suddenly cloudy water

drpleco · Post by **drpleco** » 03 Oct 2005, 02:19

My 50g has been very cloudy for the past week, and I can't figure out why. The only thing different is that I added a Purigen pouch to my filter (aquaclear 70).

The tank has been set up for 9 months and the water parameters are 0,0,10 (ammo, nitrite, nitrate). pH is 7.8, steady and occupants are 4 fancy goldfish and one ancistrus claro.

I haven't been feeding more or less, and nothing is different except the purigen. Can this be causing the cloudiness? Maybe it's starving the beneficial bacteria?

I thought I may have too much light (I have 1.5w/gallon on for 14 hrs./day). But the water is cloudy white, not green.

Anyone have this happen to them?

djw66 · Post by **djw66** » 03 Oct 2005, 03:18

I am not familier with the pouch, but it sounds like it needs to be rinsed before use. It could be dust from the media within the pouch that's clouding your water.

I don't think its your light, unless they are old and skewed towards the red, causing a bloom. I use more than 3 and sometimes 4 watts per gallon for live plants and have no algae problems, and I change the compact florescents every 10 months.

Dave

WhitePine · Post by **WhitePine** » 03 Oct 2005, 06:34

I would agree with Dave. Did you rinse out the pouch out very well before you put it in the filter?

Cheers, Whitepine

Post by **Barbie** » 03 Oct 2005, 06:55

I've had algal blooms that started off white like that. I would definitely recommend shutting the lights off for 3 days, along with running some form of micron filter, or even a fine cell pore sponge, if you have one. This should clear it up in short order. If you have live plants, a few days with no lights won't injure them. I'd also recommend never having a photoperiod longer than 10 hours, in the future. There will be a certain amount of ambient room light during the day and an overly long photoperiod can cause just the problem you're dealing with. I doubt the purigen is causing the problem, personally. Without live plants, there's just really no need for the lights to be on when you aren't home to enjoy the fish, unless the room they are in is completely dark otherwise, IMO.

Barbie

drpleco · Post by **drpleco** » 03 Oct 2005, 19:44

Thanks, everyone!

I did rinse the packets, so it shouldn't be that...I'm glad to hear that someone had a "white algae bloom" so I'll reduce the light and see what happens. I only had it on so much to encourage algae growth for my ancistrus. I guess I'll just drop in an occasional algae wafer and hope for the best.

I emailed Seachem and they said that purigen shouldn't cloud the water, and also shouldn't starve beneficial bacteria. Good things to know.

Three days of darkness coming up!

Durlänger · Post by **Durlänger** » 06 Oct 2005, 16:59

drgold wrote:an occasional algae wafer

What

The words doesn`t make sense when I translate it by Dictionary to German

If it`s a chemical substanse to clean pond`s it wouldn`t let enough algea for your pleco to eat.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 06 Oct 2005, 17:06

DurlÃ¤nger wrote:
drgold wrote:an occasional algae wafer
What The words doesn`t make sense when I translate it by Dictionary to German

If it`s a chemical substanse to clean pond`s it wouldn`t let enough algea for your pl*co to eat.

No, it means "on some occasions, I've fed algae wafers", such as the Hikari Algae Wafers, which is food for algae-eaters, such as Pleco.

--
Mats

drpleco · Post by **drpleco** » 06 Oct 2005, 17:12

I have had the lights out for 3 days and fed very sparingly, but still no change. If anything, the cloudiness is worse. The only decorations are silk plants and clay pots, so I don't think anything is dissolving.

I'm going to check in the filters and see if there is decaying food somewhere. Otherwise, I'll try daily 30% water changes and see if anything happens.

Any other ideas?

Durlänger · Post by **Durlänger** » 06 Oct 2005, 17:53

MatsP wrote:
DurlÃ¤nger wrote:
drgold wrote:an occasional algae wafer
What The words doesn`t make sense when I translate it by Dictionary to German

If it`s a chemical substanse to clean pond`s it wouldn`t let enough algea for your pl*co to eat.
No, it means "on some occasions, I've fed algae wafers", such as the Hikari Algae Wafers, which is food for algae-eaters, such as pl*co.

--
Mats

Now I understand

Jackster · Post by **Jackster** » 06 Oct 2005, 21:10

Read this.

drpleco · Post by **drpleco** » 06 Oct 2005, 21:36

That's a great article. However, it doesn't specify how to get rid of the bacterial bloom. Do I just reduce feedings and increase water changes? I have 4 goldfish in the tank so there is a never-ending supply of ammonia......

Jackster · Post by **Jackster** » 06 Oct 2005, 23:40

I would suggest not to feed any food for a few days (fish won't starve). I've found that large water changes
can make cloudy water even worse so let your tank "balance" itself. Don't change any water for a couple
of weeks unless the ammonia or nitrite levels increase. Usually when a cloudy water condition
exists the "biological load" on your tank has reached it's maximum. Without knowing everthing
about your aquarium it is hard to say exactly what the problem is.

How much water do you replace when you do a water change?
What is your normal frequency of water changes?
What filtration are you using? (Just an AqauClear 70) Any extra aeration?
What about an undergravel filter? What temperature is your water?
Do you declorinate your tap water?

You only have 5 fish in a 50 G tank which should not be to many. I'm guessing a combination of
to little filtration and to much or to many feedings sounds reasonable. I also suggest to
prepare your tap water ahead of time for water changes. Let's say your going to change
10 gallons per week. Find a container that will hold the water, add dechlorinator
(unless you have well water), aerate the water for 4-6 hours, siphon out 10 gallons
from your aqaurium, and then refill your tank with your prepared water.
If you ever want to keep other types of fish this is a good habit to learn.

As far as lighting goes, I would just use them as normal daylight (8-12 hrs).
One of my friends leaves his lights on 24-7 and has no problems at all with one exception.
His African Mbuna always grow larger and faster than mine?

Post by **Barbie** » 07 Oct 2005, 00:11

I'd have to disagree about 4 goldfish not being a substantial bioload. Especially if they're sizable. Not feeding the tank for 3 days, adding additional aeration and covering the tank completely with a blanket will usually rid you of stubborn algal blooms. Even ambient daylight through a window can manage to keep it alive. Keep in mind that the algae die off can stress the biobed with the amount of waste if it dies off quickly, so check a couple times a day for any stress signs in the fish. A UV sterilizer would also fix your problem, as would a micron type filter that removes particulate down to a very small size, such as the ones that come in Magnum canister filters. I've never had water changes hurt anything, so I always recommend doing them as a preventative measure. Maybe jackster will explain just what avoiding them will "balance?"

Barbie

jimmy chonga · Post by **jimmy chonga** » 07 Oct 2005, 00:13

good post, i have been having the same problem recently

i think its that i have been using bio wheel filters AND cycle and its too much bacteria load in my tanks

maybe i should stop the 30% water changes every other day

Jackster · Post by **Jackster** » 07 Oct 2005, 03:25

I do not feel that algae bloom is the right term. What causes the milky blueish-white cloudy water is
aerobic heterotrophs (bacteria) if you read the article. I have found from my own personal experience
that large or frequent water changes can make the problem worse and even cause it.
Stirring up the aquarium by pouring in water will just cause more organic matter to be
floating around as food for these bacteria. In my aquariums, green algae is part of the "cycle".
Removing or killing it, in my opinion, would be harmful and would just add more dead organic
material to feed the already overpopulated bacteria and disturb the "cycle' or "balance" of the aqaurium even more.
An aqaurium is just a minature ecosystem and it will "balance" itself as long as one does not
exceed it's "Life Buffer Capacity".

Goldfish are rather "dirty" and if they are large I would agree that they could make a lot of waste.
I will also say that water changes are very important but, in this case, I would wait a couple of weeks if the
ammonia or nitrite levels do not get critical.

drpleco · Post by **drpleco** » 07 Oct 2005, 05:50

Two goldfish are 3" and two are 5". I have 4 AC70's and a bubblewall. I do 50% water changes each week, and sometimes 2x weekly. I also have 2 purigen pouches to keep nitrates lower.

I can suspend feeding and hang a blanket and see what happens. I changed water today and it looked greenish in the white buckets. Since the only thing that changed was the amount of light, I suspect an algae bloom.

I'll report back in three days with results.

(I should add that the tank has been cycled for months)

Thanks all!

Andy

Jackster · Post by **Jackster** » 07 Oct 2005, 14:56

I just noticed where you are from and I had to laugh. I was born in Jackson, Michigan and I also
lived in Sturgis. I spent some time around the Hillsdale and Jonesville area too as that's where my
grandparents lived. Is that fairly close to Ypsilanti?

Back to your water, I think you are doing plenty of water changes maybe a little much.
Your filtration sounds good and with an extra bubble wall for aeration that's perfect.
I would suggest a 25%-30% water change once week but that's just my preference.
One thing I'm confused about is the nitrates. If your using something to absorb nitrates
then algae growth should slow down along with the decrease in nitrates as nitrates are food for algae
and other plants in the aqaurium. With the amount of water changes your doing I would think that
nitrates would not have a chance to build up anyway. The only exception could be the possibility
of your tap or well water containing nitrates.

You may want to look into your water hardness. Low KH (carbonate hardness) in the
aqaurium can cause your water to lose it's buffering capacity which will result in a drop in PH.
What is the difference between your tap water and tank water in both PH and KH?
Water that has lost it's buffering capacity can be greenish-yellow also.
Please read this (middle of the page).

What type of lighting are you using? Besides African fish, I grow orchids. Florescent bulbs really
don't do a good job of growing much unless you are using bulbs that are designed to
output a specific spectrum of light (blue actinic or 6500 K for example). Nothing can
do as good as the sun itself. I don't recommend direct sunlight on an aqaurium and I
would agree with Barbie on the point that even too much ambient sunlight can cause
quite a large amount of algae growth. What brand of bulbs, how many, and what wattage?

You said you have an Ancistrus in your tank and they will keep algae to a minimum.
I have an L034 in one of my tanks and the glass is so clean it looks polished.

Good luck and post your results in a few days.

drpleco · Post by **drpleco** » 07 Oct 2005, 15:16

I'm actually from Wausau, WI, but moved here for graduate school. I did my undergrad in Milwaukee. And I think Ypsi it close to the cities you mentioned...Jackson for sure. I have a buddy that just moved there.

As far as the lighting...I have an all-glass triple tube light with 3-25w 9k bulbs. I bought it for my java ferns, but sold them when I kept getting parasites.

Nitrates are still present, since goldfish are so messy. I used to generate about 15ppm per week, but now I'm down to 5, so each week the water change reduces them from 10 to 5. The purigen just brings it under a bit more control. It doesn't seem to affect the fish one way or the other.

The water is pretty hard and stays at a constant 7.8 ph. I don't have a method to measure kh or gh, but was told by the local fish store guru that any attempts to soften the water would be useless since city water is so hard. At the time I was considering adding peat to soften the water for the pl*cos. Blessing and a curse, I guess. No ph crashes, but it may not keep the pl*cos perfectly happy. I just have common bristlenoses and one a. claro, though. So far they seem happy enough. I just wish I could get them to eat spot algae...

There is a window nearby, and the tank gets about an hour of indirect (filtered through plants in the window) light per day.

I think if I blanket-wrap the tank, the fish won't know that it's not night and shouldn't get too stressed. I'll miss them for a few days, though....

Thanks for all the help!

Jackster · Post by **Jackster** » 07 Oct 2005, 17:35

So were both cheeseheads! I happen to live in Door County.
Your lighting sounds pretty intense maybe you should cut back on the usage a bit.

Hard water is vague term and you may want to test the actual KH (carbonate) and
GH (general) hardness values. If your water has high KH your pet store guru is right
that it may be difficult to "soften" it. My tap water is 8.3 PH...24 dh GH...12 dh KH.
One degree dh is equal to about 17 ppm. In my 55 gallon tank the KH level ends up at
8 dh. I use a buffer additive to make sure it does not go below 8. I raise African fish
so they like these conditions. I've found that most suckermouths will acclimate to my
water conditions but I'm in the process of setting up a low PH tank to attempt to spawn
some Hypancistrus or maybe Ancistrus. I have not decided yet. Wish me luck!

Post by **Barbie** » 08 Oct 2005, 00:07

Your plecos will not need low pH water to spawn. Both Ancistrus and Hypancistrus do just fine at those levels. You'll need to soften the water to simulate a rainy season anyway, but I definitely wouldn't mess with the pH. They really don't care. Blackwater Ancistrus WILL care, but they are the only ones you'll notice a difference in fry mortality with, IME. There really is no need to lower the pH of the water unless you are certain you can stabilize it there. Keep in mind ammonia is MUCH more toxic at higher pH and don't interrupt filtration and the high pH will give you very little problems.

IMO a nitrate level of under 20ppm, especially in a goldfish tank is quite commendable without it being fully planted!

Barbie

Jackster · Post by **Jackster** » 08 Oct 2005, 01:22

Thanks Barbie and tell me what you mean by blackwater Ancistrus. Kevin Korotev offered to ship me some Ancistrus dolichopterus L083 fry for $10 each. Would you consider that blackwater? My other choice was Hypancistrus sp. (L066) as I have a friend that has them for $17 each at 3.75 inches. The L066 hopefully will spawn much sooner but give me your honest opinion on which species will do better in my hard water conditions and can you give me an idea of how long it take for the Ancistrus dolichopterus to mature from 1". Sorry so many questions.

Post by **Barbie** » 08 Oct 2005, 05:47

The L183 Kevin has are definitely blackwater, and actually the only plecos I had in my house that I had to drastically modify my water parameters for to get a fertile spawn. Ask him where his came from ;). I just loved those fish. I lost the entire group while I was gone to Boston last summer. Maybe it was a sign that I should stick with fish that like my tap water ;). You'll be a good year maturing the Ancistrus, probably closer to 2 getting them spawning, in average conditions.

We might want to start a thread on this topic in the Lori forum though, so as not to hijack the current one ;).

Barbie

jimmy chonga · Post by **jimmy chonga** » 09 Oct 2005, 05:49

wow

that life buffer article was pretty intense

makes me with my super duper triple biowheel and used tank setup feel like a bit of an ignoramus....

so the goldfish must go i have decided(all except my 16 inch long 7year old comet), and i need 2 UV sterilizers, one for my 29 and one for my 72 gallon.

Jackster · Post by **Jackster** » 09 Oct 2005, 18:18

Barbie, I realized I was hijacking after I wrote the post........sorry, I'll start a new one if need be.
Sounds like the L066 will be the proper choice.

jimmy chonga I'm glad you read the LB theory article and got something out of it.
I've always kept my tanks close to the limits and I'm currently trying to decrease the
loads on my aquariums. I live in an isolated area and I occasionally sell a few fish so
overstocking them helps to to give my friends more choices when buying fish.
I also have been bitten by the pleco bug and I'm going to attempt to spawn some.