Ammonia and zeolyte

Fiskars the Whiskers · Post by **Fiskars the Whiskers** » 08 Dec 2003, 22:50

I'm having an ammonia problem (and cloudy water) in my 10 gallon tank. I didn't have an ammonia test kit until yesterday, because the lfs was waiting for some on back order. So as soon as they came in yesterday I bought one. I checked my tank and the ammonia level is at the 4-5 range! Eek! I went back to the store and bought some zeolyte pouches that are supposed to take the ammonia out of the water. I put the pouch in yesterday afternoon around 3:30, but I have checked the ammonia level three times since I put it in yesterday and the level is still the same. One of the pictuses wasn't looking happy for the past week or so, but now he's swimming around and chasing the other one and looks much better, so I thought the ammonia was on its way out, but it's still the same, so ???

In the tank are two pictuses and a pleco. I do realize that I have been feeding them way too much. There is no gravel in there, but I have been vacuuming poop off the bottom every other day. Also, I had some plants in there for awhile and didn't realize until later that I had been leaving the lights on for too long, which is probably one reason why my water is cloudy. *sigh* I do a 25% water change weekly. I did one yesterday morning around 11:00 and I did a 40% water change this morning at 8:00. The pH is at 6.0.

I read some old posts and got some ideas on what to do to help get rid of the ammonia, including doing water changes of 25% for the next week, not feeding the fish until my cloudy water disappears, and I am putting some air stones in the tank tonight after work. The tank may get a small amount of light from the window on the other side of the room, so I put a thick, dark towel over the tank so no light will get in.

Is there anything else I can do? I feel sooooooo bad for the little guys, like I let them down, but now I realize what the problem is I want to do what I can to fix it. If anyone has any suggestions, please let me know!! Thank you!

S. Allen · Post by **S. Allen** » 08 Dec 2003, 23:07

haha, 25% water changes aren't going to be enough. I'd check to make sure your test kit's not screwed up cause if your fish have been in ammonia of 4 to 5 ppm for more than a day or so they'd be having serious problems... even 1 ppm is pretty dangerous. my suggestion would be 75% water changes and throw the zeolite in the trashcan. BJ once did a test that found it innefective at removig ammonia in a cup with a relatively large amount of zeolite. Water changes are your last hope here. Take the towel off the tank, light getting in is, at the very worst going to stimulate algae either free-floating or on the surfaces of the tank, and that'll use up some of the wastes, not add to it. The towel may possibly cut of some circulation of air, and oxygen exchange at this point should be a big concern.

How long has the tank been up and what filtration are you using?

MackIntheBox · Post by **MackIntheBox** » 08 Dec 2003, 23:18

how long has the tank ben up and running? What type of filters are you using? Like S. Allen said, take the towel off to get more algae in there, it may get a little cloudy(er) but that algae will eat the ammonia.

if the tank has not been cycled yet look into getting some "Bio-Spira". its fairly cheap, its the live bacteria that your filter will need to start the algae growth you need in your filter. I used it in my 8 gallon tank and still have no ammonia readings in there

ammonia readings started droppng within 12 hours of adding the Bio-Spira.

Fiskars the Whiskers · Post by **Fiskars the Whiskers** » 08 Dec 2003, 23:23

Hi! Thanks for writing back so fast!

Okay, so I will do 75% water changes daily then. For how long should I do that? A week? Should I do another water change today, despite the earlier 40% one?

I've been running the tank for about two months now and it only just got cloudy about two weeks ago. The one pictus and the pleco have been acting fine, and it was just the one pictus that would just stay in one corner for the past two weeks or so. Now he's acting completely fine and racing around the tank. He looks happy.

I have an over the back filter with a new cartridge in it, because it was time to change the old one. I changed it yesterday morning when I did the water change.

That is so weird that the test keeps telling me the fish are in 4-5 ppm ammonia, especially because it was still the same reading after the big water change this morning. Could the test somehow be old?

As soon as I get home in two hours I'll take the towel off the tank. *L* I seriously read somewhere on here that no light is good, so cover the tank.

MackIntheBox · Post by **MackIntheBox** » 09 Dec 2003, 00:42

Fiskars the Whiskers wrote:I have an over the back filter with a new cartridge in it, because it was time to change the old one. I changed it yesterday morning when I did the water change

This is probably what caused the ammonia levels, when you changed this cartridge you removed the beneficial bacteria and algae that runs the life cycle of the tank. This algae needs to be replaced. see if you can find some Bio-Spira, otherwise keep up with the water changes, 50 to 75 percent every other day (every day might be good, but I dont really know) to try and keep the ammonia levels down, you dont want them too low or the algae and bacteria wont grow. What model and manufacturer filter are you using? you may just need to clean the media rather than change it.

Fiskars the Whiskers wrote:I seriously read somewhere on here that no light is good, so cover the tank.

This is probably true to keep algae growth down, right now though I wouldnt be too concerned with it.

Fiskars the Whiskers · Post by **Fiskars the Whiskers** » 09 Dec 2003, 01:07

Hmmm...I'm pretty sure they don't have Bio-Spira at the lfs here. They are relatively new and don't quite have everything they need yet (hence them not having the ammonia test kits for so long

). I will check online for it. Can you recommend an online store that has it?

Off the top of my head I can't remember what kind of filter I have. I bought the tank at Wal-Mart and am using the Wal-Mart 5-15 gallon filter cartridges, but they're not the bag ones, if that's any help. So how do I keep the biological filter if I have to change the filter cartridge every 2-3 weeks? I guess I'm a little confused at this part.

Fiskars the Whiskers · Post by **Fiskars the Whiskers** » 09 Dec 2003, 01:18

Alrighty, I have found a website that sells Bio-Spira! It says to use one ounce per 30 gallons of water. How much is a third of an ounce for my 10 gallon tank? Is that like an eighth of a teaspoon? Do I put some in every time I change the water in my tanks?

S. Allen · Post by **S. Allen** » 09 Dec 2003, 01:48

Fiskars, does the filter you have have a basket in it that you could put some sort of media in, like bio-rings or cell-pore or something? Most either have that or have bio-wheels, a bio-grid, or a seperate sponge that you don't remove.

Walmart seems to sell the Regent line pretty strongly, so we'll kinda look at that, it's a penguin filter, same specs and everything, except it doesn't come with biowheels and the lid thingy doesn't have room for biowheels. in the back of those there's a basket like in this pic http://scott.aaquaria.com/bamboo.jpg , where I've planted lucky bamboo. you can fill that up with all sorts of things, my mix is cell-pore, biorings, and lava, and that serves as a substrate for pretty good bacterial colonization. BTW, the little wheels on the filter are biowheels, aren't gonna be on yours most likely, but you can actually put them there if the smaller models are like the bigger ones. the regent that corresponds to the penguin 330, (the filter in the back of the pic) has the right attatchment points for biowheels.

Other possibilities are Aquaclear, which I believe has a sponge in it that you're not supposed to replace. Another possibility would be Whisper, which, last time I had one, before it burnt out and killed a couple hundred bucks worth of fish... didn't have any similar thing, just a simple cartridge that you removed... dangerous IMO.

Fiskars the Whiskers · Post by **Fiskars the Whiskers** » 09 Dec 2003, 02:03

Hi! Unfortunately, the filter I have doesn't have any room for a media, as like yours in the picture. I have two of the small Eclipse tanks that have the bio-wheel, but this 10 gallon doesn't. I just checked and the tank I have is a Regent, but it definitely doesn't have the long back part. I can take a picture of it, but it will take a couple minutes to get it listed online and all that. I'll do that, so you can see it.

Fiskars the Whiskers · Post by **Fiskars the Whiskers** » 09 Dec 2003, 02:22

Okay, I hope this works.

You can see little shiny pictus eyes.

Okay, you can see how yucky and greenish the water is. Ick! It's not as bad as before, but definitely not clean. I did another ammonia test and it still says it's at 4-5ppm. Anyway, how can I get a biological filter going on this tank? Should I order the Bio-Spira? I put in a long air stone thing so now it's bubbling away. The pictus seem very wary of it so far. They'll get used to it.

S. Allen · Post by **S. Allen** » 09 Dec 2003, 04:05

you have other tanks? if you've got a filter cartridge from one of the eclipses that has been on the tank for long enough for some buildup to occur you can actually use it to your advantage, you can remove it, there should be at least a little bit of room behind the filter pad where you could put the used filter cartridge from the eclipse. If you've been using it a bit it'll have some helpful bacteria, but... it may take time to grow still.

Really, my big suggestion would be to buy yourself a biowheel insert,
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... 2004&Nty=1 about halfway down the page called the 99 biowheel assembly. $3.50 for a biowheel so you don't have to worry about losing your biological bacteria every time you remove the filter cartridge. I can't guaruntee it'll fit, but there's a good chance. If anyone's got a regent mini power filter have you tried adding a biowheel? I know it works on their biggest model, I'd assume it works on smallest too. If you do that, the little lid would have to be removed permanently though.

Fiskars the Whiskers · Post by **Fiskars the Whiskers** » 09 Dec 2003, 04:27

Hi! Yes, I have another Regent 10 gallon, an Eclipse 3, and an Explorer 2.5. I'll change the filter on one of the smaller tanks tonight and then make the old filter floss fit into the back of the pictus filter.

I looked at the Bio-Wheel on my Eclipse 3 and it's way too big to fit in the filter box in any way. I looked at the website you suggested. Thank you! Do you know if the $3.50 wheel is larger or smaller than the wheel in the Eclipse 3? I'll cruise around online to see if I can find the same wheel you showed me, but with a picture or maybe dimensions so I can see if it would fit in the filter box. And, of course, I would order two so that my other Regent may have one as well!

Fiskars the Whiskers · Post by **Fiskars the Whiskers** » 09 Dec 2003, 16:10

I did a large water change this morning; about 60-65%. The water looks less cloudy and the ammonia test kit said the water was now at 2-3ppm. Is there anything else I should do? Can I put a small sponge in the filter box and have that be the biological filter or does it have to be a special sponge? There is enough space to fit one there.

MackIntheBox · Post by **MackIntheBox** » 10 Dec 2003, 16:50

there are items that can be placed in there to keep the algae, not sure what would need ot be put in there though...

the cartridges that you change, can they just be rinsed out? thats what I do with my internal filter, just rinse out the sponge that makes up the filter. it doesnt kill all the algae and I havent had any ammonia spikes after cleaning (my filter has a mechanical and biological filter) I do rinse the Bio filter also, just dont squeeze it ;)

Fiskars the Whiskers · Post by **Fiskars the Whiskers** » 10 Dec 2003, 17:05

I'm not sure if I could just rinse out the filter cartridge or not? I could rinse the floss part out, but there is a little place on the other side of the floss that holds the carbon pieces. How important is the carbon? I can't take the floss off the carbon-holding cartridge. I think I just have the mechanical filter. I wonder if there is a way to add a biological filter onto this tank? Is that what I would need?

I did another 60% water change this morning. Last night the water looked pretty clear and this morning it looks great. I tested the ammonia and it is now in the .5-1 range. So I'm guessing tomorrow morning when I change it again it will be in the 0 range. Yay! So I was changing 25% of the water once a week before. Should I do 25% water changes maybe twice a week to keep the ammonia down? Or should I do a larger one once a week? And I'm definitely going to be more fastidious in cleaning up whatever food they don't eat. I just want my little buddies to be as happy as possible.

magnum4 · Post by **magnum4** » 10 Dec 2003, 19:21

Should I do 25% water changes maybe twice a week to keep the ammonia down? Or should I do a larger one once a week?

I would go with 30% twice a week at the minimum considering your previous ammonia reading?

The reason your fish arn't dead is because of the low pH reading. At a ph of < 6 > 99.9%ish excreted ammonia would be present as non toxic ammonium.

The next step would be to get a nitrite test kit and start testing. also might be a good idea to cut back on the feeding until the tank is fully cycled.

How important is the carbon?

In most tanks its not important.

You need to get more bacteria into the tanks, even if the other tank sponges don't fit in your present filter. just squeeze a little bit in the tank water after each water change. might not look good for a wile but it will do more good than all the bottle bacteria you can get your hands on!

make sure you dont wash any biological media under the tap, use water from the tank to clean the sponges in as there is no clorine present. No need to clean them too often once every six weeks is average(although i have no experience with the little tank filter you are speaking of) if you need to clean it more often don't try and get it spotless, just remove major bulk waste which would stop good water circulation.

Fiskars the Whiskers · Post by **Fiskars the Whiskers** » 10 Dec 2003, 19:41

Okay, I can definitely do 30% twice a week. Wow, I'm really glad that the pH is so low. I didn't realize it would help keep the fish alive. Even though they didn't die or don't look sick or stressed, do you think they're okay from being in the water like that for who knows how long?

I haven't fed the fish since Sunday. How much longer should I not feed them for? Is it okay for the pleco to go without algae wafers for this long? I think he's looking kinda glum, but the pictus seem fine.

I ordered the nitrite, nitrate, Gh and Kh kits yesterday, so they should be here in a couple of days. The lfs doesn't have them, but I've talked to them and should be getting some soon. It sounds like they're having problems with some of their suppliers.

What sponges are you talking about? I'm still curious as to if I can use any sponge as my biological filter. If I can, I'll get some sponges and put them in the filter boxes on my two Regents. Should I do that plus keeping the same filter in there and just keeping the big gunk off?

MackIntheBox · Post by **MackIntheBox** » 10 Dec 2003, 22:15

I beleive with the filter that you have there is a trough area that has water in it, it then runs down a ramp into the tank. there is something you can put in there to use as your BIO Media, not sure what though... can anyone help on this?

it doesnt sound like the filter you have has a bio filter of any kind.

when you clean the filter, do you just change the floss and carbon or what do you replace exactly? do you scrub it clean? if you do scrub it clean, dont! thats why all the algae is gone

and the ammonia is building up. if you have enough room on the back of the tank, you may want to add a Bio Wheel to solve the problems.

here is one from petco just to give you an idea of what you need. This could probably replce your current filter.

the filter you have now may be ready to add the Bio Wheel to it if S.Allen was right, are there any model numbers or anything on the filter anywhere? if we knew more about the filter this would be a littel easier ;)

magnum4 · Post by **magnum4** » 10 Dec 2003, 22:20

I haven't fed the fish since Sunday. How much longer should I not feed them for?

I would just feed them the same day you are planing to do a water change, untill nitrite is constant 0ppm.

What sponges are you talking about? I'm still curious as to if I can use any sponge as my biological filter. If I can, I'll get some sponges and put them in the filter boxes on my two Regents. Should I do that plus keeping the same filter in there and just keeping the big gunk off?

I was talking about the sponges in your other tanks just squeeze the water they will be naturally holding into the tank this will introduce the bacteria you need. Any sponge thank was intended for aquatic use is acceptable, try and put in as much as you can without packing too tight because as it traps waste the flow would slowdown and it would still be inefficient.

These tanks come with a bio wheel plus some other stuff? I personally would just stick with this type if it was designed to fit the tank(or are they not very well designed?). if you do stick with the filters just make them as mature as possible and don't overstock the tank, if fish grow too big move them on sooner rather than later. IMO small tanks benifit most from regular water changes once per week, twice on some weeks, but the maintaince schedule can be played around with to find out what works best for you.

Fiskars the Whiskers · Post by **Fiskars the Whiskers** » 10 Dec 2003, 22:48

Hi! No, my filter doesn't have a trough area on it, but thank you SO much for sending me the URL of the Penguin filter with the bio-wheel! Since I don't have the sponge or bio-wheel in my present filter box, this will be great! Actually, since I'm going to the lfs today for another gravel vac I will see if they have this filter, because I think I've seen it down there. I've never cleaned the filter in the tank I have now. When I do maintenance I just replace the filter after it's gotten a bunch of gunk on it and there I go!

I don't have sponges in my other tanks. All of the tanks just have the filter cartridges, but the two small tanks both have bio-wheels.

I really, really appreciate the replies I've been getting. I wouldn't have known that I could do such big water changes and I would have been freaking out. *L* I think I'm getting a lot better handle on things, though. I suppose it's a learning process.

MackIntheBox · Post by **MackIntheBox** » 10 Dec 2003, 23:17

is this your filter?

it looks very similiar to the one you showed on the picture of your tank and seems to use the same filter media you described. Is this what you replace each time in the filter?

if this is your filter then I would recomend getting a bio wheel for bio filtering.

Fiskars the Whiskers · Post by **Fiskars the Whiskers** » 11 Dec 2003, 00:48

Hi! No, that's not my filter. I don't have the bag filter. My filter is a black plastic cartridge that has a space where the carbon is. On top of that is the blue floss stuff. It feels like a scotch-brite pad.

I get off work at 4:30, which is in 45 minutes (Thank God! I'm so tired of being here!) and I'm heading straight to the lfs to check out their filter selection for one with a bio-wheel.

Fiskars the Whiskers · Post by **Fiskars the Whiskers** » 11 Dec 2003, 01:11

Hey, I was looking online for the Marineland Penguin Bio-Wheel 125 Filter and one website says that it's 8" across, but I think the length of that is bigger than the cutout in my tank hood. What should I do?

Okay, I've been the the lfs and I'm now home. The opening on my tank hood is 6" open for a filter. I saw a filter at the store that is maybe an Aquarium Systems brand or something? I think it might fit. I think I'll go back and buy it either tonight or tomorrow night. I might do some searching around the web and see if I find anything else. Although, I did get my gravel vac and am quite excited to use it for the first time. Whoo hoo! Fishies are getting clean water tonight!!!

Back again! At http://www.drsfostersmith.com I found the Penguin Bio-Wheel Filters. The mini one says it is for 2-20 gallon aquariums. I think width-wise it would fit on my tank. If no one has anything negative to say about it, I'll order two so that I can have one on my other tank.

The filters have now been ordered, but they'll be here in almost two weeks.

That's the bad part about living in Alaska. It takes so long to ship stuff here sometimes. *grumble grumble*