Filters have crashed!?

gex18 · Post by **gex18** » 24 Feb 2005, 15:34

I have a recentley setup 60 litre setup for breeding L260 queen arabesques. It contains a fluval 3 plus filter, eheim 2008 filter and a hagen aquaclear 802 powerhead. A mature sponge was added to the eheim and mature water from an established system was added also (this made 100% of water added). i added one queen arabesque after a week as water tests were good and 3 more after a fortnight, however the original one is now sitting in the middle fo the tank fully exposed and his eyes are sunken in. All the others have vibrant colouration, are bigger and more alert (they hide in the caves all day), as they were from a different source. So just to check, i tested the water today and these are the results; ammonia 0.1 mg/l, No2 3.0 mg/l, No3 110 mg/l and ph 7.0. Since these were done i have done a 40% water change with RO water and will cut of feeding for a few days until conditions continue to improve. What do you guys reckon, think the 3 healthy specimens will pull through and what about the ill one?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 24 Feb 2005, 15:36

If you manage to get the water back to sane levels of nitrate and no nitrite or ammonia, then you should be able to save all four with a bit of luck.

Of course, 40% water change only removes 40% of 110 NO3, so you still have 60-70 ppm leftover, which is still quite high, so you'd better continue changing water and keep checking the level. [Not saying you should change it immediately, but every day or twice daily perhaps].

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Mats

Tom2600 · Post by **Tom2600** » 24 Feb 2005, 20:49

The L260 out in the open sounds in a bad way. 1) sunken eyes is often a sign of a more long term problem. 2) L260 are very shy.

As has been said, frequent water changes. I would also cut back on the feeding. I would also advise placing some polyfilter in the tank to help remove the excessive pollutants.

gex18 · Post by **gex18** » 25 Feb 2005, 09:35

The L260 with sunken eyes also has a very hollow stomach and it isn now lying on its back, so i think i have lost the fight with that one

! The other 3 are 'fatter' and stay in their caves all day. I have ceased feeding, will resume tommorrow after water tests. Will perform daily water changes of 25% with dechlorinated tapwater. Last night i bought a new eheim ecco 2236 external filter, and have added some mature media from my established discus setup. My total filtration for the 60 litre tank is now as follows;
Fluval 3 plus internal filter
Eheim 2008 internal filter
Hagen aquaclear 802 powerhead (800-1200 L/hour)
Eheim ecco 2236 external filter.
How many L260sill safe in the setup with this level of filtration?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 25 Feb 2005, 10:16

Ok, I'll change my mind on the one with the hollow belly...

It's really hard to say what you can sustain in a system. The only way to really tell is to do constant monitoring of the water once the tank is matured. Before it's matured, the Nitrate will sky-rocket (as you've just seen). Once you've got it to the mature state, you should be able to keep an eye on the level. As long as it stays low, you're fine. If it's low just before you change your water (say once a week), then you can add more fish and it's still going to be safe.

It's very hard to say how your multi-filter setup will work together, but it's obviously better than a single filter [it's just hard to calculate the effect of multiple filters, as 1 + 1 isn't necessarily equal to 2 in this scenario].

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Mats

gex18 · Post by **gex18** » 26 Feb 2005, 17:21

Right, i am performing daily water changes of 50% while adding a bacterial starter culture daily. However, i lost the poorly L260 yesterday and the other 3 just dont seem interested in food at all. Have tried (well rinsed) cockles, hikari sinking wafers and tetra prima today but they dont bother at all. Could it be because of the poor water conditions? What sort of time should i feed them and should i turn the filters off while i attempt to feed (as it just gets blown around otherwise?). BTW howlong does it take for the nitrite peak to recede (as it is still reading over 100mg/l)! (Please help as i think the others will die if they dont eat soon and they cot Â£150 for the 4!)

gex18 · Post by **gex18** » 26 Feb 2005, 17:22

Right, i am performing daily water changes of 50% while adding a bacterial starter culture daily. However, i lost the poorly L260 yesterday and the other 3 just dont seem interested in food at all. Have tried (well rinsed) cockles, hikari sinking wafers and tetra prima today but they dont bother at all. Could it be because of the poor water conditions? What sort of time should i feed them and should i turn the filters off while i attempt to feed (as it just gets blown around otherwise?). BTW howlong does it take for the nitrite peak to recede (as it is still reading over 100mg/l)! (Please help as i think the others will die if they dont eat soon and they cot Â£150 for the 4!)

magnum4 · Post by **magnum4** » 27 Feb 2005, 20:01

I take it your nitrAte test kit max's out at 100mg/l?
Also what level of nitrate comes in from your tap water?

Why buy an bottle of bacteria when you have a seperate mature tank? just trasfere more media from the other tanks filters.

Bottled bacteria in most cases is in stasis in the bottle and take 48 hours plus to become effective, so if your doing 50% water changes daily its not helping atall.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 28 Feb 2005, 10:33

Assuming that your discus tank is healthy and low nitrate, I presume taking 30l per day out of that tank would only be slightly more bother than taking 30L from the tap. If you use "used water", you'll extract some bacteria, and you'll have reasonably good water for the small tank.

It's a better place to get bacteria than the shop.

My fingers are crossed that you keep them going nicely.

--
Mats

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 28 Feb 2005, 11:38

howlong does it take for the nitrite peak to recede (as it is still reading over 100mg/l)!

i'm surprised your fish aren't dead with that much nitrite.

do not feed them for a week. they'll be fine. it's the feeding that's causing the surge in nitrite.

change 50% of the water if you get any reading of nitrite at all.

good luck.

in future, it's probably not a good idea to cycle a tank with Â£150 worth of fish!!!

try Â£10 worth of guppies. it's a lot cheaper that way!

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 28 Feb 2005, 11:47

racoll wrote:
howlong does it take for the nitrite peak to recede (as it is still reading over 100mg/l)!
i'm surprised your fish aren't dead with that much nitrite.

I'm pretty sure that's a typo, nitrite at 100ppm would be lethal to the most hardy fish in the world. I'd be surprised if it wasn't meant to say "100 mg/l" of nitrate rather than nitrite...

It will take a couple of weeks if left alone. But of course, you're changing water (and have to, as your fish will probably not survive the shock of high nitrate for that long), so it may take longer.

One idea would be to move your QA's to another tank, and stick some other fish in the small tank until it's established the culture in the filters, and then move the QA's back. I'm sure your LFS may be able to oblige to keep your QA's and sell you some hardy fish to keep in the tank for the time being. That may be the best solution...

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Mats

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 28 Feb 2005, 13:29

i thought it was probably a typo too Mats, but if they haven't been eating, and food is rotting, then nitrite could account for the dead fish......

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 28 Feb 2005, 13:41

racoll wrote:i thought it was probably a typo too Mats, but if they haven't been eating, and food is rotting, then nitrite could account for the dead fish......

The original post says NO2 = 3.0 ppm. So there's certainly (or at least WAS) some nitrite in the water too (and 3ppm is not good for any sensitive fish, probably OK with guppy [wild caught ones at least, not the farm-raised "wimps" that you get in most shops]). Just not 100ppm, as that would probably kill just about anything but algae...

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Mats

gex18 · Post by **gex18** » 01 Mar 2005, 09:19

Yeah it was a 'typo'! The nitrate was 100mg/l and nitrite was 3.0mg/l, have been perfrorming daily 25% water changes with 1/2 ro and 1/2 mature water and the nitrite is being kept under control, while the nitrate is 20 mg/l now! 1 more of the QAs is looking so good (hollow belly, sunken eyes etc), however i put a slice of courgette in the tank last night and when lights weent out, all 3 were munching away on it. Is it detrimantal to feed veggies to the for a prolonged period (say 2 weeks) as i understand they are primarily carnivores?

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 01 Mar 2005, 10:10

well it sounds like you're doing everything right with the waster changes.

carnivorous fish such as Hypancistrus will have a much shorter gut than say a vegetarian like a Farlowella.

meaty food doesn't need to have as long a transit time, due to the ease that nutrition is extracted from it.

this could mean that the QA's aren't going to gain much nutrition from veg.

i would give them a little bit every week or so, as part of a balanced diet though.

How long have they been in there now?

were they plump and healthy when you got them?

were they feeding at the shop you got them from?

how long were they at the shop for?

i would still cut down feeding to an absolute minimum (unless they haven't fed since import, if so, you could have big problems)

any uneaten food that you don't notice (and siphon out) will have a massive impact on the water quality in a cycling tank.

forget the rest of the foods for now. try frozen bloodworm. not many fish can resist this.

don't turn off the powerhead, the worms will collect somewhere, and the fish will get used to where that is.

i hope they get better.

Humboldtfisher · Post by **Humboldtfisher** » 01 Mar 2005, 22:09

Why not try some Bio-Spira? That should quickly re-establish the beneficial bacteria. The stuff is pretty amazing. I recently completed the cycling of a partially cycled tank where two fish had died during cycling - with low ammonia and high nitrites, a 1 oz packet added into the bio-pads cycled the tank in two days.

I read a lot about the product on the cichlid-forum and no one had it local, but was easy to order over the Internet from the FishStore in TN.

gex18 · Post by **gex18** » 02 Mar 2005, 10:20

I am adding courgette as i was told it is a lot less detrimental on water quality than frozen foods? Am i wrong to assume this? Will add bloodworm today, should i do this just befor lights out or during the day? Fish were fine when i got them look very well fed. Never saw them eat at the store. They were captive bred somewhere in nottinghamshire as the guy at the LFS attended a show and got then espescially for me. Were in the shops tanks for 4 days.

colin324 · Post by **colin324** » 03 Mar 2005, 13:46

I found some nitrazorb granules in a cloth bag that I fitted into my fulval 3 instead of the carbon filter. It absorbs ammonia, nitrates and nitrites really quickly, and is reusable. When the levels no longer decrease, you place it in salty water and then dry, ready to use again (reverse osmosis principle like a water softener). It saved my fish in a new tank that refused to start. I had 50% old water, but had changed to under-gravel filtration from a bio-filter system. I added the fluval 3 to give me something to put the granule bag into that would force the water through it. Once the levels were down to a sensible level, they stayed there, took about 4 days.

If I can find name of it, I will post it. Wasn't cheap at Â£8, but it is reusable, and a lot cheaper than replacing the plecs, cats and clowns.

Good luck

colin324 · Post by **colin324** » 03 Mar 2005, 13:48

Oh, I forgot to add, I found them at Pet Smart

They are in a screw lidded container with the other treatments. It was a last ditch attempt to save the tank that worked really well. Once they are dry you can store it until next needed.

Using this method, no water changes were needed, allowing it to mature quickly and the filtration to colonise.

Colin

Tom2600 · Post by **Tom2600** » 04 Mar 2005, 01:21

Gex18,

L260s are very shy fish by nature and will hardly ever come out unless the lights are out.

I have had 6 juvenilles for approx. 6 months and I have never seen them feed. I just put a small amount of food in the tank after lights out and by morning, most/if not all is gone.

The trick with L260s is LOTS of oxygenation. I have three airstones running in my 28 gal tank. It also has an external filter and an internal box filter to polish the water. These fish need good quality water but are not too picky about water paramters in the sense of pH etc.

I would seriously cut down on feeding. Its a common mistake to overfeed plecs in the first few weeks because naturally you don't see any sign of feeding so feed more in the hope of encouraging them. Quite the opposite really, concentrate on getting your water quality 100%. I would use 50% mature tank water and 50% tap water, obviously dechlorinated. Once the water is right the plecs will feed. The more you mess with the tank the more stressed they will become. IMO concentrate on water changes and cut back on the feeding big time. I feed a different food each night. Tetra prima one night, Bloodworm the next, Courgette the next, brine shrimp the next and then I will leave a night or two without any food and then repeat. It seems to be working.

Good luck.