I keep H. zebras, they spawns for me sometimes as well. I have them in 3 species tanks. The nature of my setup is there can be common pond snails anywhere in the system and especially in tanks where there are fry. Over the years I have notice that the zebra tanks have the fewest number of snails, I find them more often high up on the glass and I rarely find empty shells.

It is my belief the zebras eat the snails ( perhaps the shells). Moreover, I have noticed the same thing in tanks with other Hypancistrus. However, what I feed them I am sure bears no resemblance to what they eat in the wild.

Thank You!

[Suckermouth]

It seems like it'd be possible, but I don't see why you would do it this way.

Which way would you consider?

Without direct observation or gut content analysis, that leaves us mostly with stable isotope analysis. Stable isotopes are a far more convenient proxy for diet than gene expression levels. I don't think we have enough understanding of loricariid genetics, and perhaps not enough understanding of gene expression under different dietary regimes (although I'm not a physiologist), to use gene expression to differentiate diet in loricariids.

[MatsP]

[Well, for a start, if I simply wanted to know what other fishkeepers were feeding their gold nugget plecos, I would have entitled the thread something like "What are you feeding your gold nuggets?" If you want a specific answer, you need to ask a specific question.

this is a forum right? somewhere I could get a conversation going? I don't want to just know what your feeding your gold nuggets, I want to know why, what's your routine, time of day, any specific means to how and why your feeding as you are. . .

Yet, you are confusing the matter by:
1. Asking people to "vote" for what they think is the best answer. This misleads to "simple answers", and in the future, some 5 years from now, someone will find that 73 people voted for Herbivore, 108 people voted for Omnivore, 17 voted "Don't know" and 16 voted "Carnivore". It's like "ask the audience" in the TV show Jeopardy - I don't follow it on a regular basis, but I've seen several cases where I know the answer, and 28% of the audience "votes" for the right answer. But obviously 72% of the audience voted for something else. Does that mean that "it's 28% correct", or that 28% happen to know the CORRECT answer?

I don't know, but do you actually believe that this question has multiple correct answers?

Polls for "what is the right answer" is not a good system.

2. You are asking what people feed their Rio Xingu fish. Gold nuggets come from Rio Xingu, but have more in common with B. demantoides than H. zebra. Plecos from the same river doesn't eat the same thing. Plecos eating the same type of thing often belong to the same genera, and are spread over a large area. So what someone is feeding H. zebra won't help you understand what you should feed your gold nugget pleco, any more than knowing the Lions eat Zebras, so therefore, Giraffes, from the same place, should be fed zebra meat... Yes, I know, Lions and Giraffes are not the same family. But family is not a good split for determining diet in plecos.

no? can't do that? forum rules?

You can do it. You just won't necessarily get the answer and/or discussion you want.

[Sure, genes and diet are linked, but this has nothing to do with a single RAG1 sequence. RAG1 codes for rearrangement and recombination of immunity genes. It has nothing to do with diet. It's just is a convenient gene used to infer phylogenetic relationships.

I'm not referring to the article, just a thought to stimulate conversation.

[/quote]

Yes, but it's reference is not useful for determining the diet.

--
Mats

[MatsP]

The Karyomegaly in Baryancistrus from Amazonian Brazil describes metabolic analysis of fish liver; profile and serum after varied diets and environment. I’m guessing you haven’t had the time to read the articles since you had to ask how it relates to fish diet.

Since I have absolutely no training in medicine (I didn't go to university at all, I left school and started doing computer programming), I didn't UNDERSTAND the article's consequences. It seems to talk about enlargements in the liver. And it says the fish are fed a paste of fishmeal, but also that the fish weren't feeding very much. But it doesn't, as far as I can read, say anything about "what these fish should be fed". If you can explain the medical terms that I don't understand, and how it explains that my "herbivore/algivore" is wrong, then please do so.

Why would I put algivore as an option? If I had the option to list most of the vorare, I would, but I figured I'd go a little general to make it easier on forum members. like you said, it is highly unlikely that someone would be feeding their Baryancistrus strictly algae. my query, to clarify for you, is to ask for experiences from other members on their plecos diet.

Because you complained about me defining it as a herbivore in "my vocabulary". Maybe you are just as pedantic as I can be at times, as my actual meaning was that "of the choices listed and commonly used to describe what fish eats" - whilst I may well have seen algivore as a term before, I don't think I've seen a hobbyist use it to described the diet of his/her fish.

I believe you’re getting off topic here. we're not trying to determine that the "Main diet is algae in nature, and vegetables are a good substitute in the aquarium", I’m asking for experiences from other members that have tested meat and or vegetation with any preference on one.

And if we find that these fish really prefer meaty food, but then dies within a couple of years, which is not an uncommon affair, what is the conclusion?

--
Mats

[antec]

I don’t think YOU understand what this thread is all about. You keep mentioning that you don’t like polls and are misleading – OK I understand where you’re coming from but you seem to refuse to understand where I’m coming from with this then repeating yourself like a broken record. My poll is to ask what the members believe and discuss why. Do you actually think I believe theirs multiple answers to this question? If so, then this argument you want here is done because I’m not reasoning with someone who will not make any progress in this matter.

I am asking what people feed their GNP – but I am also curious on what other fish of the same family and lives in the same area as the GNP. I realize zebras are not in the same genus and are known carnivores – but because of their close proximity, I would like to know what same families eat. I could potentially see a pattern, if there’s none, then great! As far as both of us, I believe that’s the main difference, I would like to dabble into information that others see as futile and potentially learn something out of it while you like to consider this information to be set in stone – or at least let yourself be ignorant to what I’m trying to achieve here.

MatsP, “ You can do it. You just won't necessarily get the answer and/or discussion you want.”

The thing is, I am getting the discussion I want (with an exception of course) – people are discussing what they feed their plecos. A PERFECT example is TwoTankAdmin with his zebras and the snails in the tank! I found that interesting but you would rather cloud up my thread with what you think I should do, what you don’t like, and trying to contradict my statements. – now that’s not productive.

I apologize in advance, but as for medical terms, I feel I’d rather not waste my time trying to explain to you their meaning. You could PM and we could have our own discussion on that and not cloud this thread.

Because you complained about me defining it as a herbivore in "my vocabulary". Maybe you are just as pedantic as I can be at times, as my actual meaning was that "of the choices listed and commonly used to describe what fish eats" - whilst I may well have seen algivore as a term before, I don't think I've seen a hobbyist use it to described the diet of his/her fish.

If you believe algae is considered to be a part of a herbivore diet, then place your vote and discuss why. I admire that you have valuable knowledge about plecos and fish in general – so why not share it rather than argue over what you assumed this thread is all about. I like to say, “Assumption is the mother of all @#$% ups.” and that’s what I believe you’re doing by clouding this thread.

And if we find that these fish really prefer meaty food, but then dies within a couple of years, which is not an uncommon affair, what is the conclusion?

Really, what is the conclusion? – that person that has fed a carnivore diet to a herbivore and having it die prematurely can discuss their theory on why this happened and maybe share some information that would not only stimulate discussion but a learning experience from visitors.

[Suckermouth]

I realize zebras are not in the same genus and are known carnivores – but because of their close proximity, I would like to know what same families eat. I could potentially see a pattern, if there’s none, then great! As far as both of us, I believe that’s the main difference, I would like to dabble into information that others see as futile and potentially learn something out of it while you like to consider this information to be set in stone – or at least let yourself be ignorant to what I’m trying to achieve here.

In general, species are more similar ecologically to their close relatives than to their close cohabitants. In other words, species are more similar to members of the same genus than they are similar to other species that occupy the same habitat that are not members of the same genus. Of course, biology is a science of exceptions, but in general this pattern holds true in Loricariidae as well, which is evident from Nathan Lujan's published work on the Loricariidae, as well as his dissertation, which I believe is pubically accessible.

[Jools]

Antec,

Have you read the Shane's World article on them? That should answer your question.

Just wondering if you have and if it has answered your question?

Jools

[antec]

Yes I've read them

[sheldon]

If i might offer a simple reply to the question. I have a GNP (L81, & i do hope that doesn,t "muddy-the-waters" so to speak) & i feed him/her a mostly vegetable diet with upon occasion some "meatier" bits thrown-in, a ratio of about 3 to 1 respectively. My fish & i have now been together for about three & a half years, he/she has tripled in size in that time, each year the tank size is upgraded & each week he/she enjoys a 25% water change. I do hope this helps.