why does everyone here speak scientific?

Skyetone · Post by **Skyetone** » 29 Nov 2003, 18:37

I don't really mean everyone, but a majority do. It makes it hard for me to follow a topic when it is full of either scientific names, or L118 stuff. I understand that that is the best way to look up the fish in the wonderfull log on this sight, but can't we just say, golden pleco, or zebra pleco. I know a bushynose, alot of the shovelnose from south america, ext. why make it sound like it's science class at the university?? I am prepared to get flamed, I don't care. It's my opinion and I am wondering who thinks like me or against my thinking.

Post by **Shane** » 29 Nov 2003, 20:06

Skytone,
No reason for anyone to get flamed. Take a look at how international Planetcatfish is and you will see why scientific names are a must here. What is a "golden pleco" in Utah may not be a golden pleco in New York or Florida and certainly is not called a golden pleco in Singapore, Scotland, or Colombia. If we used common names here nobody would know what anyone else was talking about. This is one of the reasons L Numbers were invented. Since there are many of the loricariids imported for the hobby, but these fish have not yet been given scientific names, we need a system that everyone can use in order to be on the same sheet of music. If I say L 200 anyone can look the fish up. If I say punto diamante (diamond spot pleco), only Colombians would know what I was talking about. Many new hobbyists are put off by taxonomy and taxonomic terms, however, with a little bit of practice and study you will see why they are so important to use and you will start using them yourself.
-Shane

Post by **Coryman** » 29 Nov 2003, 20:06

If I were to tell you how to spawn a 'Spotted' Cory, or the best diet to feed an 'Upside down' Catfish, or even how big a 'Gold nugget' gets, would you know what speces I meant, I doubt it very much. As well as the scientific names of our fishes, the use of 'C' or 'L' number have been introduced by dedicated aquarists as an aid to recognising the fish we have or are talking about.

You have obviously come to this forum like most of us, with the aim of learning something about our Catfishes. So why not include learning the real name of your fisahes. I bet when in conversation, you don't refer to the people you know as the blond woman, the bald man or that child, so why not the fish!

Ian

general-sherman · Post by **general-sherman** » 29 Nov 2003, 20:10

Although they are easy to remember, common names are very deceptive. "Golden" pleco can be any one of many species, whereas nobody will get confused if we're talking about Scobinancistrus aureatus. I don't believe anybody tries to make this sound like "science class at university", its simply easier if everybody is talking about the same thing.

Post by **Shane** » 29 Nov 2003, 20:26

Skytone,
Check out these two articles in Shane's World under "catfishology" for some additional information. "Just Say Pleco" which Jools and I wrote for Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine and "The Catfishes of the Order Siluriformes" which I wrote for Cat Chat the journal of the Catfish Study Group (UK).
-Shane

S. Allen · Post by **S. Allen** » 29 Nov 2003, 20:36

there's a great example sitting in the pleco forum right now
http://www.forum.planetcatfish.com/viewtopic.php?t=4197

confusion due to common name.

when you say tiger shovelnose that can mean a different thing to a different person, possibly even including M. tigrinus or B. juruense as well as the standard Psuedoplatystoma species(of which there are 3 that could be called TSN).

Plecos are the main problem, because you never know what you're getting. most common names are standard, but many are from dealer to dealer. They'll say "This looks like a cheetah's coloration, I'll call it a cheetah pleco" and that could be any of a half dozen species... L#'s are important till we get species names.

Another reason is, what looks one way to someone doesn't always look the same to everyone. Case in point. http://www.aquajapan.com/encyc/catfish/ ... 005_e.html
I see absolutely nothing sexy about that loricara's mouth. Maybe it's me, but giant black/purple lips on a fish really don't do a thing for me, but hey, someone thought it was a good name. I'd have been more lilely to call it the "oh my god those lips are hideous loricara" myself. Until they revamped the site just recently I swear every other common name on that site had "dragon" in it. They seem to have kicked those for more traditional common names, but you see the reason we use L#'s and scientific names.

Post by **Silurus** » 29 Nov 2003, 20:48

The name "silver catfish" can refer to any one of at least nine species, depending on which part of the world you're in.

The name has been used for:
Arius felis
Bagrus bajad
Bagrus docmak
Chrysichthys nigrodigitatus
Ictalurus punctatus
Pangasianodon hypophthalmus
Rhamdia quelen
Schilbe intermedius
Schilbe mystus
and this list is probably not comprehensive.

'Nuff said.

oneoddfish · Post by **oneoddfish** » 30 Nov 2003, 00:38

Besides all that most of the people on here that answer all our questions are very well educated people who have dedicated most of there lives to studying and understanding fish.stick around you'll learn alot.I know I have.(now I just need to learn proper grammer).

Skyetone · Post by **Skyetone** » 30 Nov 2003, 04:09

I didn't really think about the international end of the conversatios.
I do understand the importance of getting the EXACT fish you ask for, either information or purchsace. That goes for any species.

I have two examples.... one my new "watermellon fidler crab" of which the dealers here have no sci name for. I asked for the scientific name to help with the confusion, they have a heavy loss rate here and have been in the valley for short period of time. I wanted to figure out there habbits and ph, feeding ext. Well through this forum i got several links that have helped me figure out they are a singapore porcilin crab. I don't have a sci name but close enough. I now have told the two shops I know have them what they are so that buyers can look them up easier... like me

A while ago I bought two (Sorubimichthys planiceps
) firewood shovelnose catfish. They are intruiging, but the shop knew nothing about them. I looked them up here and in other sights and figured it out. I guess the shop had a close enough name I could do it. But went in today and the same shop had the same fish at 3" and were calling them the typical south american tiger shovelnose catfish, because"thats what they kinda looked like" I told them what the more realistic common name was, and told the one kid to sell them as such.
He is a catfish guy too, I told him to come here.

So yes I do understand the need for sci names I just don't tell people I have a psudoplatistoma tank. I tell them I have a catfish tank. The ones who really ask (i hope I know the sci name right

) I tell them I have south americal shovelnose tank.

Just seems a little stuffy for a general forum. Maybe it's because I don't own a shop (yet) and haven't had to directly deal with all the idiots in the hobby, or maybe it really is that I don't know and the ignorance makes my brain hurt

anyone own a toyota truck and seen all the TVSV's, TBS's, TBI's, EFI, SOA, SUA, SYI, ext ext ext

We did that one time in a 4x4 BBS. It was funny, but rarely do we do it that way. But there are a million of em. Ask anyone who builds cars......

I guess I will have to stick around and learn all the L-'s and other names. I will keep the link to the alminac handy.

I am one of the guys that just has to ask the weird Q's that don't get asked all the time. You south americal catfish guys will see me around, I get tired of talking trucks online all the time, cant do yahoo with stupid 16yo girls.... so I go find knowledge.

If I want to talk catfish... I think it's here.....

S. Allen · Post by **S. Allen** » 30 Nov 2003, 04:30

if you haven't stumbled onto the cat-e-log, it's a great reference.

http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 30 Nov 2003, 11:15

Don't worry Skyetone!

anyone own a toyota truck and seen all the TVSV's, TBS's, TBI's, EFI, SOA, SUA, SYI, ext ext ext

I haven't got a clue here!
Don't have a car, never had one, probably never will have. I know next to NOTHING about cars...

so everybody has his/her own specialties.
It took me decades to get a truckload of Latin names memorized, and you know what happened?
They change ALL the time!!

1 example:
Once in the '70's, you could buy big, brown critters to clean up algae.
They were called "Plecostomus". Plecosomus commersoni for example.

then somebody found a scientific reason to call those "Hypostomus".

now for one reason or another 10-15 years ago, the big, brown critters that were sold had a slightly different dorsal fin, the regulars got really rare and the big finned ones turned up in huge numbers.
And those were called "Pterygoplichthys". Still, just a big, brown algae-scraper like any other.

When I got used -finally!- to the name Pterygoplichthys multiradiatus, they "hussled" the name (at least it sounds like that...) into GLYPtopterichthys.

it doesn't stop here, though.

the big, brown, bigfinned critter we buy for 5$ (or 4,5E over here) is called Liposarcus pardalis.....whatever happened to Pterygoplichthys? heck, I don't know.....

And we STILL call them "pleco's"!

talk about persistence; should have called them Lipo's, right?

ONE thing is goof though; when you, or me or someone in Singapore, Wladiwostoc or Bogota talks about Liposarcus, we ALL knw;"hey, that's that big finned, brown critter you can buy for a few bucks and it eats algae!"

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 30 Nov 2003, 11:48

Skyetone wrote:Just seems a little stuffy for a general forum.

We just couldn't usefully operate without using scientific names (and l-numbers and the like). The point is they are vital, not just something flashy for know-it-alls to parade their self importance.

What I find difficult personally is that most LFS I walk into I are ignorant of even the basic classifications. I know they have to use common names to sell common fish and that accounts for the bulk of their trade but to me if you are going to sell fish responsibily you have to know what they are. It also amazes me that the export and import trade don't use scientific names heavily either. Mind you, if they got better maybe I wouldn't get so many bargains!

Jools

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 30 Nov 2003, 11:54

Silurus wrote:The name "silver catfish" can refer to any one of at least nine species, depending on which part of the world you're in.

The name has been used for:
Arius felis
Bagrus bajad
Bagrus docmak
Chrysichthys nigrodigitatus
Ictalurus punctatus
Pangasianodon hypophthalmus
Rhamdia quelen
Schilbe intermedius
Schilbe mystus
and this list is probably not comprehensive.

and, perhaps more importantly, these fish listed above range in size from several inches to several feet, live in cold and various types of tropical water and one is even marine!

To my mind Arius felis is easier to remeber than Western atlantic hardheaded silver catfish!

Jools

Post by **Shane** » 30 Nov 2003, 16:12

It also amazes me that the export and import trade don't use scientific names heavily either. Mind you, if they got better maybe I wouldn't get so many bargains!

I have actually been very impressed with many of the collectors and their knowledge of scientific names. A European fish exporter (I can not remember the guy's name) left a few fish books in Leticia and all the local fish collectors memorized darn near all the scientific names. The problem is that the guys that buy the fish and ship them to Bogota, for the most part, know very little. I have seen them assign newly discovered loricariids L Numbers from Aqualog that were completely wrong just so they had a name to put with the fish. They will say, "I have L 71" and when I point out that L 71 is an Ancistrus from Brazil and not a Leproacanthicus from the Orinoco they reply, "So what, they are both black with white spots." This is also why fish like Corydoras leucomelas, ambiacus, and agassizii are never seperated. The collector gets $ 7.00 per thousand corys and the middleman is not sharp enough to see there are differences. If you were the collector would you take the time to seperate them out or just collect your $7.00 and move on? This is also a disaster (and sometimes a boon) to U.S. importers since Colombian exporters ship you what they have on hand and not necessarily what you ordered. This happens because they ship Ancistrus instead of Acanthicus and when the US or European importer gets angry they reply, "What is his complaint he got some black plecos with white spots." If any of you know importers, ask them how often this occurs.
If we were all on the same sheet of music, we would not have these problems and miscommunications. On the other hand, as Jools pointed out, the corys listed above would not all cost the same and we would also give up those rare shipments when we receive something actually better than what we ordered.
-Shane

Skyetone · Post by **Skyetone** » 30 Nov 2003, 18:57

so what rough persentage of frequenters here are in the fish industry somewhere? either importers, exporters, or dealers?

general-sherman · Post by **general-sherman** » 30 Nov 2003, 22:10

On a side note...
Is the fish in your avatar the "firewood catfish" (Sorumbimichthys planiceps) you purchased? If so it looks more like a Pseudoplatystoma sp. Another side note would be, are you fully aware of the commitment needed to successfully keep these large species? Sorumbimichthys planiceps easily reaches 4ft in captivity (and I've seen them bigger!), and all the Psuedoplatystoma sp. reach 3ft or more. So they're a bit of a handful to keep, what with the large ponds needed to house them, diet, filtration etc. These large species are unsuitable for captivity IMO, but people do keep them, and some specimens have lived for years (even decades) in captivity. I always say to people if you MUST keep them, have lots of time, money and SPACE at the ready. Good luck!

spiny · Post by **spiny** » 01 Dec 2003, 01:09

I have followed the discussions here, and even if a lot already is said, I can't shut my mouth..

Sometimes I go fishing. Somewhere in the world. For certain species. With specific equipment, because a Dorado bites on different baits than a Trout. Or does it?

A Dorado in South America is a powerful fish in the rivers, golden with sharp crushing teeth. Other places Dorado is a pelagic fish of the ocean, in fact called Dolphin in other parts of the world. So if telling people you go fishing for DOLPHINS you might get yourself into a pile of trouble, because most people think you just killed FLIPPER, which in fact is not a fish, but a whale.
A Sea Trout in Florida has the same colours as a Sea Trout in Europe, but they come from very different families, not closely related. Sea Bass could be one of many species of Grouper, or this silvery fish from the Mediterranean and Europe.

The British Empire at its largest, with british sailors far away from home, named a lot of animals, and even countries and cities after what they where used to back home. New York? The extinct New Zealand Grayling wiped out by introduced Trout? It wasnt a Greyling, but maybe looked a bit like one? Coral Trout that is no Trout, but something very different. Some call it Coral Cod...

There are also different languages and mixing of names that make things difficult. Taimen in finnish means Trout. When you go to Russia, the neighbour country, Taimen is a Salmon, a subspecies of the Donau-Salmon. The germans calls it Huchen by the way... Rainbow Trout are sold frozen in swedish stores as "Salmon", a sales name..

In the late 1700s Carl Von Linne (Linnaeus) saw the possible problems, and started categorizing species using Latin names ("scientific" names). Latin was the old language of the Roman empire, not used in daily speech, but known among many highly educated people, as it was still the language of the catholic church with its seat in Rome, and in the middle ages and later the bible were mostly written in Latin.
Today Greek words are mixed in, and and of course local names etc relevant for the species. Why latin? Because it was a more or less "dead" language, and thus not evolving as do languages that are daily spoken. Latin would therefor be a precise language, with less chance of being changed in the future.

When reading old scripts in languages still used today, there might be problems of understanding every meaning, because things change. Latin doesnt really change that much, and are perfect for its use in science!

It makes it possible for you and me to discuss fish, and be sure we talk about the same fish. I have to admit that when I log on to the Cichlid Forums, I do have rather big problems, when the americans there talk about their Rams, or whatever it is. I dont have a clue what species they are talking about, and of course this makes that page a bit more american than international. Nobody gains anything from that? English speaking people has the advantage that other people speak their language. I am norwegian, and norwegian has only 5 million speakers. So we have to learn other languages, myself I speak 4 except my own. A fifth I can read well but speak badly.

So be happy with the Latin/scientific names, even if they are a bit difficult to understand sometimes. It helps the world talk!

Skyetone · Post by **Skyetone** » 01 Dec 2003, 05:49

hey general yes the avitar is a what you said it was...

but that is not the fish I refered too in the topic. I plan a large pond within the next 2years when I buy a house.
He lives in a 280gallon now....

I guess when you talk world wide, you must stick with a general rule.. Like measurements...LOL My big catfish is roughly 28cm ... tell that to the local fish shop in the us and see there confusion... I can roughly translate measurements into inches. Can't do litres yet.

general-sherman · Post by **general-sherman** » 01 Dec 2003, 06:55

Hehe, I think everyone has that conversion problem. Here (Australia) tank size is stated in dimensions, whereas Americans state tank size in volume. English fishkeepers seem to do both! So I have no idea how big a 280gallon is...I know its big though, which is good. The fact that your getting a pond later on is even better.

Skyetone · Post by **Skyetone** » 03 Dec 2003, 01:07

well actually I usually explain it this way.... take your refrigerator and lay it on its back. Thats the tank. 6 feet longx2feet wide x3feet tall. I aint converting to cm though

michelle56 · Post by **michelle56** » 03 Dec 2003, 02:22

I kind of like scientific names....I arrange all my pics on my computer by families and orders....you should see it! it is kind of complex.

~Michelle~

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 03 Dec 2003, 03:30

take your refrigerator and lay it on its back.

Very funny indeed...my fridge is 60x60x70 cm which means 252 litres...

It houses trout and some frosted artemia along with cabbage. ;)

Cheese Specialist · Post by **Cheese Specialist** » 03 Dec 2003, 09:07

Hi Skyetone,

This is weird because I find myself understanding both points of view, I usually can't even get a grip on one!! LOL

It is true that the use of scientific names makes sure that everyone is taking about the same thing. And, it helps stop any errors that could be caused by confusion (as in with Jools' example of 'silver catfish'). However, I do agree with Skyetone about it making it like science class. I generally call catfish by their common name unless I am asking something specific (like when I asked about L134). I think it is good to learn these things, if you don't I don't think anyone can ever progress further than basic understanding and many people want to get further than that. It also makes us seem more knowledgable in petshops which can only be a good thing!

Maybe we could put the scitentific name and then the common in brackets? Or would this be too much hassle? The reason that I say this is becasue it would help out people like me and Skyetone and we would learn the scientific names easier at the same time as everyone knowing what fish is being discussed.

Dana x

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 03 Dec 2003, 11:48

Hi!

Its been said before but these "common names" are only for the anglo-saxons within the forum...AFAIK most of the Ls and lots of Corys dont have real common names here in Germany.
Or would you know that the Zierbindenzwergschilderwels is Panaque maccus? From a non english speaking (as a used language) the common names are totally useless for me. Think that will apply for all Europeans (not counting the island monkeys ;) ) and Asians on the forum (and we are quite a few).

greetings

Skyetone · Post by **Skyetone** » 04 Dec 2003, 01:32

sounds to me like I asked a good Q

I like getting people talking about stuff.... Not bad for a newbey Who just figured out he has an L077

coelacanth · Post by **coelacanth** » 04 Dec 2003, 09:25

Skyetone wrote:well actually I usually explain it this way.... take your refrigerator and lay it on its back. Thats the tank. 6 feet longx2feet wide x3feet tall. I aint converting to cm though

And here we have another problem. US Gallons are smaller than Imperial Gallons (I guess this was done to make up for the fact that y'all can't hold your beer).
So that 280 Gallon tank in the US is only 225 Gallons over here.

CommonPl*co · Post by **CommonPl*co** » 08 Dec 2003, 09:43

Skyetone wrote:so what rough persentage of frequenters here are in the fish industry somewhere? either importers, exporters, or dealers?

Ah... sounds like an interesting new topic... But I'll go ahead and bite here.

I'm a manager of a large petstore chain. Not as directly involved as I'd like, but it beats flipping burgers.

coelacanth · Post by **coelacanth** » 08 Dec 2003, 20:42

Skyetone wrote:so what rough persentage of frequenters here are in the fish industry somewhere? either importers, exporters, or dealers?

I suppose I am, in that I am Aquarium Development Officer for a small Public Aquarium that is part of a larger Museum and Art Gallery here in the NW of England. So I have all the fun and none of the profit margin worry!

Walter · Post by **Walter** » 08 Dec 2003, 21:22

Hi,
IÂ´m glad, that most of the users here use scientific names. Otherwise I could not read or understand the textes.
If everyone would use the metric system and Â°Celsius, it would be perfect for most parts of the world, I think. But I donÂ´t warnt to be impertinent, ... ;)

Walter · Post by **Walter** » 08 Dec 2003, 21:25

Christian,

Caol_ila wrote:.
Or would you know that the Zierbindenzwergschilderwels is Panaque maccus?

but in Germany itÂ´s Panaqolus maccus ;)

SCNR

why does everyone here speak scientific?

why does everyone here speak scientific?

common names

why?

a side note?

Scientific names?

conversion