Help - why did he die?

3bdesigns · Post by **3bdesigns** » 13 Jan 2006, 15:20

I know it is hard to determine death in these guys, but when I came home from work yesterday, my yellow seam (that's what I called him) was dead. There is a pic of him in my album.

He was swimming around just doing his thing when I left for work and deader than a doornail when I got home. When I looked at him, he didn't appear to have any marks on him - he looked good other than being dead.

And then to top it off, my Queen was also DEAD! Definitely was not a good pleco day. They were both juveniles, but in different tanks. The Queen did have a mark on her, that she had when I got her and she was in a medicine tank until her wound healed. But she turned all white (it was like someone erased her stripes) and dead. When I looked at her, she appeared to have something sharp in her lower lip that was also coming out her side gill on that same side. Her underside of belly appeared to be very sucked in. I only had her a few days - so it could be she was sick before I got her.

When a pleco starts to turn white, I know they are dying. Is there a way to treat them to try to reverse it? Are there any particular medications to use on them?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 13 Jan 2006, 16:14

I can probably explain the death of the Queen or similar - the Mango Pleco (), I'm not sure about.

The sunken stomach is an indication of starvation, something that can be VERY hard to recover from, particularly if the fish is in a tank with other (big) food competitors. If this is what killed the fish, it's likely that it hasn't been feeding very well for a longer period, probably a couple of weeks or longer. This, combined with the stress of being moved, and perhaps also different water conditions, will have increased the pressure on your fish, and this "tipped it over the edge", but it was probably destined that way anyways.

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Mats

3bdesigns · Post by **3bdesigns** » 13 Jan 2006, 16:35

Thanks for that. I was wondering about her eating. I tried to spot feed her myself and she seemed disinterested. This is the 2nd Queen that I have had this happen to. I have them just a few days and then they die. They were both purchased from a live fish store and they too only had them a few days (the exotic plecos like that go quickly). They are so pretty and loosing a $50 fish after a few days is REALLY frustrating.

I was reading about the queen that they prefer a fine sand bottom, which I now have a 3 gal tank all set up with a good current in it, fine sand bottom, and 2 different caves in hopes of finding another one. Is there a reputable place to get one? Maybe getting the juvenile ones like I have had aren't helping matters either.

I tend to lean towards the $45+ plecos - so I hate losing them and want to be sure they live as long as possible. I seem to have horrible luck with the Queens.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 13 Jan 2006, 17:24

Something to consider:
You need to check your water condition - nitrate, nitrite and ammonia, and ideally also check the pH and hardness.

Nitrate is an indication of how clean the water is in the tank. It should always be below 50 ppm, preferrably nearer 10 or so. Nitrate is mildly toxic to the fish and affects it's ability to "feel good", but it's not terribly bad.

Nitrite or ammonia should not be present in a healthy tank that has been running for more than a few weeks - if it is, your biological filter system isn't working as it should, and you need to find out why it's not working - usually because it's been cleaned "to well", for example cleaned with tap-water. Nitrite and ammonia are both quite bad for the fish (highly toxic), and anything above 1ppm is likely to be harmfull for anything but the most hardy species. [Hypancistrus species are not particularly hardy in this manner].

pH and hardness aren't very critical in and off themselves, as long as it's somewhere in the "normal" range, pH 6-8 or so and hardness isn't "liquid concrete", but big changes in either or both of them can be harmfull to the fish's osmosis and/or electrolytic balance. Particularly important if you have different water quality than the LFS, you need to slowly transition the fish from the shop water to your local water. If the shop and you have tap-water from the same source in the tanks, it shouldn't cause a big problem. But if you have well-water, or one side uses RO water and the other doesn't, then it could cause a problem.

Well, if you have a local shop which have them in stock, you should be able to determine if they are eating or not - look at the tummy region, if it's sunken in, then don't buy it.

A healthy pleco should have a somewhat convex (bulging) tummy, but not dramatically so [at least not at the shop]. A bit like someone who eats a little bit too much compared to a "keep fit" diet, but not "quaffing 15 pints at the bar every night" sort of tummy.

A 3gal tank is probably OK for quarantine of small (2-3" pleco), one at a time - the real difficulty with small tanks is that the water goes from good to bad in no time at all, so if you get some food left in there [which is likely if the fish is poor eater], it may well destroy your water and kill the fish. I would recommend a tank of 10-20g capacity for keeping these type of fish, even when quarantining. [Yes, I'm sure it can be done in a 3 gal tank, but given a choice of which is better and easier, a 10+g tank is definitely the choice I'd make].

A more fully grown fish will have more "reserve" before it dies from malnutrition, but bigger fish also makes water dirty quicker when transported, so may not be in better condition.

Generally, if the fish dies in a few days from purchase, and your water is good, the shop should give you replacement (or credit to purchase another one later, if they are out of stock). Take the fish and a water-sample to the shop - they should be able to determine what the water is like.

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Mats

3bdesigns · Post by **3bdesigns** » 13 Jan 2006, 17:35

All my tanks have excellent chemical balance and I keep the pH around 7, and my LFS is around 7-8 so we are both the same there. My tanks are all well established (been up for three years or more). I do watch the nitrite and nitrates levels quite extensively. Although tetras are pretty hardy in terms of fish, some are very sensitive (neons, rummy nose, cardinal, emporer) so I do watch that quite a bit.

I think my problem is not good enough inspection of the plecos when I buy them (my own fault of course) but sometimes it's hard to contain yourself when something cool like a Queen comes in.

All my plecos have "full" bellies and eat great - they chase the veggie tabs as soon as I drop them in and just gobble them right up.

I understand what you mean about the 3gal being hard to keep managed....I think I will change my quanrantine tank to one of my 10 gal. I also have a 20 gal that I haven't set up yet, so it may be a good option too.

laurab5 · Post by **laurab5** » 13 Jan 2006, 17:54

I agree with matsp. You need to check out all water conditions. Mine are not sensitive to ph or TDS at all. You also should get them a 10 gallon and purchase either 3-4 juveniles or purchase 2 that will get you a trio. If you want i can post a picture of my tank. I would try frybabies, Barbie has used here several times. They have Wild Caught QA's in for $18 each, and they can probably sex them. Exoticfinds.net is another place i have heard good things about.

Post by **Barbie** » 14 Jan 2006, 04:12

When you say you "keep your pH around 7", just exactly how are you doing that? pH is actually the least of the worries for most fish, as long as they are acclimated into it and allowed time to adjust to the change. When you adjust the pH in the tank it can cause very extreme bounces and be far more stressful to the fish than being kept in water that doesn't exactly match the parameters they originally came from, IMO. There's a sticky at the top of this forum section. If you could provide all of the information asked for there it will go a long way towards helping you get answers that might actually solve what's happening to the fish.

Barbie

troi · Post by **troi** » 14 Jan 2006, 19:22

MatsP wrote:I can probably explain the death of the Queen
...
The sunken stomach is an indication of starvation, something that can be VERY hard to recover from, particularly if the fish is in a tank with other (big) food competitors.
Mats

This is a bit insane, I will admit, but I once got excieted and bought a King Tiger without looking at its belly. On closer home inspection, the belly was very concave. fish wouldn't eat. So, I held the fish over the tank and fed it thawed blood worms, one little worm at a time from tweezers. You have to dangle the worm in the mouth and sorta tuck it in but don't force--let reflex take over. the fish spit out most of the offerings and passed others out the gills but did consume enough to get the metabolism "kick started." After that I fed the frozen gel form of Formula II, which has krill and other meat products in with the veggies, since the King, like the Queen, likes meat.

Once the fish, sole fish in the tank, started eating, it became so peppy it crawled out of the tank, fell on the floor, took a walk to the middle of the doorway and expired dead center, where my sig. other almost skewered a foot on the erect dorsal spine.

Stressed Koi can go anorexic and have to be force fed to restart the eating reflex, which is where I learned the trick.

troi
PS--Queens and Kings just like to die as soon as you get them home. I must have lost 6 queens within 36 hours before I started mail ordering from breeders.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 17 Jan 2006, 11:18

LOL. Force feeding a pleco, who'd have thought it...

You learn something nrew every day... Thanks for the account, sorry that the fish didn't make it in the long run.

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Mats

3bdesigns · Post by **3bdesigns** » 17 Jan 2006, 15:53

I'll try that feeding thing if I come across this problem again. Queen are difficult - great - figures the one pleco I really like is one that dies easily!

Just like my cardinal and rummy nose tetras - they die when you look at them funny it seems!

troi · Post by **troi** » 17 Jan 2006, 18:41

3bdesigns wrote: Queen are difficult - great - figures the one pl*co I really like is one that dies easily!

They are ok if you make it thru the first 48 hours. I find most wild caughts come in with this awful, resistant parasite that looks like large yellow ich. The several times I got Queens from the LFS, the ich didn't show in the shop but showed up over night at home. I am sure it was not from my tanks.

When I bought tiny Queens and zebras from a breeder, mail order, they were fine. Those I got a year ago are still around.

troi

3bdesigns · Post by **3bdesigns** » 18 Jan 2006, 14:22

I really want some zebras, but the cost makes me sick a little, but the thought of them not making it is worse. I've already wasted $150 in dead Queens. Is there a cheaper outlet for zebras?

Post by **Barbie** » 18 Jan 2006, 17:40

Adult zebras are wholesaling for about $300 a piece, when they are available. They are listed on the No Export list from Brazil, so the stock is limited pretty much to what has already been imported and what people are able to tank raise. There are no cheaper alternatives that I know of, sorry.

I'd definitely recommend figuring out what's causing your losses in the L260 before I'd venture into something more expensive. The Queens were the fish I used as a test pleco when I decided I wanted to start working with Hypancistrus in general. They are fairly undemanding as Hypancistrus go, as long as they are healthy when they arrive and water parameters are kept clean.

Barbie