New Synodontis??

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 12 Mar 2003, 11:41

Hi at all,

I have a question. What do you think about this Synodontis?

I have seen it on a german page, there it is called S. verlifer. But when I wanted to find it in the Cat-E-Log I was suprised, that there is no S. verlifer in it. Is is a new Synodontis?

Post by **Silurus** » 12 Mar 2003, 12:16

I think the site meant S. velifer. However, the fish is not S. velifer because the spots on the head are too small (C. velifer has large spots on the head) and the dorsal fin is too short (the first two soft dorsal-fin rays of S. velifer are elongated, giving a sail-fin appearance).
The color pattern of the fish is somewhat reminescent of S. katangae, but the body is too stout and the head of S. katangae has not spots. The spots in S. katangae are smaller as well.
The other possibility is S. polystigma, and here the resemblance is much closer. Synodontis polystigma does not have spots on the head as well, however.
I would call this S. cf. polystigma.

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 14 Mar 2003, 15:15

Hi Silurus,

could be that the site meant S. velifer. However, I think that this fish is very interesting. It is offered in germany on http://www.aqua-haus.de. They say that it will reach 5 to 6 cm. To my opinion this is a really small Syno but I think I will buy 5 to 7 of them because they cost only €7,50 and they look beautiful.

But there is also something that I don’t understand in your post. What does this cf. mean? For what does it stand? I have seen it quite often but I never knew what it means.
An other question, have you got a photo of S. ploystigma? If yes, then I would ask you to post it.

That’s it for now.

Post by **Silurus** » 14 Mar 2003, 15:27

cf. in a species name just means that the species is probably not polystigma (but I'm not 100% sure), but because polystigma is the species it resembles most.
I could have used aff. polystigma as well, in which case, it would mean that I am 100% sure it is not polystigma, but something else for which no name exists.
Couldn't find a photo of polystigma to post here. I have a drawing I can email you, though.

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 14 Mar 2003, 19:52

Hi,

thank you for the good information. This does help me a lot.

Another question: do you know a good book about Synodontis? Could also be in English because in German there is nothing really suitable.

Post by **Silurus** » 14 Mar 2003, 19:56

The most authoritative work I have found so far is Max Poll's revision of Synodontis in French:
Poll, M., 1971. RÃ©vision des Synodontis Africains (Famille Mochocidae). Ann. Mus. R. Afr. Cent. Ser. 8 Zool., 191: 1-497.

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 14 Mar 2003, 20:09

Do you also know a book in English or German? I speak French but not very well!

Post by **Silurus** » 14 Mar 2003, 20:12

No, I'm afraid there isn't one in English or German. There's the Aqualog photo-atlas, but it's full of errors.

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 14 Mar 2003, 20:13

Now I will have to improve my French!

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 14 Mar 2003, 20:17

Are there also pictures form the fish in it? Would be good to identify.

Post by **Silurus** » 14 Mar 2003, 20:20

There are very good drawings of many of the species. It is fairly good for identifying Synodontis just by looking at the drawings and comparing them to the fish.

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 14 Mar 2003, 20:24

Drawings are good but are there only drawings or also real pictures.

Post by **Silurus** » 14 Mar 2003, 20:28

No photos, I'm afraid. The only ones are at the back of the book and show the bones only. At least there are drawings for all the species covered. And, except for a handful of species described since 1971, the book covers all Synodontis.

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 14 Mar 2003, 20:30

At the moment I can only say thank you for the information. I will think about.

Charly EON · Post by **Charly EON** » 14 Mar 2003, 22:09

Hello

Ask your LFS if it's tank bred or wildcaught. I looked the website you mentionned and from their availaibility list I guess they have east european suppliers. This fish even nice could be a hybrid.

What's your standing point HH ?

About books I strongly recommend "Faune des poissons d'eau douces et saumÃ¢tres de l'Afrique de l'Ouest" Tome 2 by Paugy, LÃ©vÃªque and Teugels from MRAC/ORSTOM
ISBN 2 7099 1078 0

Hope this helps

Charly

Post by **Dinyar** » 15 Mar 2003, 00:24

Charly EON wrote:This fish even nice could be a hybrid.

That was my first thought too, but I figured I shouldn't say that unless I had at least some circumstantial evidence.

Charly EON wrote:I looked the website you mentionned and from their availaibility list I guess they have east european suppliers.

Sounds like at least circumstantial evidence.

Dinyar

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 15 Mar 2003, 18:59

@ Dinyar

Sounds like at least circumstantial evidence

What exactly does this mean? I come from Austria and so it is not very easy for me to understand it.

@ all
So what do you think now, would it be a good idea to buy this fish?

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 15 Mar 2003, 19:10

Looks like a very nice Syno to me; if it's a hybrid, it's more an ethical matter than anything else.
first off, most people -including me- think that the creation of hybrids is a bad thing. There's plenty nice syno's around for anyone. And buying hybrids will only make it worse, that's the sole reason those are created: money.

but if you're not sure, and if it's a nice, healthy reasonable priced fish; I think you just have to decide for yourself.
The best thing you CAN do so far, is not breeding it, and/or spreading the offspring in the hobby. But breding Syno's isn't easy on any account, so.....

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 15 Mar 2003, 20:20

I do agree with your opinion that hybrids are an ethical matter. But how can I really be sure if a this fish is a hybrid or not. The only thing I can do is to send an e-mail and ask them. Maybe the will answer honestly.

I have already tried to contact them for information about the fish, this was last wednesday, but till today there was no answer. I have to say that this fact already made me thinking. And now the thing with being a hybrid. At the moment I don't know what I should think because on the one hand the Syno looks so beautiful but on the other hand I don't want to support the spreading of hybrids.

By the way, which lengh will S. velifer, polystigma or katangae reach. I want to know because I want to have a small one. The hybrid (?) will only reach 6 to 7 cm.

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 18 Mar 2003, 13:36

Hey guys, no answers?

Post by **Silurus** » 18 Mar 2003, 13:54

By the way, which lengh will S. velifer, polystigma or katangae reach

All three will reach about 24 cm TL, which definitely rules out the fish as being any one of the three species.

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 18 Mar 2003, 14:25

All three will reach about 24 cm TL, which definitely rules out the fish as being any one of the three species.

So maybe it is a new species!

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 19 Mar 2003, 18:44

By the way, which are the smallest Synos?

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 19 Mar 2003, 18:49

Hard to say; I know at least three wich can give you a run for the money:
-Synodontis nigriventris
-Synodontis contractus
-Synodontis "petricola dwarf"
all three max out on 8 cm or so.

Post by **Silurus** » 19 Mar 2003, 19:02

The absolute smallest synos recorded are the following species:
S. marmoratus: 5.2 cm TL
S. leopardus: 5.8 cm SL (approx. 7.0 cm TL)
S. multimaculatus: 8.5 cm TL.
Some of these species are represented by very few specimens and may actually get to be much larger.

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 20 Mar 2003, 18:23

Thanks very much but with the S. petricola "dwarf" there is the problem of identifying. How can I be sure that it is really S. petricola "dwarf"?

Post by **Silurus** » 20 Mar 2003, 18:41

The spots in the dwarf petricola are much bigger than in regular petricolas. The adipose fin is also shorter (but this may not be easily noticeable).

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 20 Mar 2003, 18:43

If you want to be ABSOLUTELY sure -100%- you're in for a rough treatment; as there seem to be several look-a-likes from all over Lake Tanganyika.
But in general; almost 98% of all Syno's, sold as S petricola; are dwarfs.
They can be distinguished by the following marks:
-petricola marks, such as white spines on dorsal AND pectorals both. (else you're getting S polli II)
-small eyes and a wide mouth
-uneven irregular pattern of bigger and smaller spots.
-a less 'stretched' shape, than the true petricola.

There's a nice article on the dwarf in the Catfish of the Month series, and plenty pics in the Cat-e-Log too; check 'em out.

Post by **Dinyar** » 20 Mar 2003, 19:40

As a rough generalization, Silurus is right in saying that the dwarf has larger and fewer spots per unit area. But this is not a rule, as I have a Zambian non-dwarf "petricola" (at least that's what I think it is, it's morphologically identical to another "petricola") that has few and large spots. Likewise, adipose fin shape can also be a bit confusing, as there appear to be several non-dwarf "petricola", which each seem to display differently shaped adipose fins.

To add to the confusion, the dwarf "petricola" from the north of the lake is darker than those from the south.

However, identifying the dwarf is relatively easy if you know what you're looking for, as they don't look much like even juvenile non-dwarfs. If you want to be REALLY sure, just keep it for a few years. If it gets longer than 5-6 cm SL and > 1 cm in height, it's not a dwarf.

We finally had a chance to see Matthes' original description of S. petricola. It's just two short paragraphs. It's clear from the few measurements listed that he's describing a non-dwarf, but that's about all that's clear. I'm no ichthyologist, but many of the most basic things you'd expect in a species description are lacking, e.g., which and how many specimens he examined, where they were collected, etc.

For now, at least this much seems clear: the dwarf "petricola" is a new, undescribed species.

BTW, does anyone know or have any guesses as to the etymology of the Latin word "petricola"?

Dinyar

Post by **Silurus** » 20 Mar 2003, 19:51

Petricola, from the Latin/Greek petra, meaning "stone" and the Latin -colus, meaning "dwelling in".

New Synodontis??

Is this a new Syno?

New Synodontis??