Sump tank filtering system for a 5ft tank ?

[Star-flog]

Hi,

Anyone has any experience setting up a sump tank filtering system? whether it is suitable for Pleco tank and what are the benefits ?

For 5ft tank with water volume of 425L/112G, whether should I opt for Eheim external filter OR sump filtering system ?

Thank you.

[Durlänger]

I would take the Eheim external, that think`s are the best
But what means sump, is there another word for

[MatsP]

A sump-filter is where you basicly use a different tank (underneath) the actual tank as a filter solution. I'm not sure exactly how this works, what media is used etc, but it's a pretty old method (but quite efficient) of filtering primarily big tanks, usually using a drilled tank with an overflow pipe that leads to the sump and the sump having an "outlet pump" to move the water back to the tank on top.

It's certainly less hassle to use a "ready made" external filter. And money-wise, I don't think there's a lot to be gained unless you have some spare tanks and pumps sitting around not being used. But I could be wrong here.

--
Mats

[bronzefry]

A sump is an extra tank for added water volume used in conjunction with a "wet-dry filtration system." There are so many methods of doing this. Each manufacturer claims to have the best system, but each one just gets more expensive than the next. It's mostly an open filtration method, meaning it can overflow very easily. Eheim has one that's enclosed, but I'm not sure it's a true "sump." The Marineland BioWheel comes close to the wet/dry method, but you don't use a sump unless you buy their Tidalpool filter. All of these filters aim for extremely high biological filtration.

An advantage to this kind of open system, when it uses a sump(an extra tank) is adding water volume. As an example, if you had a 75 gallon tank with a 25 gallon sump, you'd "technically" have 100 gallons worth of water. But, this isn't really the case-it's probably more like 85-90 gallons. The sumps I've seen most recently are made of acrylic.(Although I have a friend that used a Rubbermaid container.) Some have skimmers built in. They can use either the plastic balls or a shredded material to bring about the biological filtration. Some use drip trays. Then there are Refugiums, which are different kinds of sump tanks meant to support life, such as plants or fish that are being harassed.

After you figure all of that out...should you drill your tank or buy an overflow? Then, there's all the plumbing. I think the Marineland unit comes complete. I haven't found another one that does. If anybody knows of a foolproof sump method out there, I'm all ears! I love the concept. I'd love nothing more than to have a freshwater Refugium.

[djw66]

A sump-filter is where you basicly use a different tank (underneath) the actual tank as a filter solution. I'm not sure exactly how this works, what media is used etc, but it's a pretty old method (but quite efficient) of filtering primarily big tanks, usually using a drilled tank with an overflow pipe that leads to the sump and the sump having an "outlet pump" to move the water back to the tank on top.

It's certainly less hassle to use a "ready made" external filter. And money-wise, I don't think there's a lot to be gained unless you have some spare tanks and pumps sitting around not being used. But I could be wrong here.

--
Mats

Mats, It seems like you are aiming toward a more natural filtration method with a sump. You could make your own easily. On my largest freshwater tank (8x3x3) I have a 180-gallon underneath that is on reverse daylight. Both aquariums are heavily planted Amano-style, thus, the 180's lights come on after the mains go off.

The benifits of a system like this is it helps keep the ph and O2 levels more steady and exports more dissolved waste. You can hide equipment like heaters, etc. in there. Also, it adds to the total water volume of the system. I also attach four canister filters (Fluval) with varied media - two on the main and two on the sump. A pre-filter (I use DLS on some tanks, filter floss in others) is needed to keep larger debris out of your pumps.

To change water, which I do every ten days on this sytem, I shut down the circulation pumps, close the valves, and drain the sump by 2/3rds. Refill and your done, easy.

You could buy a tank and plumb it yourself, or buy a ready-made system for minimum hassle. Reef tank folks (of which I am one) have prodigious wares designed to do what you seem to be looking at. I use Creative Plastic Research (cprusa.com) overflows (no drilling), and several of their hang-on and sump-style refugiums on my tanks, both fresh and marine. If you need plumbing, place to go is Aquatic Eco-System, Inc (aquaticeco.com). It is the end-all, be-all of things aquatic. Ask them what you are trying to do, and they will be happy to help you with plumbing or whatever.

Good luck with your efforts,
Dave

[Star-flog]

A sump is an extra tank for added water volume used in conjunction with a "wet-dry filtration system." There are so many methods of doing this. Each manufacturer claims to have the best system, but each one just gets more expensive than the next. It's mostly an open filtration method, meaning it can overflow very easily. Eheim has one that's enclosed, but I'm not sure it's a true "sump." The Marineland BioWheel comes close to the wet/dry method, but you don't use a sump unless you buy their Tidalpool filter. All of these filters aim for extremely high biological filtration.

An advantage to this kind of open system, when it uses a sump(an extra tank) is adding water volume. As an example, if you had a 75 gallon tank with a 25 gallon sump, you'd "technically" have 100 gallons worth of water. But, this isn't really the case-it's probably more like 85-90 gallons. The sumps I've seen most recently are made of acrylic.(Although I have a friend that used a Rubbermaid container.) Some have skimmers built in. They can use either the plastic balls or a shredded material to bring about the biological filtration. Some use drip trays. Then there are Refugiums, which are different kinds of sump tanks meant to support life, such as plants or fish that are being harassed.

After you figure all of that out...should you drill your tank or buy an overflow? Then, there's all the plumbing. I think the Marineland unit comes complete. I haven't found another one that does. If anybody knows of a foolproof sump method out there, I'm all ears! I love the concept. I'd love nothing more than to have a freshwater Refugium.

Hi Bronzefry, much appreciated to your comments, I learnt something today.
While actively searching for more information on this subject and come across this article on the net. This link do provide some very useful information http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-01/gt/. Altogether they're 3 parts, have a look....

The article highlighted the benefits include:

· Increasing total water volume,
· Providing a place for equipment and filtration,
· Keeping the surface of the water free of contaminates,
· Aerating the water,
· Simplifying water changes, and
· Keeping the water level stable in the display tank.

Not a bad system to consider if the inital cost is not too high...

[bronzefry]

djw,
I've been eyeing CPR's products quite amorously. If I had a dream tank, it would be the size of yours, with that kind of filtration. I'd love to see some photos, if you can? Please? I'm also wondering how the plumbing works. Sometimes I can make these things so complicated in my mind when it isn't as bad as I think. I am worried about spills, since it's open, though. What's your experience been, if you don't mind me asking? It seems these filters are primarily marketed to saltwater folks. I asked at a show once and the rep of one company told me it was a useless filter for me. That's when I knew it would be of use to me!

[djw66]

djw,
I've been eyeing CPR's products quite amorously. If I had a dream tank, it would be the size of yours, with that kind of filtration. I'd love to see some photos, if you can? Please? I'm also wondering how the plumbing works. Sometimes I can make these things so complicated in my mind when it isn't as bad as I think. I am worried about spills, since it's open, though. What's your experience been, if you don't mind me asking? It seems these filters are primarily marketed to saltwater folks. I asked at a show once and the rep of one company told me it was a useless filter for me. That's when I knew it would be of use to me!

Bronzefry,

I'd photograph if I could, but I don't even have a camera here.

Its not difficult at all. I have a CPR overflow hanging on the back of the large tank. Gravity takes it to the pre-filter (floss) then to the undertank, where two fluvals are attached. The water flows right-to-left through the plants into a submersable pump to be returned to the main tank. I have valves below the overflow and in front (right side of the return pump. I have everything plugged into a GFI circuit for safety's sake.

The system moves the tank volume over six times an hour.

This is my system simplified. It ain't rocket science, though many may imply it. Its due to the enormous variety of equipment, which tends to make the endeavor more befuddling than ever. Like I said above, go to aquaticeco.com, email them what you want to do, and they will tell you exactly what you do and don't need.

What marketers don't tell you is that a good deal of saltwater equipment translates quite well to freshwater. For instance, a Protein Skimmer (foam fractioner) doesn't take out as much goop as it does in marine, but it does work in freshwater, and, when properly tuned, can add much dissolved oxygen to your water.

On freshwater, I use the hang-on refugiums to grow out fry or place an injured fish in. I find the fry grow better in refugiums than in seperate tanks. I have an idea its small creatures that they consume that give them a start, but don't really know why.

Spills can happen, but get less and less as you become more adept at using the system. I've been using the sump system for about eight years, and I don't remember my last spill. A float valve can be installed to shut off the pumps when the water either drops quickly or gets too high. There is enough literature and equipment that you should never have your tanks drain out on the floor

I don't use wet-dry filtration, and haven't for many years. Why? Because they dump nitrate back into your water. In freshwater, its traumatic and often dangerous for fish, for marine, it is often fatal to inverts and fish. Its the main cause of death of anenomes. Water changes dilute the nitrate, but the bacteria in a wet-dry is so efficient at breaking down ammonia and nitrite into nitrate, it just pours it right back in.

Excuse the rant, folks

Dave

[bronzefry]

Awesome, Dave! Extremely helpful. I wouldn't try it on a tank less than 100 gallons. I also suspected that nitrates would wind up back in the tank and I see that you have canister filtration, too. This makes sense. I am thinking, however, of using a Refugium setup for fry. This way, there's no shock with the water. I've seen the smaller ones that would work well for a 75 gallon tank. I think that would be a good investment for me. I was going to switch over my 29 gal.tank to a river tank. Suddenly, that project has turned into a small fishroom.
bronzefry

[Durlänger]

Is it a good idear to put "sump-plant`s" (sword plant`s or papyrus for example) over the waterline in such a sump-filter
They could take the Nitrat of the water or

What do you think

[MatsP]

Here's the ways I know of removing nitrate:
1. Remove water with dissolved nitrate. Pretty obvious, if there is nitrate in the water and you replace it with "no nitrate" water, you're lowering the nitrate concentration.

2. Plants will use nitrate to make protein for growing.

However, to Durlängers comment, it doesn't really matter if the plants are growing above or below the water-line. It also doesn't matter much what plants they are, but fast growing plants will use up more nitrate and than slow growing. Just don't leave dead bits of plant matter in the tank, as that adds to the nitrate levels again.

3. There are anaerob bacteria that use nitrate to produce nitrogen gas. Unfortunately, you need a anaerob environment for these bacteria to do their job, and a healthy aquarium environment should never be anaerob [1].

4. Ion-exchange filters. That's OK if you don't mind swapping the nitrate for salt (Sodium Chloride). Unfortunately, most freshwater living fish, and many catfish in particular, aren't happy about salt in the water, so unless you remove the salt by water changes, you'll end up with fish that are unhappy...

5. Don't feed the fish, nitrate in the water is a byproduct of the fish's metabolism that produce ammonia, which is eventually converted to nitrate. If the fish has no food, it's metabolic rate will slow down and less nitrate will be produced. [That's not really a removal process]


[1] Anaerob means "without oxygen". In your average aquaria, the aim is to get as much oxygen in the water as possible...

--
Mats

[Barbie]

While nitrate at high levels are an indicator of a problem with your maintenance schedule, ammonia or nitrite at ANY level are a huge problem. A filter so efficient at removing them that it does it instantly is what most people strive for. A wet/dry filter isn't going to "cause" more nitrate than any other filter dealing with the same water volume and feeding levels, IME. You just have the additional benefit of added water volume, as was previously mentioned, and maximum oxygenation and biological filtration, that's also highly customizable. It's hard to go wrong with sump style filtration if you have a tank that's drilled. If the tank isn't drilled and you're using hang on overflows, well, let's just say that's another story, IMO.

Barbie

[MatsP]

Barbie,

You make a very good point: There's only one place the nitrate would come from, and that is the food added to the tank (or something else added to the tank, like fish that dies, if left in the tank causes detritous nitrate [or whatever you would call it]).

But there's no reason why one kind of filter should cause more (or less) nitrate than any other filter over a longer timespan. On a short term basis (hours or days) you could have a situation where nitrite and ammonia builds up in the tank, but in the long term, those should convert to nitrate. Since ammonia and nitrite are 1:1 converted to nitrate (i.e. one ammonia molecule becomes one nitrate molecule), and ammonia / nitrite are roughly two orders of magnitude (100 times) worse than nitrate, I'd say that any filter that quickly converts ammonia and nitrite into nitrate is the best one to have.

I've explained in a previous post how nitrate gets removed. It's unlikely that any filter would remove any significant amount of ammonia, although it may remove SOME in an anaerob process, but it's a small amount...
--
Mats

[Durlänger]

But there is one thing (between under and over waterline) better I think
Over waterline plant`s grow better with more Nitrat, under waterline plant`s don`t like much/any Nitrat and so over waterline plant`s should be better to put Nitrat to 0

That`s also why gardenplant`s love tankwater

[bronzefry]

You've got a point there, too Durlanger. I think what you are referring to is using the plants inside the sump to soak up the excess nitrates, rather than using another form of chemical media. Just like a pond/plant filter would. Or a Refugium filter would. Please correct me if I've misunderstood. I think djw brought that up when he said:

Mats, It seems like you are aiming toward a more natural filtration method with a sump. You could make your own easily. On my largest freshwater tank (8x3x3) I have a 180-gallon underneath that is on reverse daylight. Both aquariums are heavily planted Amano-style, thus, the 180's lights come on after the mains go off.

Do you use a similar method, Durlanger? If so, I'd like to hear about it and how successful it is.

[djw66]

While nitrate at high levels are an indicator of a problem with your maintenance schedule, ammonia or nitrite at ANY level are a huge problem. A filter so efficient at removing them that it does it instantly is what most people strive for. A wet/dry filter isn't going to "cause" more nitrate than any other filter dealing with the same water volume and feeding levels, IME. You just have the additional benefit of added water volume, as was previously mentioned, and maximum oxygenation and biological filtration, that's also highly customizable. It's hard to go wrong with sump style filtration if you have a tank that's drilled. If the tank isn't drilled and you're using hang on overflows, well, let's just say that's another story, IMO.

Barbie

Barbie, I do drill acrylic tanks, as it doesn't weaken the structure. That is why I use overflows on glass, because it DOES weaken the glass over time if you drill it, and I'd hate to have to replace a large aquarium due to fracture, wouldn't you?

Also, it has been scientifically proven that Nitrasomas and Nitrobacter reduce ammonia and nitrite to nitrate, and no futher. A wet-dry filter is an ideal environment for those bacteria. Thus, wet-drys DO dump nitrate back into your water. I never said they 'cause' anything - its a natural biological process and it has absolutley nothing to do with overfeeding, although overfeeding will accelerate the process. If you had one pampered betta that you fed lightly once a day on an aquarium equipped with a wet-dry, the bacteria would still be very efficiently breaking down the nitrogen cycle to nitrate and putting it into back into your bulk water.

Nitrate's one reason why we all change water regularly, right?

In saltwater, I equip the sump with a plenum to create an anoxic zone so nitrospyra can proliferate and take what's left of the nitrate after the macro algae is through with it and reduce it down to elemental nitrogen. Some freshwater folks use plenums on aquariums with delicate fish, like discus. I don't, because my aquaria are very heavily planted, and the roots can introduce oxegenated water into the low O2 anoxic zone, defeating its purpose.

I agree higher plants do a great job eating nitrate and phosphate. My aim is to keep nitrate as low as possible in ALL my tanks BETWEEN water changes.

For your edification, I change water in aquariums of 220 gallons and under every five days. Over that is every ten. My largest aquarium is a reef tank contaning 720 gallons with a 300 gallon sump.

I keep a light bioload in all my tanks. The 8x3x3 that lives in my living room I mentioned currently has 64 Hyphessobrycon heterorhabdus, a dozen Phenacogrammus interruptus and six each Botia striata and B. morleti. There are a couple three-inch Pekoltia that I see once in a while that have been in here at least three years. If I would add anything, it'd be a group of Hypotopoma gulare.

More than half of the fishes' diet is live. I culture Daphnia pulex and magna in 400-gallon fiberglass vats in my basement fishroom year 'round, wingless fruit flies in five gallon carboys, white worms, Grindle worms, small red worms, and California Black worms, which creep my girlfriend out. I can do a culture of micro worms, rotifers and artemia when needed. I feed thrice daily in small amounts with live, quality prepared and frozen foods. I put in spirolina disks or small vegatable slices in three or four times a week for the mysterious Peckoltias.

Dave

[bronzefry]

Uhhhhmmmm, speaking as your friendly internet architectural consultant....do you have cement floors? That's significant water weight.

I've given thought to culturing live Daphnia, but the entire family creeping out has dampened that one. Frozen food is the limit.

[djw66]

Uhhhhmmmm, speaking as your friendly internet architectural consultant....do you have cement floors? That's significant water weight.

I've given thought to culturing live Daphnia, but the entire family creeping out has dampened that one. Frozen food is the limit.

Bronzefry, I've been a aquarium nut for 35 years. When I had this house built, I had the architect work with a structural engineer on my floors. The basement is reinforced cement and my living room is on a slab. They told me I'd have no problem with the weight, and in six years thus far, I've had none.

My largest tank system is estimated at 6.5 tons (1,020 gallons at 8.5 pounds per gallon, 6 hundred pound large tank, 150 sump, 800 pounds live rock, 600 pounds of substrate. The oak stand took six guys to get it in. Scared me to death initially to put the monster in, but the SE gave me 30 years on the floor.

The worms get my girlfriend. She doesn't mind the daphnia or the bugs

[Star-flog]

You've got a point there, too Durlanger. I think what you are referring to is using the plants inside the sump to soak up the excess nitrates, rather than using another form of chemical media. Just like a pond/plant filter would. Or a Refugium filter would. Please correct me if I've misunderstood. I think djw brought that up when he said:

Mats, It seems like you are aiming toward a more natural filtration method with a sump. You could make your own easily. On my largest freshwater tank (8x3x3) I have a 180-gallon underneath that is on reverse daylight. Both aquariums are heavily planted Amano-style, thus, the 180's lights come on after the mains go off.

Do you use a similar method, Durlanger? If so, I'd like to hear about it and how successful it is.

Putting plants into sump is a good idea and normally you need sufficient lights to keep the plant growing.
The sump is certainly a more natural way of filtering the water than others.

[Durlänger]

Bronzefry as far as I understood you understood me right
I had only thought off that method, but I usually put my old tankwater to over-waterline-plant`s and thay realy like

[kev]

i have a 160gl sump underneath my 270gl stingray tank, all home made with a 2" overflow drain. I have 41"x21" pond sponges in there.

Kev

[coelacanth]

I have a 15 gallon sump on the 60 gallon aquarium in my dining room, two 5 cm side-drilled outlets deal with as much water flow as I could need. Most efficient aerobic filtration method I've used, solid waste is reduced so much I barely ever need to clean the mechanical filter media.
Water changes couldn't be easier, the fish barely notice and I can get it over and done with inside 15 minutes, alternatively using a Python (see past threads) I can really take my time about it if I'm feeling lazy
You can get around the problem of lighting any plants in there by growing something like Philodendron up and out, but watch out, it uses tendrils to support itself as it grows and will work these into wallpaper or anything else it grows against....

[Durlänger]

Found more plant`s for over-water-line-use on German homepage of Dennerle (English version still under constration)
http://www.dennerle.de/pflanzen/Pflanzensuche.asp
In the "DENNERLE Pflanzennummer: (z.B. A 04)" line put SU in
and click Suche Starten
after seeing the first side click Weiter and so on...

Thinking of testing that methode after I`m back from Sweden in two months.

[bronzefry]

djw,
Glad you had a structural engineer work with you and warrantee the work. Fantastic! Sounds like you did all the appropriate research prior to installation. I know that scary feeling, even though my tanks are smaller.

[djw66]

djw,
Glad you had a structural engineer work with you and warrantee the work. Fantastic! Sounds like you did all the appropriate research prior to installation. I know that scary feeling, even though my tanks are smaller.

Bronzefry,

Thanks for the kind words. People tend to forget that even a 55-gallon weighs upwards of 700 pounds inclusive.

I'd been planning my home for years, read everything I could get my hands on about concrete, electricity safety, dehumidifiers (much needed in my basement fishroom) and back-up energy sources. I also had the basement waterproofed and sealed - a good investment even without aquariums.

Dave

[djw66]

I have a 15 gallon sump on the 60 gallon aquarium in my dining room, two 5 cm side-drilled outlets deal with as much water flow as I could need. Most efficient aerobic filtration method I've used, solid waste is reduced so much I barely ever need to clean the mechanical filter media.
Water changes couldn't be easier, the fish barely notice and I can get it over and done with inside 15 minutes, alternatively using a Python (see past threads) I can really take my time about it if I'm feeling lazy
You can get around the problem of lighting any plants in there by growing something like Philodendron up and out, but watch out, it uses tendrils to support itself as it grows and will work these into wallpaper or anything else it grows against....

coelancanth,

An added plus to the sump system using live plants - freshwater or macroalgae in marine - is that when you trim them, you are removing whatever nitrogenous waste the plants have metabolized out of your tank.

I use the clippings to compost.

Ever curious, what do you keep in the 60-gallon, and what are your average readings compared to an aquarium without a sump system? I find that dissolved oxegen and pH stay far more steady with a reverse lighting schedule.

Healthy plants means healthy fish,
Dave

[Star-flog]

I learnt from another planted tank website. Instead of having separate tank as sump, could we build in an internal sump system back-to-back to the main tank.

For Example:-

Original tank size : 60"(L)x 18"(H)x 24"(W)= 424L/112G

Turn into (with a non-transparent glass partition):-

1) Main Tank size: 60" (L)x 18"(H)x 20"(W)= 353L/93G
2) Internal sump : 60" (L)x 18"(H)x 4" (W)= 71L/19G
Total Ttank Dimension : Same as the original tank size.

The benefits, to put the water pump and filter medias etc in sump area and clear layout etc.

Anyone tried that before and any comments?

[Durlänger]

Look under (this was wronge edition)

[Durlänger]

I found similar methode to my thesie (see above), they use it in a swim-lake in Germany (in German )

http://www.wdr.de/tv/q21/1803.0.phtml

"Das Schilf als Dialyse..." is the Titel of the part to look at:!: