Fine yellow spots, mass deaths, happy holidays to me

[Taratron]

But is it velvet? Signs would point to yes, but on at least one fish I see over a hundred, fine salt-like and clearly defined spots, not patches or shiny. But yellow, not white.

So some years ago I had an issue with my adult hoplos, and they ended up all dying. This time I think it is velvet for sure, but only my plecos have been affected, and my L brevis cats.

It started about a month ago, when I got a new 55 gallon tank setup. Sweet, the plan was to put my calvus juvies and my leleupi juvies in there for growout (they were in a 37 and 20 before then). I had to take down 3 20 gallon tanks for the 55 to fit, and moved all the BN pleco fry from their 20 to a 20 long, and the adults to the 37. I kept all the filters wet and moved all the driftwood and kept everything safe with Prime and matching water.

A few days later all the longfin fry were dead. Maybe the stress of the move. There were no marks on them so I never put it down to disease. A single longfin adult had snuck in with them...and despite water changes daily, her white fins streaked with red and she was dead within two days. About the same time I noticed the two blue-eyed BN I had with the calvus had slightly sunken eyes. I removed them asap but they died in a QT tank within, again, two days. No spots or marks. The leleupi in the calvus tank all died within another two days, but I put it down to aggression from the calvus, which were slightly larger. Right now the calvus are alone in their 55, no spots, no streaks, no signs of anything.

While dealing with this, the 37's BN group started to get bloody streaks. Water quality issues. I couldn't understand why, the tank shouldn't be cycling. More water changes and Prime, no feeding, and dieoffs. I saw the first yellow spots shortly after.

All signs pointed to velvet. I threw some heaters in all the tanks (I usually don't have to, our winters are pretty warm still) and all the plecos in the 37 ended up with the fine yellow spots. They were breathing harder, so more air stones and powerheads, and they eventually all died. And during this, the plecos in my other 55, with my albino yellow labs, got a few yellow fine spots.

Cue panic mode. Because while I have a lot of nets and tend to keep them to their own tanks, it doesn't matter as I have one Python system to change all the water. I upped the temperatures in almost every tank to 84. More air stones. I actually flicked the power breaker and lost all power to my bedroom and the fish room/spare bedroom with this.

My L260 group and my L brevis cats did not get any spots. That I could see. But they did have an ammonia spike when one queen died, and despite my best efforts with more water changes, they all died. However....I had a fry floater in their tank with BN fry. Those fry all showed yellow spots (I removed them once I saw the spots) and that was about four or five days before the other fish died.


So here is what I have right now.

A 90 gallon with several adult blue eyed BN plecos, some L201, farlowella, juvie hoplos, and lots of shrimp. I have not seen any spots on any fish.

A 20 gallon with P typus cats and 3-4 blue-eyed BN adults. I have not seen any spots. Typus cats in a cave right now.

A 20 gallon with longfinned blue eyed BN adults, some panda garra. There was a fry floater in their tank, and when the BN fry got yellow spots, they were removed.

20 gallon fry tank with blue eyed BN fry and some albino lab fry, and cherry shrimp. I thought I saw a spot on a fry but can't be sure. However I have lost several of the youngest fry in the tank, either due to competition or the illness, but I never see any spots on them.

A 55 with Julie dickfeldi and some blue-eyed BN adults. No spots.

A 29 with my zebras. No spots.


And an empty 20 long that held my queen juvies and my L brevis cats. Currently only housing assassin snails.


In the other room, a 55 with calvus. No spots.

29 with Julie dickfeldi. No spots.

A 20 long with a single P typus juvie and cherry shrimp. No spots.

Second 20 long with P typus juvies. No spots.

The 37, now a QT tank, with several adult BN from the 55 (below) tank. Single brown female covered in yellow dots. Two male blue eyed with less spots. And a damn kuhli loach that has been living in the sand for over two years without a single spot. There were more kuhlis, they died without spots and had been in the tank for a year or so, always hiding.

55 with my albino yellow labs. The temp is currently 82. It was higher, but the holding female spat several dead fry, so I lowered it slightly. The labs never showed any signs of the spots.


In the bathroom, a 29 gallon with hillstream loaches. Hard to tell if they have spots.


So. What do I do now? Medicating for the scaleless fish (let alone the plants and inverts) will likely kill them anyway. I have 2 Python systems now, one I have been using on the 37 and the yellow lab 55 alone, the other one for the other tanks. I tried salt without success, even at low doses.

As for new fish, two months ago I picked up the hoplos, some hillstream loaches, and the panda garra from Wetspot. They were all in QT for a month before I moved the hillstreams to my hillstream tank, the garra in the 20 with the longfins (it was temporary until all this started), and the hoplos in a spare 29, which was torn down and they were moved to the 90. In that group I lost one garra in QT, and one hillstream in the hillstream tank.

Am I even looking at velvet here? If they weren't yellow I'd be sure they were ich.

Or, worse thought, if they are ich, would white appear as yellow on a yellowy fish? But that doesn't explain the yellow dots on the brown female BN.

[bekateen]

Alas, I don't have much experience with treating disease successfully, so I have no advice to offer. But your story is sad for the lost fish and frightening for the remaining fish, so you have my sincere sympathy and condolences.

Eric

[Taratron]

Google has a million articles that contradict. But searching on PC here, it might be Chilodonella. Oh joy. But is that a disease that usually only infects catfish? The leleupi didn't show any signs, but then again it could have been aggression that did them in.

[Kostas]

Treat with metronidazole in the food if they eat or in the water if they don't. It's a fast, safe and effective cure for protozoan infections. You don't have to know if it's velvet or chilonodella, treatment is the same as they are both protozoan

[Taratron]

On hand right now I have Mala Green, Meth blue, Paraguard and Prazipro. I can order the metro but will any of the others work for the day or two?

[TwoTankAmin]

Assuming you have an issue which is velvet, my understanding is one treats velvet with the same meds as one uses to treat ich. Here is a basic blurb on this disease from animalworld.com:

Symptoms: Peppery coating giving a yellow to light brown "dust" on body, clamped fins, respiratory distress (breathing hard as seen as frequent or quick gill movements), cloudiness of eyes, and glancing off decor or substrate, possible weight loss.

Velvet disease in freshwater fish is caused by either Oodinium pilularis or Oodinium limneticum, which are parasitic skin flagellates. This parasite swims in the aquarium until it finds a fish host and adheres to it.

In Oodinium pilularis (as well as with "Ich" Ichthyophthirius multifiliis) it eats into the cells of the epithelial layer of the skin and fins as well as through the mucous membrane in the mouth. The mature parasite then leaves the host and drops to the bottom of the aquarium or plants. It then forms a cyst that divides, forming between 34 - 64 new cells, then bursts freeing the new cells into the aquarium to find a fish host.
Oodinium limneticum is similar, but attacks the fish’s skin and fins rather than burrowing under the epithelial layer, so it is localized right on the surface. It also multiplies on the host rather than at the bottom of the aquarium or on the plants.

This disease has the appearance of a golden or brownish dust over the fins and body. The fish may show signs of irritation, like glancing off aquarium decor, shortage of breath (fish-wise), and clamping of the fins. The gills are usually the first thing affected. Velvet affects different species in different ways. Danios seem to be the most susceptible, but often show no discomfort. This disease is highly contagious and fatal.

They can be treated either in the separate or in the main tan. A good treatment is with copper sulphate at 0.2 mg per liter (0.2 ppm) to be repeated once in a few days if necessary. Aquarisol is one medication of this sort that is usually readily available at pet stores. Acriflavine (trypaflavine) may be used instead at 0.2% solution (1 ml per liter). There are things to be aware of with each of these treatments however. Acriflavine can possibly sterilize fish and copper can lead to poisoning, so the water should be gradually changed after a cure has been effected.

I have also located a study which deals with this subject which should be helpful.. See page 686 and especially Table 2 in this paper:

Ectoparasitic Diseases in Freshwater Ornamental Fish and Their Treatments
C.Erkin Koyuncu - Department of Aquaculture, Faculty of Fisheries - Mersin University TURKEY
Erol Tokşen - Department of Aquaculture, Faculty of Fisheries -Ege University TURKEY
http://eprints.ibu.edu.ba/617/1/issd201 ... 3-p688.pdf

I have only had to deal with ich, and then only twice in 15 years, I have never had to treat velvet.

[Taratron]

I thought velvet too, till I saw the photos here: http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... hp?t=40853
The first post has a fish that looks like mine does right now.

Just saw a few fry in the 20 with a spot or two each. Upping the temp, it's at 83 now.

[TwoTankAmin]

If you accept Barbie's diagnosis in that thread, then it is velvet aka Oodinium.

ProForm-C is the preeminent broad spectrum malachite green & formalin treatment. It is formulated differently than any other malachite green & formalin mix. Malachite green and formalin are two drugs that are more effective in combination than if used individually..........
The Benefits of ProForm-C:
The safest and most effective treatment for the control of diseases caused by Ichthyophthirius (ich), Costia, Trichodina, Chilodonella, Oodinium and fungal infections.

from http://www.mystickoi.com/ProForm-C-Koi- ... c-155.html

QuickCure (now under the Mrdel label) contains the same ingredients.

[Taratron]

Do I treat at half dose? Everything on it says malachite green is toxic to plecos.

[TwoTankAmin]

I realize a source from 2005 is 10 years old. But if you check out the Catfish Atlas: Volume 1 by Hans Georg-Evers and Ingo Seidel, you will see on pages 238 - 244, the section on Oodinum, they discuss using malachite green on plecos and recommend it for Oodinium. They also mention not using copper or quinine with catfish.

Have a look here https://books.google.com/books?id=iAiNa ... oQ6AEIMDAE

It should be noted that in many countries malachite green is banned for use with fish for human consumption. However, I have yet to see roast pleco on a menu

[Taratron]

Thanks. Metroplex on order, salting slowly and upping the temps. M green kills inverts, right?

If I have a tank I can make just for shrimp, keep it hot and dark, could velvet survive without fish?