Plant problem, advice needed.

FuglyDragon · Post by **FuglyDragon** » 24 Jan 2006, 04:16

I realise that PC isnt the ideal forum for plant questions, but it seems there are a lot of very knowledgable people here and maybe someone will be able to help me with this...

Progressive deteriation of the broad leafed plants in my discus tank, skeletising of the leaves, yellow round patches.
New leaves are fine if a bit crinkly, but eventually they all go like this.

underside of same leaf (Echidorus sp ?)

and an anubus nana ?

Other plants in the tank, cardimine, chain swords, dwarf sag. Vallisineria grow fine and need regular trimming, but the 3 species of sword plant and the anubus all suffer from the same problem.

ph is 6.8
temp is 28c
NO3 is 3ppm
FE is 0.2 (JBL test kit)
PO4 is .25
2x DIY C02 producing about 1 bubble / 4 secs total (not enough but best I can get at moment)

Daily dose of eheim plant fertiliser from liquidoser.
Daily 5ml dose of Flourish Excel to supplement the C02.
Weekly 5ml dose of Flourish.

Substrate is fine gravel with JBL Aquabasis on bottom, plus undergravel heating cable and Fertiliser balls spread randomly about.

4x Discus 18x Cardinal Tetra 2x Gold Nugget Plecs 2x Twig Cats 4x Sterbai Cory 6x Otto Cats

When the tank was first set up all plants did fantastically, including broad leafed ones, after about 18 monthes this problem started to appear and I needed to move the tank so I stripped it down, reset it up thinking that all would come right, but problem still persists in braodleafs only, everything else is fine.

Any opinions, help, ideas greatly appreciated.

WhitePine · Post by **WhitePine** » 24 Jan 2006, 06:05

What is your Kh? but the real problem is that Your nuggets are grazing on the plants along with the twig catfish. The ottos are not as hard of grazers... so they will not do as much damage(if any) to the plants. Move the nuggets and you will probaly solve the problem.

djw66 · Post by **djw66** » 24 Jan 2006, 06:19

Large Echinodorus species are notorius nutrient hogs. They do great for some time, then exhibit the symptoms you describe. The root systems are quite deep and wide-spreading, necessatating a four or five inch deep substrate in the plant's area. Also, Laterite is VERY helpful in keeping large swords healthy.

The cure is twofold- more aquarium fetilizer balls (half-dozen or so) pushed deep around the roots and increase your Co2 to one bubble per sec if possible.You will most likely lose more leaves for a while, but new ones should lack the problem.

I've been keeping planted tanks for many years, and the above procedure works for me, as I'm partial to larger swords (bleheri, parvaflorus).

As to the Anubias, they routinely have older leaves get tatty like that over time, thus I believe the problems are unrelated.

The tennelus and cardamine don't have the nutrient requirements that your sword does, which, coupled with your fertilizer regime, should keep them looking good as they do.

Good luck,
Dave

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 24 Jan 2006, 08:11

From my experience, I also think it looks like the fish are causing that.

I would follow djw66's advice, but also make sure there is green food in the tank 24/7, as most vegetarian plecs need a constant supply of greenfood, and if it runs out, they will turn on your plants!

zebrastorey · Post by **zebrastorey** » 24 Jan 2006, 09:48

my gold nugget eats the amazon sword plant leaves in my tank and leaves them looking the same as your pics

Zebrapl3co · Post by **Zebrapl3co** » 24 Jan 2006, 15:03

What is the size of you tank and how many watts are you pumping into it? The type of light?
Also, how tall is your tank? Where did you put you swords? Is it under a shade? Do you have floating plants?
Look into these variables, then you might be able to determine your problems.

FuglyDragon · Post by **FuglyDragon** » 24 Jan 2006, 22:26

50 gallon, but its 24" deep 36x15x24
4x 3' 30w + 1x 18" 20w Fluro plant tubes (Arcadia)
140 w = approx 2.8 / g a little low I know but all have reflectors and I cant physically fit anymore under the hood.
(I will never ever buy a bevelled tank again, those 2 corners are costing me about 40w's of light I need)

KH is 4.0 (JBL Test Kit) which at ph 6.8 gives me about 19ppm CO2 again a little low but I do supplement with Seachem Excel daily

I have watched the Nuggets for long periods and have yet to see them rasping the leaves with any regularity, have even watched in dark with IR video camera. They are fed plec tabs daily plus zuchinni about once a week.

Only answer I didnt want to hear was its the nuggets ;) no way in the world will I ever be able to get them out with out breaking down the tank.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 25 Jan 2006, 10:21

I would feed a piece of zucchini that lasts for most of the night, each night. These fish are almost permanent grazers, so they want something to eat all the time.

--
Mats

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 25 Jan 2006, 11:04

I would think the nuggets are the least likely candidates.

I had exactly the same damage with Farlowella and Otocinclus.

The nugget I used to have never left the substrate much.

Zebrapl3co · Post by **Zebrapl3co** » 25 Jan 2006, 17:22

The light is fine, a little low on nitrate (N03) and phosphate (PO4). You should be aiming for 20 - 30 ppm NO3 and 1-2 ppm PO4.
How often do you trim your leaves? It might be that your old leaves are getting old and needs to die off before new ones can grow. You can help it along by trimming your old leaves more often to allow new leaves to grow. All those Amano tanks you've seen had their bad leaves trim almost daily. That's why they look so good. If you just leave it unattended, then you'll get a lot of dying old leaves.
The yellow dots on the other hand is an indication of some missing chemical. I can't remember what, I need to check that out ...

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 26 Jan 2006, 18:11

You should be aiming for 20 - 30 ppm NO3 and 1-2 ppm PO4

Zebrapl3co, I just read a very intersting article in PFK (well respected fishkeeping magazine in the UK), which said that any measurable level of either N03 or P04 on a home test kit is more than enough for exponential growth in higher plants. Any excess is just used by algae.

How does this bear out with your experiences?

WhitePine · Post by **WhitePine** » 26 Jan 2006, 20:17

The Anubias in my river tank ends up looking the same as yours... and it is from the Nuggets. I only had nuggets in there for a while... so it could not have been from anyone else. I agree with zebrapleco3....try trimming you older leaves. It will help with the plants looking healthier....and allow new growth to fill in.

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » 27 Jan 2006, 02:27

You may want to try adding a trace nutrient fertilizer to your tank. Sword plants especially will show that loss of tissue between veins when there is a nutrient deficiency in the aquarium. Yellowing leaves often indicates an iron deficiency while the webbing pattern or loss of tissue between the veins is often attributed to a lack of potassium.

Sword plants will take nutrients from the substrate and therefore can be fertilized with tablets directly at the roots. They are voracious feeders and will actually cannibalize themselves if there's not sufficient nutirition in the substrate.

Anubias is a bit more tricky. Is it growing in the gravel substrate, or is it attached to a piece of wood? I find that Anubias does best when attached to wood. It probably will not do well if the rhizome is covered by substrate.

The catfishes in your tank may be grazing on the leaves, but with some likelihood they are going after the dying parts of the plant and furthering existing damage rather than being the initial cause of the damage.

Hope this helps.

Mindy · Post by **Mindy** » 27 Jan 2006, 08:09

I had both a Farlowella and a team of Otos in my tank, which includes a big A. Sword amongst the planting, and they didn't scrape it like that. The only time I'd seen that was when I had a big bristlenose and he completely skeletalised the plants.

A display tank at my LFS had a rogue Gold Nugget in there that they could never catch and he did quite a number on the plants...

Zebrapl3co · Post by **Zebrapl3co** » 27 Jan 2006, 17:01

racoll wrote:...Zebrapl3co, I just read a very intersting article in PFK (well respected fishkeeping magazine in the UK), which said that any measurable level of either N03 or P04 on a home test kit is more than enough for exponential growth in higher plants. Any excess is just used by algae.

How does this bear out with your experiences?

AWK! did he say it was a CO2 tank?... let me re-read the first post again.
Whew.
It depends on how you look at it. What the PFK said was escentially correct. But what kind of tank was he implying?
For a normal no CO2 with medium light, what they said is true. High nitrate can only lead to algae problem and bad for your fish.
But for a tank pumped wiht CO2 with a pretty good sets of light, then that's a different story. You'll need the added nutrients to keep up with the light and CO2. Otherwise, you'll end up with alot of something and short on others, which eventually will lead to another algae problem or malnutricous plant.