pleco breeding tank plans and questions -- Warning Long Post

BK · Post by BK » 16 Feb 2003, 21:55

Hello,

This spring-summer-fall I was thinking of trying to breed a species of pleco. My plan was to buy 10+ plecos (with the hope of having better odds of receiving a number of males and females) of the same species and build a simple river tank for them. I was considering several types of plecos.

I am considering:

L235
L66
L187a
L114
L106
L168
L129
L204
LDA 19 (L129 ???)
Parotocinclus (only ones I an having trouble finding for sale)

The reason I have chosen these fish is that I like then and I have found sources to obtain at least 10 of most of them at a price that is affordable enough so that in the fall (If I don?t have space in my basement or i go with anything larger than the Parotocinclus) I can give them away or sell them in my local area and break even (assuming I don?t loose more than 2-3 of them). i reallize my chances of getting any of them to breed are pretty slim but i think it would be a good learning experience and i really wouldn't have much to loose if they don't breed.

As a tank I have several options depending on the size of the species I choose to try. I have several smaller unused glass tanks, a source of free food grade 30 and 50 gallon barrels that could be used whole or cut in half, rubber maid containers, or I could build an 8ft long, 6ft wide, and two foot tall breeding tank out of ply wood with 2x4 bracing and epoxy paint (or using a pond liner) that would be driven by a modified pool filter simulating a small river/stream.

Here is a simplified diagram of the plywood tank

My questions are:

What is the average breeding size of the above species so that I can make sure to get fish at or near breeding age of whatever ones i get?

Are there any that you more experienced pleco keepers would recommend?

what type of tank do you think would work better?

Sorry for the long post and thanks for any advice and comments,

BK

Cartman · Post by **Cartman** » 17 Feb 2003, 14:37

Well that's quite a broad spectrum of plecos you're looking at. So the size and aggression should definitely be taken into account when looking into a breeding setup. If this is your first breeding, I'd say drop L114 from your list as these are not a good pleco to start w/ as they can be highly aggressive. I've also never seen a report of anyone breeding L235 so you may want to look into something a little easier to breed. I'd probaly try to stay w/ one of the smaller species as they're easier to house and they won't eat you out of house and home. Personally I'm looking into getting LDA19 and L129 also (from http://www.frybabies.com , right?). My plans are rough right now but herer's what I'm thinking. I'd like 7 of either to put into a 33 long (48"x13"x12") or a 40 breeder (36"x18"x16"). Getting 7 should assure you of something like 95% of getting both sexes (if I remember correctly). Filtration will be a Mid-sized powerhead w/ prefilter sponge and venturi and either a Fluval 204 or an Aquaclear 500. Who knows I may add a 40-gallon sponge to the mix too. I have some fine grade sand I'll spread about a 1/2" deep accross the bottom of the tank. I also will be putting a thin strip of foam under the tank to keep the bottom from losing heat (I like the stuff glass get wrapped in at stores). Now whether or not I use lights and plants probably won't be decided till I see how they act in QT, which I'll do for a month or so. But most likely I'll bypass plants and lights and use only drfitwood, slate and ceramic caves in the tank.

I know this isn't exactly what you asked but it's what I'm thinking

later

btw...I just got your email so I'll get back to you shortly, sorry for the delay.

Post by **Shane** » 17 Feb 2003, 18:10

BK,
What other loricariids have you spawned? Unless you have extensive experience with some of the easier spp. (e.g. Ancistrus, Rineloricaria, etc) I would not suggest moving on to more difficult spp. You will find yourself disappointed and, if you do get a spawn, probably will not be able to raise the fry.
Here is how I would rank the fish you listed.
Advanced (by advanced I mean appropriate for a hobbyists that has already spawned 2-3 Ancistrus spp. Rineloricaria, Farlowella, and Sturisoma)
Parotocinclus
L 66 (a good choice for an advanced breeder)
L 168 (I am working with L 52. Erwin Scraml says they are easy to spawn, but I have not had any luck yet)
L 129 (I have not seen a spawning report, but they should not be too tough)
L 204
LDA 19 Are you sure you can get these? I believe that only four or so specimens have ever been imported and I think Erwin has them all. Are they starting to come in in any numbers?
Expert
L 235 (I am buying a group of these today)
L 187a (I only know of chance spawns. I have never seen anyone spawn a Chaetostoma on purpose)
L 106 (I have five of these in a 40 gal. They show no sexual dimorphism or desire to spawn after 4 months)

Master
L 114

-Shane

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 17 Feb 2003, 20:07

Hi!

The L114 really makes me wonder. When i read the article by I.Seidel (inet presentation) i think he mentions that they get sexually active at quite small sizes (~20 cm if i remember right) and breed in ole Ancistrus style fashion...also this is such a widely spread species that they must be very productive given the right water conditions. Mine is still quite small at ~8 cm but is the interspecies agression really this awfull? I wonder if it can be more than with my 2 big Bruno L77 as they make the water boil at times. And a 2.40 Meter tank sounds reasonable for a pair doesnt it? (Im just a noob as ive never spawned anything but Ancistrus sp.) Just curious...

BK · Post by BK » 18 Feb 2003, 00:33

Thanks for the replies and suggestions,

Shane, I realize that my chance of successfully spawning any of the species I have mentioned is unlikely and that I should probably start with an easier species. I am not counting on being successful; I would merely like to try it for the experience of keeping the fish and having an enjoyable project this summer. iam basically getting some fish and instead of puting them in a show tank i am putting them in a tank more suitable for breeding.

A factor I have to take into consideration is that in my area any thing other than common plecos are hard to find. The stores act like they want to special order you fish but never follow through, do to what I feel is laziness.

When I tried to order several expensive plecos for my 120 gallon last fall I spoke to about six different stores and only one called me back. Personally I wouldn?t even trust some of the inept ansd undedr trained people who work at these stores with specialy ordered fish. I have had better luck with fish I have bought in Florida and hauled back to Wisconsin in a cooler than ones from local stores.

When I can find the easier to spawn species you mentioned they are hard to find (especially in numbers greater that 2 or 3), too small to breed yet, or cost almost as much (often more) than some of the less expensive species I mentioned in my first post. For an example common rineloricaria are only available at one store on rare occasions and cost $12-$15 apiece and common ancistrus are usually very small (babies) and often run $17. Since I pretty much have to order all my plecos through mail order and online suppliers it doesn?t make much sense to me to spend $30-$40 on shipping for $25 of fish that I don?t like as much as ones that cost a littler more. If I could've found descent sized common ancistrus (not albino) at a local store for under $10 dollars I probably would've tried them already.

what level of difficulty would you assign LDA25?

Cartman, how much flow (gph) were you planning in your tank? And what color sand are you planning to use? i do have a 29 gallon available and can get a 40 breeder for $60.

thanks for putting up with another long winded post,

BK

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 18 Feb 2003, 01:31

hi!

It really makes me wonder about your lfss...i wouldnt let a deal of at least 300 euro get by me if i owned i shop even if its in the woods...

You should try to get some common breedable fish via the forum...heatpack a cuple of bucks on the packet and youll have some healthy inexpensive fish...just an idea...i sell my common Ancistrus fry private for 1 euro at 3-4 cm cauz the shops dont give me anything for them...

Post by **Shane** » 18 Feb 2003, 01:56

BK,
It has been some years since I lived in the States, but those prices seem crazy to me. When I lived in Virginia I had the same problem as Caol_ila because after a few months I had filled all the local stores. I eventually had to start shipping Ancistrus fry to Florida and was only making a dollar for each one (I was shipping 300 per month out of three spawning pairs). Given the numbers I shipped, I sometimes wonder what percentage of Ancistrus in the US are descendents of those pairs I had.
You can take my advice on which fish to start with or leave it. If you do get a spawn you will find out what most do and that is that raising the fry is the tough part. This is why you will need the experience that comes with killing or stunting a few dozen (to be conservative) Ancistrus fry to get your techniques down.
If your LFSs are not helpful (and I have had the same problems) you can always order on line.
I think you will have a really fun summer if you get some Ancistrus up and spawning. I would suggest trying 2-3 spp. for fun and to get some varied experience.
There is an article on spawning LDA 25 on the site in Shane's World. Also, if you can track it down, I did an article in the August 2002 issue of TFH that was an introduction to spawning the loricariids. I think you will find it helpful.
-Shane

Cartman · Post by **Cartman** » 18 Feb 2003, 03:36

BK- Turnover will be at least 10x's an hour probably closer to 15x's. I'll also do at least weekly water changes w/ R/O. As far as what you go with and why, it's up to you but if breeding is your ultimate goal I'd try some Ancistrus 1st. You're in central WI?, but if you ever make it towards Milwaukee I've heard glowing reviews about Hoffers and the fact that it's as big as a chain store. Also the Milwaukee Aquarium Society holds their meetings there, so you could kill 2 birds w/ one stone, and meet some of their local breeders and scout Hoffers. I'll email you their contact info shortly. If you make it over to MN ever, I can set up for you to meet a few of our more acomplished breeders and pick up some of their brood at greatly reduced prices. Otherwise I can let you know which LFS' has what.

later
Andy

btw...It'll probably be tomorrow before I get you the contact info. I'll PM you.

BK · Post by BK » 18 Feb 2003, 06:39

I respect all your opinions, experience, and knowledge on the subject.

It amazes me that the prices are the way they are by me too. One pet store was even trying to sell me some common sailfins for $80

. Most prices aren't that bad but some are disproportionately high. The one place locally that I could probably get ancistrus only has albino ones and they were selling them for $17 dollars and besides the high price I would rather not have albinos. There was a pet store by me that carried a few white seem ancistrus that someone local was breeding at a decent price for a short while about a year ago (when I wasn?t looking for them) but they stopped showing up around august and that store closed around thanks giving. The only good thing about the bad pet stores around me is that i don't need to feel any guilt about not supporting my LFS by ordering supplies and fish from online vendors like i would if i had a decent LFS. All of the good ones have closed within the last 4-5 years.

Cartman what area of Minnesota do you live in?

I have attended several fish auctions of the green bay aquarium society but even at the auction the common ancistrus seem to command a premium price.

On your suggestion I will probably try and locate some ancistrus as you recommend. My concerns on getting them online are the time it would take me to grow out the small ancistrus (commonly offered online) until they were of breeding size. What size is breeding size for most ancistrus spp. and how fast do they usually grow?

The one "pleco" besides common ones, clowns, and ottocinclus that are readily available at reasonable prices are Farlowella. My favorite of the store has tons of them, most quite large, for $2 if I remember correctly. If I can't locate any ancistrus locally in the next several months do you think this would be a good one to try out first? As I understand it they come from slower moving waters and like plants and wood to hide in, is this correct? How big of a tank would be recommended for 3-5 of them. My advantage to trying these fish is that I could buy them right away instead of waiting till we get better fish shipping weather for the ancistrus.

Thanks for the help,

BK

Cartman · Post by **Cartman** » 19 Feb 2003, 03:02

BK wrote:Cartman what area of Minnesota do you live in?

You a golf Fan? You know where last years PGA was held? I live a few miles from Hazeltine, in the Southwestern suburbs of Mpls/St. Paul. I'm one of those aweful suburban commuters.

expect a pm shortly.

Andy