Spotted Corys - Dieing, temps to high? Or is it NTD?

ttait · Post by **ttait** » 18 Jan 2006, 16:08

75G Tank, New, cycled with Bio-Spira, 82F/28C, Lightly planted right now, Substrate Eco-Complete/Florite/Gravel, CO2 controlled pH 6.8, 3 dKH, 3dGH, 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrite. 12 Cardinal Tetras, 6 Spotted Corys from LFS. Temps are high because I plan to put in Discus.

I added 8 Cardinals, then 4 more and the 6 corys a few days later. All from the same LFS. No obvious signs of illness.
24 Hours later, Two Corys had very red, imflamed gills on one side only. Popeye on one eye of one. Slight signs of pink on one gill of two others. Move all 6 corys to quarantine bucket with airstone, heater. Sickest one died in transfer.

Examined him under a 20X scope. No large parasites in gill area, but some grey slime, also fishy smell (more than normal?). Also apeared to be something moving, almost shimmering in the light, but too small to make out.

Switched on UV on 75G tank. Added salt (1 tsp/US Gal) to quarantine bucket. In the AM all still alive, Cardinals still look fine... Added some Amquel to bucket. I plan to set up a real quarantine tank. No time this AM to examine them. Now what?

Do I treat the corys with meds? Return them? Is this species not suitable for 82F temperature?

I can't find much hard data on the Spotted Cory (exact species not known, but looks like the photos shown on this site).

Thanks-

Tim

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 18 Jan 2006, 16:26

Very few species of Corydoras are suitable as tankmates for Discus. The usual specie kept as a tankmate for discus is the .

There are some others that tolerate higher temps, but most like temps below 22'C (72'F).

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Mats

ttait · Post by **ttait** » 18 Jan 2006, 18:20

Mats- Thanks for the reply. Sorry for forum confusion.

I would like to get some Sterbai, but they seem very hard to find here (Boston Area) in the LFSs. Even the best one I know of, Tropic Isle (and the only one that sells Discus), didn't have any.

I need to get something soon, because the Cardinals let a lot food get by, and they won't bottom feed.

I guess I will have to try mail order - anyone know of any good ones in the US?

Tim

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 18 Jan 2006, 18:29

C. sterbai, as far as I understand, are available in tank-bred form from asian fish-farmers, so it should be possible for some LFS in your area to find a wholesaler that have C. sterbai. It took my LFS a few weeks to actually get some, but if you have more than a single LFS that you think could get some, ask around and see if they can get some from their wholesaler.

I'm sure there are some internet suppliers that have these fish, but the fish shouldn't cost VERY much each, I paid around $12 (7 GB pounds each), so unless you are getting a big bunch of them, you'll probably pay 50% of the total price in shipping. And of course, you can't see the fish before you buy...

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Mats

Post by **Shane** » 18 Jan 2006, 19:28

Very few species of Corydoras are suitable as tankmates for Discus.

I would strongly disagree with this. There are dozens of Amazonian and Orinoco cory spp. that are found alongside Discus. 82F is probably warmer than many wild Discus and/or corys would ever see, but is not extreme. Throughout our trip last week we found the temps to vary little between the various rivers (most were 80 or 81F). I really do not know why so many Discus hobbyists keep their fish so warm as they are not found in these temps in the wild. It could be a by-product of tropical fish breeders using high temps to get fast growth rates, but I am not an expert in this area.

There are some others that tolerate higher temps, but most like temps below 22'C (72'F).

Mats, Many may need a dip that low to initiate spawning, but only a handful of southern cone spp. would normally live at temps that low. 72F is way too low of a maintenance temp for the vast majority of corys in the hobby.
-Shane

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 18 Jan 2006, 19:38

Ok, thanks Shane for correcting me.

I agree, that it seems that a lot of people seem to keep their fish at higher temperatures than in nature - why this is, is an interesting question.

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Mats

ttait · Post by **ttait** » 18 Jan 2006, 21:19

The data on the web seems widely varied on Cory's... the Eheim fish database indicates the max temp for Sterbai is 25C... here it is 28C. Liveaquaria.com indicates 25C. But it is the only one I can find reference to for being kept with discus.

I am basing the 82F/28C temperature off of recommended minimum temps for keeping Discus that I have seen. I have no 1st hand experience, but would like to be able to keep them at lower temps if possible.

The only Cory's I can find on the web referenced with Discus tanks is Sterbai... so I ordered some from http://www.drsfostersmith.com ... Hopefully they work out because returning them could be difficult!

Tim

lotsabettas · Post by **lotsabettas** » 18 Jan 2006, 21:24

ttait wrote:Mats- Thanks for the reply. Sorry for forum confusion.

I would like to get some Sterbai, but they seem very hard to find here (Boston Area) in the LFSs. Even the best one I know of, Tropic Isle (and the only one that sells Discus), didn't have any.

I need to get something soon, because the Cardinals let a lot food get by, and they won't bottom feed.

I guess I will have to try mail order - anyone know of any good ones in the US?

Tim

if youre willing to mail order http://www.frybabies.com/cat_temp.php?cat=catfish has sterbai

ttait · Post by **ttait** » 19 Jan 2006, 16:28

I returned the spotted cory's. One more was surely on deaths door, his spine was severely kinked. The others looked like they might be OK, no more red gills anyhow.

But, two Cardinals died rapidly with symptoms that look a lot like NTD (http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/disea ... isease.htm) - red stripe eroded, not schooling, restless at night, gapsing for air at top, belly kind of bulging. One more has lost part of his red stripe. I think he will have to be removed. sigh. The rest seem OK at the moment.

Can UV kill the spores from protozoa that causes NTD? Do Cory's get NTD?

I dropped the temp back to 80F to see if that helps, and adjused the spray bar for more surface turbulence. I will do a bottom cleaning and 20% water change tonight.

At the LFS (PetSmart) when I got the fish, the employee added some more water to the bag from the _african cichlid_ tank before I could stop her... I wonder if that was part of the problem - Although I suspect they keep all the tanks with the same water conditions. I have good luck with that store over the past serveral years with my old 29G tank.

Quarantine tank is now setup for Sterbai that should be here friday.

Tim

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 19 Jan 2006, 16:35

Are you sure it's NTD, and not just "new tank syndrome"?

You report nitrite and ammonia as 0, but have you tested for nitrate?

If you have "no nitrate", then there's something wrong with your cycling process, because the PRESENSE of nitrate is an indication that the good bacteria is working.

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Mats

ttait · Post by **ttait** » 20 Jan 2006, 03:35

There is a trace amount of Nitrate. But with plants, CO2, and strong lighting it is not unusual to see no Nitrates. In my old heavily planted 29G with lots swordtails (started of as a few:) I had to *add* KNO3 to prevent Phosphates from being in excess, ie plants were Nitrate limited. At least until I switched to NutriFin (from Tetra Crisps) because they spec a Max Phosphate content.

I only have 6 Telanthera roseafolia at moment, but they are sending out small O2 bubble streams when the lights (260W CF) are on.

This is the 1st Time I have tried Bio-Spira (from Marineland) to cycle a tank, but it came very highly recommened from a Discus owner, and it seems to be working. The initial ammonia before I put it in was about 0.25ppm, and the morning after I added it, it was 0. I never saw Nitrites.

I am not positive it is NTD, I have never had it before though I kept some Head & Tail light Tetras. But it does seem to match. The rest seem to school happily without any gasping, suggesting it is not a common environmental problem. I have one of those SeaChem ammonia indicaters in the tank, it shows pure yellow (safe), and a Nitrite test also show nothing.

As I look now at night, I see the school hovering over the bottom as you would expect, but two are hanging around the top in the corners. I expect they are goners soon.

If it is NTD, it is passed through feces and I would expect Cory's to be very exposed to it. This stinks. I may have to break down the whole tank and bleach it. At least the Discus are not in it yet.

Tim

ttait · Post by **ttait** » 24 Jan 2006, 22:45

Quick update, I removed the peat from the filter and added some charcoal, plus dosed with medicated anti-parasite food from Jungle. At least one fish pooped out what might have been a worm.

Fish loss seems to have stopped. Maybe the new tank leached some toxins into the water? Hopefully it was not NTD. Fish store maintains the Cardinals are captive bred if that matters.

The Sterbai are in a quarantine tank, all arrived healthy from liveaquaria, except one wasn't a Sterbai, but I think an Emerald cory, for which I am being issued a credit.

Tim

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 25 Jan 2006, 09:41

ttait wrote:Quick update, I removed the peat from the filter and added some charcoal, plus dosed with medicated anti-parasite food from Jungle. At least one fish pooped out what might have been a worm.

Charcoal is added to filters to REMOVE chemical contaminants in the water - typically, this will remove any form of medication. Maybe you should use the anti-parasite without the charcoal.

Fish loss seems to have stopped. Maybe the new tank leached some toxins into the water? Hopefully it was not NTD. Fish store maintains the Cardinals are captive bred if that matters.

Good that no more fish are dying.

The Sterbai are in a quarantine tank, all arrived healthy from liveaquaria, except one wasn't a Sterbai, but I think an Emerald cory, for which I am being issued a credit.

Tim

Emerald cory = ? In that case, I guess you can keep it in the discus tank. They are quite tolerant to reasonably high temperatures. I keep mine together with C. sterbai and at 26'C/78'F...

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Mats

ttait · Post by **ttait** » 25 Jan 2006, 14:31

The food is medicated, so the water should be ok I think. I usually filter the tap water through charcoal (drinking water filter) before it goes into the aquarium, but the 1st filling I used a Python and tap water direct, and let it age 48hrs in the aquarium, plus some Bio-safe. I wonder if that was part of the problem? The changing water is charcoal filtered.

I think it is a B. Splendens. Even if he can handle the temps (28C) He may get lonely by himself if the others won't let him school...

Thanks for the help-

Tim

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 25 Jan 2006, 14:56

B. splendens will not be unhappy with some other cories, they'll go together, in my experience. Of course, if you have space, you may want to get some more of them, say five or so - they are a bit more robust than the usual cories - but they grow very slowly in my experience. They're fine at high temps too.

You can separate Brochis-species from other Callichyidae speceis by the fact that Brochis has more than 10 rays in the dorsal fin, whilst Corydoras species have 6 or so.

As to your tap water and filtration of that - carbon filter will remove certain types of "badness", such as pesticides, from the water. But if it's normal, city-wide, tap-water, it _SHOULD_ be pretty OK anyways - not perfect, but chemicals like pesticides should hopefully not be present.

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Mats