HELP! My tank is doing weird things

marleygirl · Post by **marleygirl** » 12 Jun 2005, 21:54

I posted about my sick pictus cat yesterday and all water levels were fine, now my tanks levels are sky rocketed and I have a white film on the gravel, plants, filters, and all of the tank. I just went and bought amquel plus and I am going to clean tank and do a water change and see what I can do. What is this white stuff growing everywhere. It was not there this morning and all levels are off now. I am so confused. Also I was wondering if anyone could tell me how to cool my tank it is up to 86 degrees and I tried ice bags but it isn't helping. I cannot find a tank chiller anywhere.

Post by **Shane** » 12 Jun 2005, 23:46

This may help with the temperature issues.

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... hp?t=11678

The "white stuff" is not ringing a bell. Can you post a photo?
-Shane

natefrog · Post by **natefrog** » 13 Jun 2005, 07:03

A temp spike could cause a bloom of either a algae (cyanobacteria types), or other bacterial and fungal agents. It sounds to me like the temperature spike, combined with something else, possibly a large amount of uneaten food, has caused a bloom.

If you do manage to get things cleaned up it may be to late for your tanks nitrogen cycle as the rapid change in conditions can kill it completly.

If you have another possible tank to move your fish to I would quarantine them for now and do a 50-60% water change and see how the nitrate, nitrite and ammonia levels are.

marleygirl · Post by **marleygirl** » 13 Jun 2005, 15:23

I THINK IT WAS FROM OVER FEEDING. I CLEANED THE TANK AND DID A 50% WATER CHANGE. i ADDED AQUARIUM SALT, AMQUEL PLUS BECAUSE MY AMMONIA LEVEL IS STILL OVER 8.0 I CANT SEEM TO GET IT TO GO DOWN AT ALL. THE WHITE STUFF IS GONE TODAY. I CANT POST A PIC CAUSE I DONT HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY TO DO SO. THE FISH SEEM TO BE OK TODAY A FEW ARE A LITTLE STRESSED OUT BUT I MADE IT THROUGH THE NIGHT WITHOUT LOSING ANY SO FAR. THE PH IS TESTING 7.0, AND NITRITE AND NITRATE ARE TESTING 0. I REMOVED SOME OF THE GRAVEL I THINK I HAD TO MUCH AND I REMOVED SOME OF THE PLANTS AND CHANGED THE FILTER CARBONS. I HAVE ADDED ICE BAGS INTO THE TANK AND SHUT OFF THE TANK LIGHT TO TRY TO KEEP THE TEMP DOWN. I WILL TEST TANK AGAIN TONIGHT AND SEE WHAT THE LEVELS ARE AT AGAIN. AND DO A 10% WATER CHANGE AGAIN. IT ISN'T CLOUDY OR FILMY ANYMORE. I HAVE FED THEM 1/2 OF WHAT I WAS. THESE FISH ARE PIGS THEY EAT ALMOST EVERYTHING I PUT IN FOR THEM AND WHAT THEY DON'T EAT I REMOVE AFTER 10-15 MINUTES. I WAS USING AMMOLOCK BUT IT WASN'T WORKING. I DONT WANT TO LOSE MY FISH SINCE THE LAST TIME I LOST THEM ALL TO ICK AND IT IS QUITE EXPENSIVE. I AM GOING TO KEEP TRYING THE ICE BAGS I GOT THE TEMP DOWN TO 82 FARENHEIT. THE PICTUS CATS SEEM TO BE MOVING AROUND ALOT WHICH WASN'T THE CASE BEFORE. I LOST ONE PICTUS BUT I THINK IT WAS DO TO THEM FIGHTING. ANY INFO YOU HAVE WOULD GREATLY HELP. I HAVE BEEN DOING SO MUCH RESEARCH, BUT I GET CONFLICTING STATEMENTS AND DON'T KNOW REALLY HOW TO PROCEED. I DON'T FEED THEM LIVE FOOD JUST ALGAE WAFERS, SHRIMP PELLETS AND COLOR BITS. I TRIED FROZEN BRINE SHRIMP BUT IT MAKES SUCH A MESS IN THE TANK AND IT IS HARD TO REMOVE AND SEE TO REMOVE. THANKS FOR YOUR HELP.....

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 13 Jun 2005, 15:46

Ok, here's what to do after you've turned your Caps-Lock key off on your computer... [Writing in all capitals is not friendly, it's the text equivalent of shouting, and I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate it if I was shouting if we met for a chat in person...]

1. If you have Pimelodus Pictus, you shouldn't have salt in the water. They don't like it (as in, it may kill them in the short or long term, depending on the amount of salt).

2. If you have high ammonia and no measurement of nitrite and nitrate, that means that your "friendly bacteria" in the tank isn't there to help convert the ammonia to nitrite that is then converted to nitrate. Nitrate is about 100 times less dangerous to the fish than ammonia and nitrite.

3. Don't feed much for the next few days. Just a little bit is enough to keep most fish alive (at the moment, we're trying to prevent them from poisoning each other with ammonia, and less food -> less ammonia).

4. Continue doing 20-40% water changes. That's the best way to keep the ammonia down. Unfortunately, it also prevents the friendly bacteria from developing, but it will keep the fish alive.

5. Make sure you use dechlorinator on the water. Not only is chlorine unhealthy for the fish, but it will also kill your friendly bacteria that takes care of the ammonia conversion.

6. Keep monitoring the water quality (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate). You should, at some point, see the ammonia start to disappear, and nitrite start rising. Then nitrite will diminish and nitrate start rising. This will probably take a few weeks, maybe even eight weeks in the case when you're doing big water changes each day.

7. To keep your friendly bacteria happy, make sure you don't clean the filter with tap-water, as it's going to kill the friendly bacteria, and you're back to start again. DO NOT clean the filter until the tank is fully cycled, i.e. you don't have any ammonia or nitrite reading.

--
Mats

marleygirl · Post by **marleygirl** » 13 Jun 2005, 15:54

Sorry I didn't mean to be yelling. Thanks for all the advice. Everything seems ok and the only high reading is the ammonia level but that should quickly drop. I had no choice but to use salt in the tank because the fish were stressed and that is all that I had at the time. Thanks again and I will keep you posted on what is happening.

Marleygirl

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 13 Jun 2005, 16:01

Appology accepted.

Using "salt because the fish are stressed" isn't quite useful if the fish gets MORE stressed because of the salt, right?

Do not add more salt to the tank, please...

--
Mats

marleygirl · Post by **marleygirl** » 14 Jun 2005, 00:14

thanks for the advice and I wont use anymore salt. I was told previously to use salt by a few and now I am being told to not. I think they will all be ok. They seem to be anyways so lets keep our fingers crossed. thank you so much for the advice I really appreciate it and thanks for accepting my appology. I did not realize I was on cap locks since I typed without looking.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 14 Jun 2005, 11:10

marleygirl wrote:thanks for the advice and I wont use anymore salt. I was told previously to use salt by a few and now I am being told to not. I think they will all be ok. They seem to be anyways so lets keep our fingers crossed. thank you so much for the advice I really appreciate it and thanks for accepting my appology. I did not realize I was on cap locks since I typed without looking.

Like so many things in life, different people have a different understanding on what to do when and how. Putting salt in a fishtank is a good thing in some circumstances. If you have Ich (white spot decease) it will help kill the Ich. So as a medecine against certain illness, salt is useful.

There are also some fish that live in brackish water, such as the river-mouth at the sea, where the water is mixing between fresh and salt-water. These fish will be happy to have some salt in the water. Some of these fish are even moving from fresh water to salt water during their lifetime. Salmon would be the most famous one, which spawns in the fresh-water rivers, and as young will migrate to the salt water, feed thoroughly on small fish and shrimp in the sea, and then migrate back up the river they were born in and spawn. Similarly, the Colombian shark, which is a catfish, will move from freshwater to saltier water as it grows old.

On the other hand, if you have fish that live their entire live in fresh-water, and that are quite sensitive to salt. These fish will feel very ill if they are kept in salt water, even if the amount of salt is relatively small.

In the case where the salt is used as a medecine, it's a temporary measure, and it's often a case of choosing between two evils, either the fish dies from the desease or you add medecine and the fish MAY live.

In the case where the water is bad in the tank, however, it's not really helpfull to add "medecine" to the water, just like if you feel fine but the air is a bit dirty, you don't take aspirins just in case you get a headache, right?

--
Mats

marleygirl · Post by **marleygirl** » 14 Jun 2005, 14:39

Mats:
I was wondering if you knew how to get the ammonia down in their tank. I have continued to do a water change everyday and the ammonia is still reading 8.0. I have tried amquel plus for 2 days and it hasn't lowered at all. I also want to thank you for the advice. The small case of ick that I had is gone so I will no longer use the salt, or any other of the additives. Is there anything that I can do to lower the ammonia before I lose all of my fish. I didnt realize that I had overcrowding because all the fish were small and I don't have another tank yet. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for you time.

Marleygirl

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 14 Jun 2005, 15:00

Aside from:
1. Very little feeding.
2. Water changes.

there is one very good way of getting rid of ammonia:
Niterobacter. They are the "friendly bacteria" that live in your tank to convert ammonia (NH4) to nitrite (NO2) and nitrate (NO3).

Unfortunately, it seems like these aren't present in your tank (or you would have non-zero results on those NO2/NO3 levels).

So I think, the current plan would be to make big water changes, maybe more than half the tank at a time. Just make sure the new water you add is the same temperature (or close to) as the water in the tank, so you don't stress the fish further with water temperature changes too.

There are supposedly products on the market that can reduce ammonia. I'm not familiar with those (never used any of them), so I don't know what the names are or whether "it does what is says on the bottle".

If 8.0 is 8.0 ppm, then I'd say get the water out of the tank now. Also check if there's any rotting food/fish in the tank that would cause extra ammonia to be present.

Also, if your tap water that has Chloramine added, I would expect that to upset the measuring of Ammonia (as Chloramine essentially is ammonia and chlorine bound together). You may want to check that your tapwater doesn't have ammonia in it before you add it (just run the same test on the tap-water, before you even start changing water). If your tap-water has ammonia, make sure you have a dechlorinator that is capable of removing Chloramine. I'd check the water before and after adding dechlorinator.

I uses Stress-coat, which should be available in a local fish shop. As far as I can tell, it does a good job, and it actually lasts better than many of the competing products (you need a smaller amount compared to other products).

--
Mats

pturley · Post by **pturley** » 14 Jun 2005, 16:27

I only just picked up on this thread and have one question and observation.

Marleygirl, did you read the labeling on the Amquel? On it I beleive that you'll read that Amquel will ruin Nessler's Reagent ammonia test readings.
As about 99% of all commonly marketed Ammonia test kits utilize Nessler's Reagents, your problem may well be that, and not what is in the tank.
As I see it you have two options:
1. Keep doing frequent daily water changes (can't hurt) but stop using the Amquel. After several 70% changes, the Amquel will removed and then you can take reading.

or

2. Keep doing what you are including using the Amquel to prevent potential ammonia spikes and trust that it's doing it's job protecting the fish. Then over time slowly taper down to your normal maintenance regieme.
(Per their advertisements, once bonded to Amquel, ammonia is supposed to still be available to the Nitrosomas bacteria in your tank so the tank is "supposed" to cycle.)

I have used both strategies in the past. It's up to you which you are more comfortable with.

Also, the "white stuff" sounds like fungus, likely from overfeeding and a crash of the bacterial culture in the tank.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 14 Jun 2005, 16:32

Paul,

thanks for that clarification. I wasn't aware of this side effect of amquel (I've never used it).
This does make sense, as I can't really see how the fish are actually surviving any length of time in 8.0 ppm of ammonia.

--
Mats

pturley · Post by **pturley** » 14 Jun 2005, 17:37

MatsP,
That's kinda what I figured....

I didn't know if Amquel is available in the UK.

marleygirl · Post by **marleygirl** » 14 Jun 2005, 19:45

Thank you both for helping out I will do exactly what you said. Those fish stores around here pretend to know what they are talking about and now I know better. I still have live fish, haven't lost one yet but I am very nervous to lose any. I will keep you posted and again thanks for taking the time to help me. Who would have guessed that perfect strangers could be so helpful and nice. Take care and I look forward to hearing from you both again.

Marleygirl

jen.nelson · Post by **jen.nelson** » 18 Jun 2005, 04:01

Hey,

As a side note - I've used Amquel Plus (different than plain ol' Amquel) to help with the cycling process of several tanks now and found it VERY useful. You can tell if your test kit is really registering the effects of the Amquel by doing a test, recording the reading, putting in the appropriate amount of Amquel (the label will tell you how many ppm of the different substances it will neutralize), and doing the test again. If the reading is exactly the same as before the Amquel, it's likely that your test kit is one of those that won't record the effects.

As an FYI, the Amquel Plus will also neutralize Nitrite (what the ammonia is converted to by the Nitrobacter). I've had a MUCH harder time getting the bacteria that convert Nitrite to Nitrate to grow, so Amquel Plus has literally been a lifesaver.

Hope that helps!

Jen

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 18 Jun 2005, 13:53

I believe I had a problem not exactly the same as Marleygirl, but similar. I've been posting about it. We've been having crazy weather here in New England (Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Maine, Vermont & New Hampshire). Literally, one day is 92 degrees F., and within two hours, the temperature drops 30 full degrees into the high 50's. Most folks up here have heating systems, not AC.

I didn't have ammonia spikes, but I did have temperature spikes. I compounded the situation by accidently spilling a small amount of the yeast/sugar mix, via the tubing, into the tank during this heat spell. This created a white, stringy substance in the tank. The Chaetostoma died.

I learned some incredibly valuable lessons. I know these tanks are "closed systems." But, I never really knew what that meant until this happened. I thought I knew what the term "eco-system" meant, but I didn't. When this situation occured, one off-kilter variable(temperature) crashed into another (foreign substance-the yeast/sugar) to create a pollutant. The entire system, which was healthy when I went to sleep, was non-functional 8 hours later. After I cleaned things up, I tried to visualize this on a larger scale. What if this was a river?I'm no scientist. This incident just opened my eyes a little.

Sorry for the rant.

troi · Post by **troi** » 18 Jun 2005, 17:57

marleygirl wrote:...STILL OVER 8.0 ... THE PH IS TESTING 7.0, AND NITRITE AND NITRATE ARE TESTING 0. I REMOVED SOME OF THE GRAVEL I THINK I HAD TO MUCH AND I REMOVED SOME OF THE PLANTS AND CHANGED THE FILTER CARBONS. ... I WAS USING AMMOLOCK BUT IT WASN'T WORKING. .....

I just saw this post. What jumps out at me is that you were using AmmoLock and it didn't work. I have had similar problems with that product. I believe it does "lock" the ammonia, which means it is less harmful, but the filter bacteria (and gravel bacteria) can't use it and the tank won't stablize in terms of nitrogen cycle--you'll always get ammonia. As of the day you wrote this, your tank wasn't cycling at all--probably because of the ammolock.

(LIVE)Plants help pull the nitrogen products out of your water, a good thing. More gravel, more area for the beneficial bacteria to colonize on, so once you make sure gravel and plants are not growing hydra or algae or whatever, you migh want to put them back in. Several inches of gravel is usually fine.

good luck,

troi

natefrog · Post by **natefrog** » 18 Jun 2005, 18:15

Troi wrote:

Several inches of gravel is usually fine.

I would suggest that several inches of gravel is far too much. Without a UGF with a very powerful pump there will be no circulation through the gravel and anerobic bacteria will build up in the substrate. These bacteria are capable of producing toxic compounds through their metabolic processes, as well as competing with the friendly aerobic bacteria.

As a general rule, I would only suggest having a gravel depth of 2-4cm (1-2in).

troi · Post by **troi** » 18 Jun 2005, 18:46

natefrog wrote: These bacteria are capable of producing toxic compounds through their metabolic processes, as well as competing with the friendly aerobic bacteria.

Been know to happen, I suppose, but I have never seen it be a problem, even in tanks with up to six inches of substrate.

It is a trade off--more substrate, more nitrifying bacteria but more vacuuming or crud accumulation and some swamp gas--or plants. In big catfish or goldfish tanks, I only use about 1 inch substrate, but I rely heavily on media in the filters. For planted tanks, three to six inches. Deep substrate is more stable, and I don't find the plants root or grow as well in less than three inches of substrate.

troi

marleygirl · Post by **marleygirl** » 18 Jun 2005, 19:20

Thanks for all the input. I lost another bala shark but the other fish are hanging in there. They sometimes go pale, but I am doing water changes everyday and stopped using Amquel plus. I am back to ammo lock. Is live plants really ok? I am not sure so I haven't put any in. I am keeping my fingers crossed that the fish will continue to live and I can get this ammonia level down. It is testing almost black and scaring me. I think the fish are ok though. I don't see any fins clamped or anything just the iridescents go pale at times and then all of a sudden they get their color back after i feed them. Thanks again and I will keep you posted.....Marleygirl

troi · Post by **troi** » 18 Jun 2005, 21:44

marleygirl wrote:but I am doing water changes everyday and stopped using Amquel plus. I am back to ammo lock. Is live plants really ok? I am not sure so I haven't put any in... It is testing almost black and scaring me.

I would go back to the Amquell _Plus_ and get a test kit that is effective with the Amquell Plus in the water. Do NOT use the regualar Amquell in this kind of situation, for now. The two-solution Aquarium Pharmaceuticals ammonia test kit is easy, accurate enough and available nearly anywhere in the US.

1) AmmoLock seems to be good for a short ammonia spike, but in my experience and that of others, this product prevents the tank from ever settling.

2) A "regular" ammo test will look black and yucky with one or two ppm ammonia in the water and be unreadable. I think if your ammonia level were really 8.0 your fish would be dead.

3) You should monitor your pH, as well. pale fish can sometimes be a result of low pH.

5) yes, plants are good for the fish, who sometimes think of salad when we think of water quality

troi

Deb · Post by **Deb** » 19 Jun 2005, 00:26

I want to add something to this, and I hope it will be helpful.

If you go to live plants, and I hope you do, several inches of gravel will work because the plant roots will dig down and spread out to keep things fresh. You will not find anaerobic pockets in a well-planted, well-maintained tank. Plants clean the water, and enjoy ammonia as their primary food. Diana Walstad discusses this very completely in her book, The Ecology of the Planted Aquarium. In fact, plants prefer ammonia to nitrate, which they only enjoy if nothing else is available.

The depth of your substrate should be proportional to your tank height.

If you are going to keep South American catfish, I don't see how you can deny them live plants.

The toxic compounds referred to in Natefrog's post, are real. They are Hydrogen sulfides, but as I said, it would be very unlikely (and some would say impossible) for this to develop in a tank which was thickly planted with heavily-feeding, rooted plants.

Deborah

marleygirl · Post by **marleygirl** » 19 Jun 2005, 01:30

Thanks any type of plant that you would recommend would be helpful. I will try this. I seem to have couldy water tonight again. I am about to do a partial water change and I test the tank every night for Ph, Nitrite, Nitrate, ammonia, it is a master test kit that I use everynight and I don't just do one I do them all. I am still worried about using Amquel plus though cause it says that it can be harmful to the fish. I just don't know what to do....Marleygirl

Deb · Post by **Deb** » 19 Jun 2005, 04:29

I don't know a thing about Amquel or Amquel Plus.
If Amquel Plus has an ingredient that stimulates slime coat production, then it's an irritant, and I would use it sparingly with scaleless fish.

I think you have cloudy water because of a bacterial bloom brought on by changing lots of water in a short time.

It's usually no big deal; the bacteria will adjust themselves as soon as the conditions stabilize.

I think we are all agreed that your ammonia reading may be inaccurate, and in fact we don't know what your ammonia count really is. Are the frequent water changes helping? Is the test reading lower (i.e., closer to 0) for ammonia?

Your best bet for plants (in a 55 gallon) is two Amazon Sword plants (Echinodorus species, I suggest amazonicus or bleheri) placed apart from each other, and a fast growing stem plant, like Bacopa caroliniana, or another tough leaved stem plant. Get many stems and plant them all along the back and sides. Echinodorus are heavy feeders, and will need fertilizer tablets.

The Swords have a large crown and thick roots that will spread everywhere in a radius, like a tree. They will certainly aerate the gravel, or any substrate. Stem plants have anchoring roots that grow straight down and keep the substrate fresh. Any other plants you may wish to add are fine, if they are compatible. Plants compete with each other, and not all of them will do well in the same situation.

You should also consider a floating plant like Water Lettuce (Pistia). These will use their roots to clean the water, but they draw O2 from the air, not the water, so they don't take oxygen from the fish. Meanwhile, they are cleaning the water of ammonia products.

The Amazon Swords don't need high lighting, and the Bacopa will claw its way to the top to get all the light it needs. Pistia is on top already, so it will have plenty of light. I'd try this combination, if I were you.

Don't give up. Keep trying to fix your problem, and you will end up with some fish still alive. Just go on from there, with an improved tank.

Deborah

marleygirl · Post by **marleygirl** » 19 Jun 2005, 14:03

Thanks Deb, I am going today to try to find those plants. I know it is a bacteria bloom, which is beneficial right? The fish are still living so that makes me happy. I tested it and it is less than 8.0 but It still reads high so maybe the test is wrong. I will keep you posted and thanks again for the input on the plants. I won't give up I promise. I hate seeing these fish die I feel like I bought them to kill them and it makes me feel guilty....

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 19 Jun 2005, 15:05

Marleygirl,
What size tank do you have and what kind/size of filter do you have on it? This would be helpful information.

marleygirl · Post by **marleygirl** » 19 Jun 2005, 16:36

I have a 55 gallon with a whisper 60 filter and a penguin biowheel filter 330.

jen.nelson · Post by **jen.nelson** » 19 Jun 2005, 19:47

I know it is a bacteria bloom, which is beneficial right?

Yes and no. Yes, in that, if it's the nitrifying bacteria, that's what you need to reduce the ammonia and nitrite levels. No, in that the bacteria are aerobic; that is, they use oxygen from the water and having a high bacterial count can cause low oxygen levels. So, be sure to watch for signs that your fish are in distress from lack of oxygen, such as gasping at the surface, and if you see such signs, consider adding aeration like an airstone or bubble wand. I've also found that tanks seem to cycle quicker when I provide additional aeration.

As an FYI, the bacteria that form your biofilter normally (as in, in a cycled tank) grow primarily on surfaces, as opposed to being free-floating in the water. That's why it is beneficial to provide lots of surface area in your tank (for instance, with gravel) and in your filter media for these bacteria to colonize. If you see water cloudiness from bacterial blooms after water changes or cleaning, it means you've been a bit too vigorous about getting things clean - that is, you removed too much of the beneficial bacteria from the filter media or gravel bed at the same time.

If Amquel Plus has an ingredient that stimulates slime coat production, then it's an irritant, and I would use it sparingly with scaleless fish.

As the patent for Amquel Plus is pending, there is no ingredient list. However, it does not list "enhancing" or "stimulating" slime coat as one of it's "benefits", like several other water conditioners. It does list removal/de-toxification of chlorine, chloramines, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, and I've found it to effectively perform these tasks. I have various cories, otos, a Hemiloricaria, and a couple types of pl*cos and haven't had an issue with it - and I've had occasion to use up to 10X the "normal" dosage to deal with a temperature-related biofilter crash that caused a scary-high nitrite spike.

As an ancillary thought, I wonder if a sudden drastic increase in the amount of chloramine added by the local water company could be part of the problem? I think that chloramines release ammonia when they are "de-toxified" by the usual dechlorinating chemicals, which is why some water conditioners also list ammonia removal as a benefit - but if the chloramines were high, perhaps the ammonia detox compounds didn't keep up? I'm not sure what the dosage would need to be in order to cause an ammonia spike and whether that would be a plausible explanation, but thought I'd throw it out there since it crossed my brain.

Anyhow, good luck and hopefully your tank is on the mend.

Hope that helps,
Jen

marleygirl · Post by **marleygirl** » 20 Jun 2005, 00:37

Hey everyone......
Just a quick question, i was wondering if I should take the plants that I just bought out of the pots or leave them in...I think the fish will be ok....Yeah!!!!!!!

Thanks again for all of your help and suggestions I so appreciate it.