Which ancistrus?

drpleco · Post by **drpleco** » 20 Jul 2005, 18:55

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/albu ... pic_id=193

Is this guy ancistrus triradiatus:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/lo ... /883_f.php

or a piebald ancistrus?

http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/lo ... /275_f.php

if he's a piebald, he should be able to breed with my commons. If not, I may move him to a different tank. Anyone know what he is? Thanks!

Andy

Post by **Shane** » 20 Jul 2005, 19:24

Andy,
I do not think it is A. triradiatus. Look closely at the photos. In A. triradiatus the markings on the paired fins almost form stripes. Your fish has spots.
-Shane

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 21 Jul 2005, 10:41

Can I just point out that it's probably not such a great idea to breed ANY Ancistrus that aren't SURE to be a pair the same variety, and by variety, I mean albino's mixed with regulars, or regulars of different species, half-albinos, etc.

Attempts to breed should always be made between the SAME type of fish, whether it's albino or regular.

The risk with this is that you're mixing species, and creating hybrids, which we should all try to avoid.

--
Mats

drpleco · Post by **drpleco** » 21 Jul 2005, 13:47

That's a good point, and I agree with you. Not so much about albino x regular, but definitely cross-species. That's why I'm trying so hard to find out what I have before I really set to work breeding them. It's tough here to get two identical, non-related, fish since no one knows where they come from.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 21 Jul 2005, 14:00

By the way, your male in the picture looks like a Common Bristlenose , just a little bit stressed, which is why it's banded with light and dark areas. It would be much easier to confirm this if you had a picture of it without the stress colouration.

A piebald would be more orange and brown, rather than grey and brown.

--
Mats

catfish_cz · Post by **catfish_cz** » 21 Jul 2005, 14:28

my Piebald Ancistrus

http://www.catfish.cz/popisy/loric/krunyr/anc_br.htm

The last fish on my page is not mine, it is from some exhibition, the fish - female - was crossbreed: Piebald Ancistrus x Long Fin (Veiltail) Ancistrus.

It is better to keep Piebald Ancistrus separately, because crossbreeding with other Ancistrus is frequent.

Post by **Shane** » 21 Jul 2005, 16:31

I do not think that the above case qualifies as cross breeding. I believe that the albinos, deformed fin varieties, and piebalds are all just mutants of the same sp. Has anyone seen more than one sp of these toy Ancistrus?
-Shane

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 21 Jul 2005, 17:05

Shane wrote:I do not think that the above case qualifies as cross breeding. I believe that the albinos, deformed fin varieties, and piebalds are all just mutants of the same sp. Has anyone seen more than one sp of these toy Ancistrus?
-Shane

I'd be OK if we were SURE that the albinos (as an example) are surely Ancistrus sp(3). But I've at least seen a couple of cases where people discuss which specie that the albino is, with suggestions of for instance A. Triradiatus. Are you saying that unless it's a real rarity, all albino's, piebalds and long-fins (and combinations thereof) are all the same specie?

Maybe I've just misunderstood all that, and they are all the same specie. In which case I'm OK with them being bred together (althogh I wouldn't be entirely happy if I bought a pair of Ancistrus sp(3) and the babies turn out albino because they had mixed albino and "regular" parents).

--
Mats

drpleco · Post by **drpleco** » 21 Jul 2005, 17:21

yeah, that would be a bummer.

I would like to send a pic of the fish with "normal" coloration, but it is always showing the "stress" colors. Sometimes it's a little darker, but there are always the varigations.

catfish_cz · Post by **catfish_cz** » 21 Jul 2005, 18:17

Shane wrote:I believe that the albinos, deformed fin varieties, and piebalds are all just mutants of the same sp. Has anyone seen more than one sp of these toy Ancistrus?
-Shane

These are the same sp.:

common Ancistrus - hybrid a lot of Ancistrus: Ancistrus dolichopterus x Ancistrus cirrhosus x Ancistrus multispinnis x XY(?) - and I do not know what else ...

common Ancistrus and Ancistrus Long Fin is the same sp.

Ancistrus Gold is the same sp.

and Gold Long Fin too

-----------------------------------------------------------

These are not the same sp.:

(you can see other shape of head, the fish is smaller than common Ancistrus sp., for breeding is nessesary to have soft water with other parameters then is used for breeding common Ancistrus sp.)

Piebald is not the same sp. as common Ancistrus but crosbreeding is possible. Piebald "Long Fin" is a hybrid.

It is the same case if you have L144 and L144 Long Tail (hybrid: L144 x Ancistrus sp. "Gold Long Fin"). L144 is not the same sp. as Ancistrus sp. "Gold Long Fin" but crossbreeding is possible.

It is not good idea to keep two or more sp. of Ancistrus in one tank. One sp. in one tank is more better. You would not be unpleasantly surprised.

DeepFriedIctalurus · Post by **DeepFriedIctalurus** » 22 Jul 2005, 01:09

Shane wrote:I do not think that the above case qualifies as cross breeding. I believe that the albinos, deformed fin varieties, and piebalds are all just mutants of the same sp. Has anyone seen more than one sp of these toy Ancistrus?

As for the common tank strain, albino, and longfins we all usually see...I agree they all appear to be either the same species or the same original hybridization if that's their origins (the piebald does look like it could be something else). I'd also like to mention that the fish in the 1st pic here does appear to be a wild-caught fish of some unknown species, since the common tank strain tends to get washed-out to a greyish color when excited or stressed & never has any orangish color to the fins from all I've seen.

Now on the other hand, I've read articles about Ancistrus & several times I've seen mention of there being 2 different strains/species of albinos. I'm inclined to believe 2 different species altogether, because the 2yr old albino male I have is -all- solid yellow & has unbranched headgear. It's completely patternless but it is NOT L144 because it has red eyes (unless someone made those into an albino too), it also has no pinkish color on the belly or on the top of the head like the common spotted albino often does.

Hopefully I'll be able to recharge our cam or borrow another sometime soon, and you'll all finally see what I'm talkin about here!

Post by **Shane** » 22 Jul 2005, 01:22

As Catfish_cz's photos show, the albino, long-fin, and long-fin albino are all mutations of the so-called Ancistrus sp. 3. I am not saying we will not eventually see mutated A. triradiatus, just that I have not seen any to date. It also does not make sense from a market point of view. These mutations are already fixed in A. sp 3, so why spend all the time and energy to fix them in another homely brown Ancistrus? My guess is that commercial breeders, having fixed these traits, are probably working on doing the same with one of the pretty black and white Ancistrus sp.

common Ancistrus - hybrid a lot of Ancistrus: Ancistrus dolichopterus x Ancistrus cirrhosus x Ancistrus multispinnis x XY(?) - and I do not know what else ...

This statement I disagree with. We have yet to see any proof of this "old wives tale." My guess is that A. sp. 3 is one of the early Ancistrus shipped from Guyana. Asian breeders (and later Eastern European breeders) got their hands on some and set to work with their well-honed mutant Discus, guppy, Betta, Angel fish, etc skills and started coming up with fixed mutations.
That said, I have no more proof that they are not hybrids than anyone has that they are. Let me offer the following however,
1) Is it logical that if you start with a population and try to fix a genetic mutation you would crossbreed different spp? No. You would line breed that population generation after generation and cull non-mutants. If you threw in a different sp. to the mix you would throw off the entire breeding program and introduce massive variables and the possibility of infertile offspring which would end your entire experiment. Throw in many different spp., as Catfish_cz suggests, and you would destroy everything you had done.
2) As someone on the Forum pointed out, if they are hybrids, why is there no variation among A. sp. 3? They all look the same! Albino, long fin, long fin albino, piebald, etc are easily identified as A sp. 3. Shouldn't we see variation in caudal peduncles, fin patterns, fin ray counts, etc if we are dealing with a crazy mixture of many Ancistrus spp?
I know that many of these are divided up in the Cat-eLog, but the truth is that they should all probably just be under A. sp. 3.
-Shane

catfish_cz · Post by **catfish_cz** » 22 Jul 2005, 09:53

From 1950(?) till 1970 was shipped to my country a lot of diferrent kinds of Ancistrus (caught in the nature too). They was bred for many years. Since 1985(?) young fish from these Ancistrus are similar to commom Ancistrus sp (3).

Sometimes you can see that one young Ancistrus with same parents looks different (length, coloration etc.) from other young.

In 2003 I showed in this forum one Ancistrus:

Fish in the center of the picture: this is old female, her length is about 20 cm, she has one row of little tentacles. On the right is adult male of Ancistrus sp. - for comparison by sight.

the same female

Bigger pictures of this fish are here:

http://akvarium.hyperlink.cz/Ancistrus_01.jpg
http://akvarium.hyperlink.cz/Ancistrus_02.jpg

I think that common Ancistrus sp. are hybrids (more then two sp.).

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 22 Jul 2005, 10:31

Shane wrote:As Catfish_cz's photos show, the albino, long-fin, and long-fin albino are all mutations of the so-called Ancistrus sp. 3. I am not saying we will not eventually see mutated A. triradiatus, just that I have not seen any to date. It also does not make sense from a market point of view. These mutations are already fixed in A. sp 3, so why spend all the time and energy to fix them in another homely brown Ancistrus? My guess is that commercial breeders, having fixed these traits, are probably working on doing the same with one of the pretty black and white Ancistrus sp.

common Ancistrus - hybrid a lot of Ancistrus: Ancistrus dolichopterus x Ancistrus cirrhosus x Ancistrus multispinnis x XY(?) - and I do not know what else ...
This statement I disagree with. We have yet to see any proof of this "old wives tale." My guess is that A. sp. 3 is one of the early Ancistrus shipped from Guyana. Asian breeders (and later Eastern European breeders) got their hands on some and set to work with their well-honed mutant Discus, guppy, Betta, Angel fish, etc skills and started coming up with fixed mutations.
That said, I have no more proof that they are not hybrids than anyone has that they are. Let me offer the following however,
1) Is it logical that if you start with a population and try to fix a genetic mutation you would crossbreed different spp? No. You would line breed that population generation after generation and cull non-mutants. If you threw in a different sp. to the mix you would throw off the entire breeding program and introduce massive variables and the possibility of infertile offspring which would end your entire experiment. Throw in many different spp., as Catfish_cz suggests, and you would destroy everything you had done.
2) As someone on the Forum pointed out, if they are hybrids, why is there no variation among A. sp. 3? They all look the same! Albino, long fin, long fin albino, piebald, etc are easily identified as A sp. 3. Shouldn't we see variation in caudal peduncles, fin patterns, fin ray counts, etc if we are dealing with a crazy mixture of many Ancistrus spp?
I know that many of these are divided up in the Cat-eLog, but the truth is that they should all probably just be under A. sp. 3.
-Shane

Thanks Shane for that clarification. I have seen a few places where Albino's have been identified as A. Triradiatus, but I guess that was incorrect.

--
Mats

Post by **Shane** » 22 Jul 2005, 13:33

Thanks Shane for that clarification. I have seen a few places where Albino's have been identified as A. Triradiatus, but I guess that was incorrect.

Mats, They could be correct. I am just saying that in all the photos posted on this site I have never seen any. It is certainly possible that there is more than one albino sp. out there and, if there are, it could explain some of the hybridization myth since folks are seeing differences between two mutated spp. and assuming it is variation due to hybridization.
As I stated before, I have no more proof they are not hybrids than any else has that they are. If someone can come up with some logical reasons why they are, I would be all ears. I think my reasoning above shows some logical deductions as to why they may not be hybrids.
-Shane