Pleco Identification Please help

[bubblychaz]

Hi, Ive been looking at these pleco all day,

They are a friends. They are the only two pleco he has. Has had them 1 year.
One is albino (4-5 inches) one is not (5-6 inches) Neither have really grown in the year, He put a submarine deco in the tank and all a sudden he has babies!!!

We have looked at bristlenose pleco (Neither has bristles)
we looked at common pleco (They seem to small the breed for common)
They bred easily without any set conditions all he did was add an ornament, They have had 2 batches now.

Leopard sailfin pleco.. again seem to small to be breeding and aparently none of the requirements they need have been met (For instance they are in a 180 Litre 3 ft tank, with gravel). They bred at 25 degrees and 28 degrees.

So the parents:



The babies



Ive tried going by the babies fin shapes to find the species and i get stuck, Im confused to how one baby looks like a golden nugget!!!

All I can say is the pleco

breed at 4-6 inches
breed very easily
comes in albino and spotty
Top fin is jagged abit
the albino has a spotty pattern slightly

Oh an ph is about 7-7.2

Any help please guys?

[Martin S]

Hi
Pics 1, 5, 6 & 15 - albino form of the 'common bristlenose'

Ancistrus cf_cirrhosus

;
Pics 2 and 3 - Either

Pterygoplichthys pardalis

or

Pterygoplichthys disjunctivus

- the pattern on the stomach area will determine which;
The remaining pics look to all be the 'common bristlenose'

Ancistrus cf_cirrhosus

;
Hope this helps
Martin

[bubblychaz]

Up date of today,

I now have both parents and 1 albino fry and brown fry. ive also taken measurements. Albino is 2.5 Inch and Brown is 3.5 inch. They are all in my 3ft tank alone (Just incase my friends 2ft was stunting growth) I have no other fish or plec in the 3ft with them.

Brown fry is 2cm and albino is 3cm.. same batch about 3 weeks old.

There are no bristles on either "adult" pleco. Neither adult pleco has been near another pleco for nearly a year. For them to breed at this size their full adult size must be 5-6 inch?







this is the adult abino





the fry

[bekateen]

You're right to observe that for plecos (of any kind) to spawn successfully, you must have both a male and female together at the time the eggs are laid for successful reproduction - plecos are not like guppies and other fish where the female can be inseminated once by a male and then weeks or months later lay fertilized eggs or give birth to live young without the male anywhere nearby.

Yes,

Ancistrus

have a reputation for hybridizing with other Ancistrus, but I'm having a REALLY DIFFICULT time imagining that an Ancistrus could spawn successfully with a

Pterygoplichthys

. I'm not saying it's impossible; I'm just saying I've never heard of it, and I would suspect that there should be a bunch of barriers (genetic and otherwise) which should prevent these eggs from developing, even if the parents "got it on." Moreover, since you have babies, I'm also skeptical of them being hybrids because they look like perfectly normal Ancistrus (i.e., not some mixture of Ancistrus and Pterygoplichthys traits; never mind that some are albino and some aren't; I'm talking about body shape and color patterns)... There's no evidence of body shape hybridization or deformity in your photos.

I'm curious - Where did your friend get the submarine decoration? If it came out of another tank rather than brand new, dry and fresh from of a store shelf, it's possible that the decoration had eggs or fry in it from the original tank, if that tank contained a pair of Ancistrus and those Ancistrus were using it as a spawning cave. In that case, your friend just got really lucky. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I would expect to find out that this was the correct explanation.

Alternatively, how well do you know your friend who gave you these fish? Is there any chance they are pulling a fast one on your? Could this be a prank on you (i.e., could your friend have gone out and bought babies, or might they have actually owned a male Ancistrus in the past which they are not telling you about)?

By the way, I have albino Ancistrus and they are spawning at about 3" length, so your albino parent is not too small, in my opinion.

Cheers, Eric

[bekateen]

P.S. Sorry to tell you this, but your link to an image of the fry doesn't work. Here, I'll fix it:

[bubblychaz]

You're right to observe that for plecos (of any kind) to spawn successfully, you must have both a male and female together at the time the eggs are laid for successful reproduction - plecos are not like guppies and other fish where the female can be inseminated once by a male and then weeks or months later lay fertilized eggs or give birth to live young without the male anywhere nearby.

Yes,

Ancistrus

have a reputation for hybridizing with other Ancistrus, but I'm having a REALLY DIFFICULT time imagining that an Ancistrus could spawn successfully with a

Pterygoplichthys

. I'm not saying it's impossible; I'm just saying I've never heard of it, and I would suspect that there should be a bunch of barriers (genetic and otherwise) which should prevent these eggs from developing, even if the parents "got it on." Moreover, since you have babies, I'm also skeptical of them being hybrids because they look like perfectly normal Ancistrus (i.e., not some mixture of Ancistrus and Pterygoplichthys traits; never mind that some are albino and some aren't; I'm talking about body shape and color patterns)... There's no evidence of body shape hybridization or deformity in your photos.

I'm curious - Where did your friend get the submarine decoration? If it came out of another tank rather than brand new, dry and fresh from of a store shelf, it's possible that the decoration had eggs or fry in it from the original tank, if that tank contained a pair of Ancistrus and those Ancistrus were using it as a spawning cave. In that case, your friend just got really lucky. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I would expect to find out that this was the correct explanation.

Alternatively, how well do you know your friend who gave you these fish? Is there any chance they are pulling a fast one on your? Could this be a prank on you (i.e., could your friend have gone out and bought babies, or might they have actually owned a male Ancistrus in the past which they are not telling you about)?

By the way, I have albino Ancistrus and they are spawning at about 3" length, so your albino parent is not too small, in my opinion.

Cheers, Eric

Well He lives down the road and I see him maybe once twice a week.

He brought the sub new, when I went to get some more cherry barbs he bought the sub as cave for his pleco. I laughed because the sub is 2 ft long and I was like NO! You need caves which are slightly bigger than the pleco and he was adament it was the sub or a helicopter both at 2ft! The sub was £7 cheaper,

If the sub had come from another tank it would of been a great explanation!

I agree for the babies to be hybrid their should be some sort of deforms or defects, Right now there is none. But we cant say that it wont happen as fry grows.

Ive been looking at all sorts of 6-7inch species that will spawn at 3 inches. Still struggling to find matches. Though no matter what I look at, when I search for the albino version of that species then this albino matches. So Seems cant go from albino as they all look pretty much the same in all species.

I have compared these two my BN's for hours last night. Im not convinced they are BN's. Though I do only have a male albino BN and no female Albino BN, So Ive tried to go off the fins and body shapes of my female BN's... Again Not convinced but not saying its not possible the albino is a bn.

[bubblychaz]

P.S. Sorry to tell you this, but your link to an image of the fry doesn't work. Here, I'll fix it:

Thank you

[bubblychaz]

I think Spawning them and documenting it may help?

Without knowing the species I dont know how to induce the spawning season with them.

With my BN's I give them 3 days of good feed, do a huge water change 60%, add 30% RO water and usually breeding commences.

Maybe I should try induce spawning season for these guys? But how without knowing what they are? Any suggestions?

[bubblychaz]

Oh something else I noticed.

The brown one does NOT come out when their is light. If the tank light is on then he is no where to be seen! If I catch him as the light comes on his fin goes down and he shots into the submarine. Is this behaviour trait to any other pleco?

[bubblychaz]

Got more..
Pictures of the male too

[bubblychaz]

more pics of the brown

[bekateen]

Thanks for the extra photos. Your brown pleco has a spotted underbelly, so it could be

Pterygoplichthys pardalis

, but it isn't

Pterygoplichthys disjunctivus

.

Thanks also for the additional info about the source of the sub decoration and the history of the fish and your neighbor. Okay, you leave us with few options other than to accept the possibility that the albino pleco (which looks like a typical healthy albino

Ancistrus cf_cirrhosus

to me) successfully spawned with the brown pleco, which is probably

Pterygoplichthys pardalis

. I just don't see how they pulled it off, and I would have expected that the P. pardalis would need to be a lot bigger before it was sexually mature.

You asked about the option of stimulating them to spawn again in order to test the hypothesis that they've spawned successfully in the past. To be honest (and blunt), I don't think that anybody on this website would advocate for that approach. The members here are more interested in the health and well-being of the fish they keep, and they shun/discourage people from purposefully trying to breed different species in order to create hybrids, which would likely create... there's no better word for them... genetic monsters as offspring.

If you ask me, my advice is to go out of your way to PREVENT them from breeding again. If you do this, then the only possible evidence that you'll ever get (that these adults spawned) will be found in the babies you already have - grow them out and see if they grow to a healthy normal shape normal size.

Cheers, Eric

P.S., One last question: If I understood you correctly, you already own some common bristlenoses (not counting these fish from your friend), and it sounds like yours have spawned in the past. Has there been any previous transfer of items (plants, decorations, rocks, fish, etc) from your tanks to your friend's tank in the past? Is it possible that some of your own eggs or fry might have been transferred to your friend's tank by that mechanism and that's how he ended up with baby Ancistrus?

[bubblychaz]

Hi

I struggle to believe its a common pleco. (I have one hes 14 inches and names casey aka tank destroyer)

This brown "thing" has grown 1/4-1/2 inch in a year.. which in my opinion too slow for a common pleco.

My friend wouldnt have anything second hand in his tanks. He wouldnt even do live plants becasue they could transfer snails and parasites. Hes over paranoid if you ask me.

Is there absolutely anyway possible a male bristlenose without bristles?

For these to be sexual maturity size surely their fully grown size would only be 5-6 inches?

[Martin S]

It's definitely not Ancistrus, and without any doubt in my mind a

Pterygoplichthys pardalis

. Whilst the abnormally slow growth rate is a worry, due to the way these are farmed, it could just be a 'runt' or have some genetic issue - we will never know for sure, but on the plus side you get to keep a fish that would normally outgrow your tank! Male ancistrus have bristles, females also but only around the edge of the 'top lip' - males are all around and up the middle, the length/density depends on the species. I, like @bekateen, cannot believe the two fish in question would cross-breed, so can only think there is another answer we're missing.
Regards
Martin