Filtration Problems

[IJPleco]

Hello all. First hello all and forgive me if I ramble. l just got into catfish about a year ago when I bought a couple of Gold Nuggets for my 125 gallon Discus Tank. A few months ago I set up a 37 gallon w/ 5 Gold Nuggets (L018s) and 2 bushy-nose ancistrus (no clue as to their L number--they were given to me a year ago as fry and until I set up this tank, they were in a 6 gallon fluval). Also in the 37 gallon are some flitter fish (black tetra's, neons, and a several "true-black" cory's.

Everyone's happy (PH 7.0/temp 81F) and eats well; better than I do. They get zuchinni, cucumber, yellow bell peppers, and other assorted greens. The Ancistrus spawned over Xmas (I just put the babies, dad, and cave in a separate tank the other day). I only got about 20 fry, but they seem healthy.

Now on to my problem that I hope someone can either help or link me to another thread previously brought by another member: The eheim 2217 seems to clog with slime (possibly vegetable slime and waste), but it's annoying. I tried putting a prefilter sponge on the eheim intake, but it merely delays the eventual stoppage. Thus I need to clean out the filter every week. Does anyone have any ideas or recommendations? Any input is appreciated as I'm still learning about caring for catfish.

Thanks again & Happy New Year to all.

[bekateen]

Hi IJPleco,

First of all, welcome to PlanetCatfish, and congratulations on the spawn of your bristlenoses.

Regarding the slimy accumulation on your filter, you didn't mention how long you leave the fresh vegetables in the tank. Myself, when I feed my bristlenoses fresh cucumber or zucchini, I leave the vegetable pieces in the tank for only 2-3 days (but even that may be too long) and then I remove whatever portion isn't eaten and I throw it away. This also means that I don't use very big pieces of veggies, because otherwise more would go to waste.

Using this feeding style, I've never had any slimy accumulations on my filters or their intakes. However, there were a few times when I first started feeding fresh veggies that I left the veggies in the tank for 4 days or longer. When I did that, the veggies started to turn to mush, they clouded the tank water, and they accumulated on my filter intakes and filter pads.

If this sounds like what you're experiencing, then I'd recommend feeding the fish smaller pieces of veggies and not leaving them in the tank very long. If this is not your problem, then please provide more info.

Cheers, Eric

P.S., The other thing I should mention is that when compared to all the other fish I've ever kept, plecos poop A LOT! They seem to require more tank maintenance (in terms of waste removal) than anything I've ever had.

[IJPleco]

Thanks Eric. By the way, call me IJ. I usually only leave the veggies in overnight--never more than 24 hours or else they're shredded to nothing... and since there are 7 total plecos, and I saw fighting once, I put out between 6 and 8 portions all around the tank.

When they turn to mush, and that seems to take just about 24 hours (especially cucumber), it does get very cloudy, but if the eheim 2217 is running like normal, it usually pulls it into the prefilter within a couple hours and I just clean the prefilter. (If I get really annoyed I pull out the Vortex--but I only do that every 4 or 5 weeks.)

I wholeheartedly agree these poop a lot, but I hate to think the gunk that clogs the bottom of the eheim is poop. Sometimes I have to disconnect the intake side and take it to the sink and run water through to push out the gunk.

So this slimy gunk that looks like mushed/pureed/slime isn't normal, eh? I hate to think I need a more powerful filter that a 2217 for a 37 gallon, but would that help? (Oh and I forgot to mention in my original post that I also have a 5" sponge filter bubbler in the tank.)

Again, I appreciate your response, but perhaps I need to cut back on the veggies. (I was thinking about this slime remover that Fishvet makes, but I don't know how safe it is. (http://www.fishvet.com/WOW%20Freshwater.htm )

Has anyone else used it or anything like it in a tank with Plecos?

[bekateen]

Hi IJ,

Okay, the veggie removal sounds fine. I'm not familiar with your particular model of power filter, but its specs (I looked them up on the web) appear to be adequate for a 37 gal aquarium, especially with the sponge filter (which, by the way, was evident in the photo you provided ).

I guess now I'm wondering about the "slime" itself. About your tank, you didn't say how many other fish you have, and how much you feed them all. Is it possible that this slime you're describing is just the normal filter sludge that builds up in filters? If you have a tank with a lot of fish and you feed them 2-3 times per day, then they're going to make a lot of waste. My filters have removable cartridges which clog with a brown sludge every two weeks or so, at which time the cartridges need to be rinsed out or replaced. This sludge is a mix of poop, uneaten food, microbial buildup, rotting plant matter from live plants, and whatever else the filter can suck in from the water (including fish and frog eggs, and live Tubifex worms). On a side note, I've read that some people actually use the sludge as a good food supplement for the fry of certain fish spp. But I don't know how wise or prevalent that practice is, or for which spp. it's useful.

At this point, I think it's best for me to step out and defer to others for additional wisdom.

Good luck, Eric

[NCE12940]

I have 5 tanks with Plecos (regular, long-fin and red bristlenoses, and 2 medusas). I have sponge or mesh pre-filters in all my tanks (all HOB filters). I clean the pre-filters at least every other day. The largest tank has 3 adult red bristlenoses and close to 100 babies so you can see why I clean the pre-filters so often. (Babies are headed to the LFS this week.) At any rate, I only clean the filters themselves about once a week, and also do daily siphoning and water changes in 3 small tanks, and vacuum / water change the other 2 tanks every other day. (I'm retired and this is now my day job ;).)

When I give fresh veggies unless they're very firm (I don't blanch or pre-cook) I take them out within 24 hours. Sweet potato I do nuke for 10 seconds or so, otherwise I can't get the Pleco Feeder in it without stabbing my fingers. But it can also be left in the tank longer because it's so dense.

However, any animal that's a vegetarian is going to produce a lot of waste; comes with the territory so to speak. Think cows, horses, elephants(!) . . .

[IJPleco]

Thanks again Eric and now thank you NCE. BTW, nice to meet you both. I do overfeed, no question about that. I like to see the plecos with full fat little bellies. Since I've noticed that my other Gold Nuggets in the Discus Tank eat black worms (and they just move in and the Discus seem to make way for them and eat around them), I also supplement the 5 GNs in the 37 gal. with worms--but realistically most of the other fish eat them before they hit the sand. Now Eric, you were right I didn't describe the sludge. It looks like very light pale color, and translucent sorta like molasses, but a shade clearer. Perhaps as you both mentioned, these plecos are pretty disgusting eaters and poopers, and I need to either look at other options (perhaps adding a HOB) or cutting back on veggies.

Also, I don't blanch them or they turn to mush in the water to quickly. For the past few months--well since I got this tank and the pleco's in it, I've tried to make sure there are several pieces of veggie suctioned to the sides or the bottom at all times. Is this too much? Should I just give them veggies a couple days a week and feed them the algae tablet crap that look like vitamins on other days?

Oh well, I'll figure it out.

Thanks all.

[NCE12940]

I don't have any real schedule for what I feed. I don't much care for veggies myself so I mostly buy them for the fish. When they don't get veggies I most often use Repashy gel foods, which make less mess than the dry algae wafers. I use petri dishes for the gel food and / or wafers and it localizes any mess. When I do water changes I also vacuum the gravel and the babies go crazy for *goodies* that have been turned up. (I have to be careful not to suck them up as well!)

I've never had anything but HOB filters but to me they're pretty simple and easy to clean. I bred and showed dogs for years so Pleco mess doesn't faze me ;)

As you can see, I tend to overfeed too!

[IJPleco]

Nice pic. What are those? the juvi bristlenose?

I've tried the rapashy. Hell, I even bought a few "flavors" and then even tried to mix some (i.e., soylent geen with meat pie, etc.). They won't touch it. They wait for the veggies or, just recently, eat the pleco wafer. I'm too afraid to let them go hungry; it's a battle of wills and they win. I can't let a $60 fish starve to death just to win an argument. doh!

I was thinking that maybe I can take different media in the external filter; and try some stuff a friend mentioned. It's call Poret sponges. They come in different coarseness. So evidently your supposed to use four or five different ones.. (very course to very fine). And the sponges throughout provide a living site for bacteria. All reusable. So no more bio-balls and filter pads. Just another thought and another way to piss away money.

nite

[jp11biod]

Good job Nancy--- that's one healthy looking bunch of little BN!

JS

[JamesFish]

I found switching to pea's helped. 100 very active poop machines even when small strain filters. I used frozen pea's and shelled them. Slight faff but it worked better for the filter. Also you can spread them out more. If you have a spare internal place it by intake to pickup junk.

[NCE12940]

With 3-4 spawns in the tank and all that competition, these guys will eat anything I put in there! I forget about the peas; I do have them and feed them when I do remember. Even the Medusas (wild-caught) eat the Repashy and the veggies.

I have Seachem Purigen and Matrix in my filters as well as internal sponges and pre-filter sponges. Purigen is easy to re-charge and does a good job of keeping the water clear.

Thanks James! I think that's why they survived during the 30-hour power outage with Arctic weather. After I wrapped the tanks I was afraid to look at them until the power was back on - the babies were all busy doing their usual vacuuming routine. There are about 3 from the 1st spawn in there as well as babies from 3 more spawns (including some long-fins). A bunch of them have already gone to the LFS and Paz and his girlfriends are separated for a rest!

[TwoTankAmin]

A few thoughts here.

1. Fish almost never starve themselves to death. There is no reason they will not eat the Repashy Veggie mix. Paint it on rocks and feed it that way. Keep feeding it until they start to eat it.
2. I do not think you have a filtration problem, I think you have stocking issues. You are overstocking and that is the heart of the problem.
3. There is almost no way to have 5 nuggets in a 37 gal. for any real time. As they gain size they will not tolerate each other or other bottom dwellers in the space you have put them. They are messy fish as are all vegetarian and aufwuchs feeders.
4. While this site is a great resource, I would suggest you also might want to have a read here http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/ba ... anthellus/
5. The problem is likely not being caused as much by what goes into the front end of the fish, I think the issues stem more from the other end.

[NCE12940]

A few thoughts here.

1. Fish almost never starve themselves to death. There is no reason they will not eat the Repashy Veggie mix. Paint it on rocks and feed it that way. Keep feeding it until they start to eat it.
2. I do not think you have a filtration problem, I think you have stocking issues. You are overstocking and that is the heart of the problem.
3. There is almost no way to have 5 nuggets in a 37 gal. for any real time. As they gain size they will not tolerate each other or other bottom dwellers in the space you have put them. They are messy fish as are all vegetarian and aufwuchs feeders.
4. While this site is a great resource, I would suggest you also might want to have a read here http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/ba ... anthellus/
5. The problem is likely not being caused as much by what goes into the front end of the fish, I think the issues stem more from the other end.

I couldn't agree more with all your points! I know I'm overstocked in a 45g and that's why I clean and vacuum so frequently. (And why a bunch more babies are headed to the LFS.) If I can get adult wild-caught medusas to eat repashy it's obvious it can be done. And I do get tired of people complaining about the poop. Does one buy a cow for milk and then complain about cow plop? It comes with the territory. If you like the fish, that's the trade-off.

[bekateen]

2. I do not think you have a filtration problem, I think you have stocking issues. You are overstocking and that is the heart of the problem.
3. There is almost no way to have 5 nuggets in a 37 gal. for any real time. As they gain size they will not tolerate each other or other bottom dwellers in the space you have put them. They are messy fish as are all vegetarian and aufwuchs feeders.
5. The problem is likely not being caused as much by what goes into the front end of the fish, I think the issues stem more from the other end.

I couldn't agree more with all your points! I know I'm overstocked in a 45g and that's why I clean and vacuum so frequently... If you like the fish, that's the trade-off.

I agree with both of you on this. It's a lot of fish in the tank and a lot of food, creating a lot of poop. IJ, your "slime" is probably normal for the tank you have.

Does one buy a cow for milk and then complain about cow plop? It comes with the territory.

That's why most people just buy milk at the grocery store. And IJ, I don't know if you have kids, but if you don't, just wait until you do. While they're young, you'll be knee-deep in poop. They're like Play-Doh Fun Factories, except they dispense poop instead of Play-Doh.

Cheers, Eric

[IJPleco]

Sorry I didn't respond yesterday, but I was disheartened to hear that I've overstocked the 37 gallon. I was actually hoping to introduce 2 spotted medusa plecos (L255s) to the tank--assuming I can find any. I've been looking for months. (I thought those would be good for the GNs since they live in the same river and same water conditions (i.e., the Rio Xingu). What's more, I started with GNs because they can tolerate the PH and temperature that Discus can. Oh well. No L255s for a while then.

I initially wanted a 65 gallon instead of the 37, but couldn't find one on craigslist that match my 125 stand. And I haven't worried about fighting since I usually put in more pieces of veggie than plecos. {I saw my first two nuggets fighting when I first put them in the 125. It lasted about 15 minutes and was pretty violent, barbs flaring, spinning around each other--but no one got hurt. Since then, I always put food in different locations.}

As for kids and poop, that was a LONG time ago; and it wasn't diapers or poop that annoyed back then... but that damn apple juice. The boy carried a bottle of apple juice around the house and christened everything. To this day, I still think he's "sticky" when I give him a hug.

Okay, so based on what everyone has said, I have too issues. Too much veggies and too many fish. Well, I can't do much about having the 5 GNs and 2 Ancistrus in the same tank for a while. Perhaps in a few months I can replace with a 65. But for now, I plan to break out the Repashy again (at least I'll try and see if they eat) and supplement with the algae wafers and fresh veggies just once or twice a week. I'll suffer with cleaning the filter--but I really believe there's got to be another solution. I mean I do 50% water changes every two to four days, I keep it relatively clean--but I can say I don't vacuum the sand. I bought one of those eheim pro-vacs, I don't think it does a great job with sand--it works better on the black substrate in the discus tank--but I was told that I wasn't supposed to even clean that stuff. So another toy in the closet.

Oh, and I put my male ancistrus and his cave back in the 37 gal tank (he was with his spawn for a few days); and he just took over another cave that one of my GNs has been hanging out in. I've noticed that even though most of the GNs are the same size as the the male ancistrus (about 4 3/4 inches IF you count the tail), they defer--or avoid the male ancistrus). Shocking! I just assumed the GNs would would be the rulers of the tank.

Since I've mentioned my 125 discus tank, I thought I'd provide a picture..

Anyway, I have enjoyed this and the help you all provided.

IJ new to Plecos.

[bekateen]

Beautiful discus tank, IJ. And congratulations on raising a "sticky" kid (it's better than a poopy one)! LOL

[Narwhal72]

Even a 65 is too small for 5 GN's. Although they grow slowly, they each have the capability of getting 8" plus. In addition, they are very aggressive towards conspecifics and can really brutalize each other.

I had 4 that I bought in summer 2011 in a 120. Down to 3 now. Lost one but don't know why (never found a body). The three remaining are constantly chasing and harassing each other but don't seem to cause any real damage (no split fins or injuries). I bought them about 2.5-3" SL size and they are now about 4" SL. I can only imagine the territoriality will get worse as they mature in another 3-4 years.

I would say the 125 is a good place to move them except that the GN's like a strong, fast moving current which discus will not appreciate. On my 120 I have a 2600 gph circulation pump on one end of the tank blowing lengthwise in addition to the discharge from the filter.


Andy

[IJPleco]

Thanks Bekateen, I appreciate the complement.

And Andy, I also appreciate the input. Unfortunately I probably won't be able to get another 125, so we'll just have to see if a 65 will work in the future. I have no room for another huge tank--but I do play the Lottery occaisionally--so never say never.

Peace out.

[syno321]

Gorgeous discus tank! Have you ever considered fasting your fish, say 1 day a week? I know that feeding is the most interactive facet of keeping fish, but I'm wondering if this might help your situation.

[IJPleco]

Thanks syno. Well, that's not an altogether bad idea. There's certainly an argument, and evidently evidence that, for example Discus do just fine if they fast for a day or even a few days every few weeks. If I go away for a long weekend, they're fine. They're certainly more alert when I get home...possibly 'cause their hungry. I'm sure the plecos would survive a fast one day a week as you recommend. I may do that and monitor for any agression. As I've said, they all seem to get along when there's ample food and hidy-holes, albeit there seems to be a pecking order or deference between this GN and that GN as they go from one veggie to another.

And as for the filter slime issue; I've just changed the media contents of the canister. I removed some bags of Matrix (like puregen, but for high-flow canisters), and some of the other pads that might impact flow. Perhaps the slime buildup is because it has time to accumulate as the veggies deteriorate into cellulose slime. All they got tonight was algae wafers... I could tell by the way they looked at me they weren't amused.

By the way, does anyone know if other plecos will eat baby ancistrus plecos. I noticed that a couple of the fry from the Ancistrus spawn must have abandoned the cave before I moved it and dad. I'm just curious, would the GNs eat the fry? (I think if they survive another week, they may be too big for the black tetras to eat.)

[TwoTankAmin]

My point is not that they poop a lot as much as that poop may be the cause, or at least a good part of of the cause of your problem.

My personal experience is pleco tanks for breeding are often best left unplanted and often bare bottom. It took me a while to learn that display tanks are not all that great for pleco spawning and fry rearing. They are easier to clean and to monitor. And for sure they are a lot easier to get fish out of when the time comes to do so. My solution for having plants in tanks was tio use lots of floaters and maybe some java fern on wood or rock which is also easy to remove when one need to catch fish or work on the tank for other reasons.

[jodilynn]

Regarding a messy, slimy filter, I also had problems on my 55 gallon and once I put a large sponge filter on the intake and made sure I was rinsing the filter material out every time I cleaned it the problem was solved!

[IJPleco]

Thanks Jo. Since I reduced the amount of various pads and other media in the eheim, and I have cut the veggie feeding down to 2-3 days a week, all seems fine. I have been feeding them both Repashy Soilent Green and Supergreen. I can't say that the Gold Nuggets rush out for the Repashy like they do for fresh zucchini or cucumber, but I have seen them nibbling on it--so there's hope. I also started feeding the Ancestries fry with the Repashy Spawn and Grow, and they love it. Of course the fry are in a little 10 gallon with an HOB filter and a sponge filter and zero slime with these little guys.