Theory on one cause for Dropsy

betta blue · Post by **betta blue** » 22 Jan 2007, 02:18

I know I'm a novice on aquariums but I lost a beautiful fish to dropsy. I appreciate everything I've read but I've been watching my "other sweetheart" and though I know little about fish, I've listened to a lot about exercise about people. I have slated a 10 gal. tank for my Blue Betta. I watch him and he only moves slow with his 5 gal. tank. He's probably full grown (again, I know he's quite majestic in his body size and finnage...so assuming he's older than any of my other Betta's). I just want to post this somewhere cause I think he needs a bigger tank to exercise his body muscles. He's going to get a 10 gal. this week but maybe sometimes "dropsy" is a result of lack of proper excercise that a fish gets? And they are not able to exercise their muscles including bowels? It's just a viewpoint from someone who watches her fish probably too much! Paronoid or not, Blue gets a bigger home!

Betta Blue
Shar

betta blue · Post by **betta blue** » 22 Jan 2007, 02:47

Sorry but I do know my lack of experience, but I also believe in keeping the fish that have acquainted themselves or at least accepted each other to keep them in the same aquarium. With a "mature" Betta, an albino bristlenose that I just put into an aquarium full of algae who thinks "she" just went to heaven and after two days of eating, needed a time out in the frog's cave, and an african dwarf frog...they have all gotten comfortable with each other. It took some time for the Betta to accept the frog. I don't think it's to any of my guys interests to change a community tank that appear to be working...so they all go into the 10 gal. The Albino seems to be smart enough to take breaks from eating the Algae. But she has grown substantially in size since being put in with a lot of natural algae. My Plec has grown to close to 5 inches but he still lives in his 10 gal with one Betta. I am waiting for a 30 gallon tank for him. With a 10 gal. home, I believe the albino bristlenose can grow, the dwarf frog has space and the Blue Betta can exercise and the community stays in tact but in a bigger space?

Just my novice theories!

Shar
Betta Blue

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 22 Jan 2007, 07:50

Several diseases are implicated in in dropsy. Rather than a disease on it's own it is more generally a symptom of organ failure and the causes are many. One thing that has nothing to do with it, particularly with regard to bettas, is confined spaces and lack of exercise. Millions of Bettas are raised annually in containers of one liter or less around the world. The stage is set for the infections that may result in the dropsy symtom when water quality has been substandard and allowing runaway bacterial blooms.
More details about dropsy can probably delved up by a search on Google or a trip to the library. There are no reliable cures. Most try to eliminate all infected fish and improve the living conditions.
Sorry, but this is not a curable condition.

betta blue · Post by **betta blue** » 24 Jan 2007, 23:18

Thank you for your advise but I still believe that if I get an animal, I'm responsible for their living conditions to maintain them. They look at me to take care of them to the best of "my ability". I am getting a 10 gal. tank ready for Blue. The tank my Red Betta died in has another betta in it. The quality of water is exactly the same as the other 3 tanks if not better cause I like the filter system in the 5 gal. better than the 10 gal. ones. I see my Betta's in the 10 gal. tanks swimming and right now, it's far better than what my poor Blue is. The Oto's, bristlenose including the Albino and of course my dear Plec are doing fine...as well as the two dwarf frogs...one in Red's old tank. The glass catfish are doing well too. I put a lot of blame on myself for Red with dropsy but the tank was not the cause. All my tanks get cleaned at the same time. With the live plants that are all doing well, I hope I'm providing a safe environment for all my fish. As I've said, I am a novice on all of this and trying with my "education" to provide a safe environment for them. I spent probably close to 24 hours on the internet reading exactly the same stuff about dropsy. I'm sure you're right but I'm still moving my Blue Betta, his friends...a dwarf frog and an albino bristlenose into the new 10 gal. tank. I'm still waiting for a 30 gal. tank that I should be able to have by the end of the month for my 5 inch Plec. I also appreciate that I will need a 50 gal. one to continue for him but that will be sometimes this year. I still use the 1/2 inch per fish per gal. rule.

I have 30 plus bigger snails in an old (outrageous) betta bowl that keep eating the algae tablet that I put in...still not sure what to do with them. The Apple Snail as opposed to the Betta (though I've "scrunched" little snails for the betta to eat) appears to do better at eating the small snails in my problem aquarium. I still don't know what snails I ended up inheriting. They are round but look like your normal pond snail. I have another 10 more bigger snails from Plec's tank to transfer. What do you do with bigger snails...don't get me wrong, I love my Apple Snail and have lots of times just watch it move and think its phenomenal with the antennaes, the lung, etc... Maybe something is wrong with me, but I'm abhorred to hear people put beautiful Betta's inside tiny bowls. I love my Plec, my Albino, my Bristlenose who hides and my two glass catfish. They all need their proper space and environment.

Sorry if I'm getting a bit emotional but Red (my demised betta) actually followed and stayed as close to me as he could when I quaranteened him. He would swim around even though he had no energy, just to be by me where I was swimming. I know that I am looked at as the food giver, but Red was so sick and still only moved when I moved. We spent his last two days together and I spent the night with him so he wasn't alone. There's more to fish than I think we know. I have a cat and a dog. Red was no different. I used to think Red was so beautiful in his "plummage" and his plummage was always more than Blue's. Blue's fins are over two inches and his body size is about two inches. Red was about the same size body wise.

Sorry for going on about this...

As a note about catfish, my albino has grown about two and a half times in width and size when I transferred it to Blue's aquarium (after Red died) that was full of algae and cleaned it in one and a half weeks. The female albino bristlenose has cleaned all the windows, a castle we got as a present at Christmas and a lava rock. What a worker! She takes time off when she't too full...not a shy one at all...she's cleaning as I'm typing

Shar

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 25 Jan 2007, 00:59

In all probability the Betta with dropsy was sick when you bought it. It is an insidious slow developing problem.
Nothing wrong with becoming attached to your fish. Having bred Bettas commercially I found it hard to become attached to any greaat extent. When one becomes commercially involved in the tropical fish business the motivations are different than for a hobbyist. Losses are all a part of doing business so they are little more than part of the realities of doing business. Annoyances and lost investments. It is the same for all businesses dealing in livestock.
I have owned and operated both a retail shop and wholesale breeding operations and I have lost enough fish that it doesn't bother me.
Now that I have tackled fancy pleco breeding as a hobbyist the losses are far more significant than they were in my past.

betta blue · Post by **betta blue** » 25 Jan 2007, 01:46

Thank you Larry for understanding the difference between a breeder and a "novice hobbist". Cause you are a breeder, I look to you for information and appreciate any information you give me without my emotionalism on my attachment to my fish. I had a lovely neighbour that has had fish for a long time and the first thing she said was "I hope you didn't name them". Afraid they are all named and other than my major snail bowl I actually use a magnifying glass every morning to make sure everyone is okay. When I started all this aquarium stuff, I knew there would be mortalities, and I do appreciate that this is part of life...but as a hobbyist, and a new one at that, I just want to do everything I can for some beautiful fish I have and took the responsibility of taking care of them when I purchased them. Please don't get me wrong on any of my "requests for information" on this site. It's the only one I go onto. Though I love my Betta's, I have gone onto to the wonderfully peaceful catfish...plec, bristlenose, glass catfish...I loved Plec the first time I saw him! And I think he's a wonderfully handsome fish and growing beautifully! He's a special fish...but so are all of my other guys including the Oto's that have gotten to be quite active these days. I love taking care of my fish and I love watching them...but anyone that puts a Betta in a small container has no love for the fish cause they need room to swim and stretch those beautiful fins and I question the small room that I wouldn't put any animal in. I may not be an expert on fish, but I do see the difference between 10 gal. and 5 gal. on a full grown Betta. Blue will be in his new 10 gal. within the week and I do believe on putting the balance of the "community" fish he's lived with in his old tank in it as well...probably for the Albino bristlnose best interest as she's grown so much with eating so much algae. I have a "baby Betta" less than an inch with no finnage in one 5 gallon...I will look at another baby Betta and then if there isn't a "baby" albino bristlenose available in the next month, then I will try another couple of Oto's.

Thanks to this forum, you taught me so much! I do not overcrowd any of my small aquariums and that's thanks to the information from here. All of my fish thank you (and one apple snail and two dwarf frogs).

Thanks to breeders as yourself, I get a lot of information on my "pets". Thank you and I do appreciate all the information you send me!

Shar

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 25 Jan 2007, 02:35

Well anthropomorphism is nothing new. Just keep in mind that Bettas evolved to live and breed in mud puddles and as long as the water is clean enough they could care less whether they are in a one liter jar or a 125 gallon tank. Fish don't think they just do what they are evolved to do.
Many of the killiefish do the same. Wild bettas are usually found in the forest in puddles a few feet square and maybe only 2 inches deep.

betta blue · Post by **betta blue** » 25 Jan 2007, 03:03

Thank you for the quick response but afraid I have spent about fifteen years in south east asia and the word you used that I had to look up for the meaning cause I had never heard it before "anthropomorphism" is correct for me but I don't look as myself as being anything like it...I just care. Guess you haven't been over there to see the monsoons and how much rain they get...maybe for a short term they can live in small areas...but as I said, you haven't seen the rain come done and the water does last...in addition, maybe you haven't experienced the rice fields, but there's more water than a liter. Sorry if I'm going on a bit...but if there is anything I do know, it is south east asia...it's where we import from and I've spent since 1993 importing from there but travelled it for 5 years prior. We may get "farmed fish" from there...but please don't tell me what they live in in their natural habitat. They're not unlike the catfish...they do have an environment and cause they can live in less water, doesn't make it their environment.

I apologize for my reaction to your reply but I've spent too many years overseas to not react to your statement of how little water they have...it's actually only for a far shorter period of time than most of us realize. The people feel it too! Go to Chiang Mai and find out why the New Year for them is dousing you in water! But there still is water in all the rivers.

I may know nothing about fish...but I do know about SE Asia.

Shar

betta blue · Post by **betta blue** » 25 Jan 2007, 04:01

Anthropomorphism...yes, in rectrospect...that is where I am. It's totally up to me to give the living conditions for my "fish,frogs and apple snail" to survive...so yes, that's where I'm at. And I think as an aquariumist, that's where I should be. I am the individual that makes sure they survive and I will keep taking on that role. Devine...no...caring...yes. That's who I am. And I will continue to do the best for my fish, my cat, my dog and any person I meet. It's all the same...if you don't care about animals including fish...you don't care about people. I've never used the word anthropomorphism in my life...didn't even know it's meaning til I checked it in Google. I am responsible, I do care but I don't fake myself out for thinking I can do anything other than do the best I can with the information that is available.

Again, I totally appreciate the knowledge you have with fish, but just maybe put some empathy into it. You may be surprised at what you will find.

Shar

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 25 Jan 2007, 08:41

Hi Shar,
I'm sort of new, too. I used to keep fish with my dad when I was a child and teenager. Now I am 40 with my own daughter and have re-entered the hobby. I am so very sorry for your loss of Red. I have had my fish for only a very short time and have recently lost 3 in my last purchase of 6 fish total, causes unknown, and lost one of my original catfish, cause unknown but I suspect he had been weakened over time from having lost a pectoral fin before I got him. I felt not just loss but personal responsibility. So I can empathize with how you feel.

I have observed that my fish, (juvenile corydoras and danios) do each have their personalities and even their own unique routines. I can identify them as individuals and after watching them I have learned some of their habits and favorite places in the tank.

And when my albino cory started ailing, my female Corydoras Elegans followed the sick albino everywhere and sat quietly next to him/her. She would leave only to eat and then come back to sit near her sick friend...and even when she left she seemed hesitant, always being the last one to join the feast. So, when I could, I would drop food pellets as close to where they were sitting as I could. I may be anthropomorophi...uh...I can't spell it, but anyway, I may be reading human thoughts into the fish's actions. But to me, it did appear to be friendship, and a very loyal one at that. I will never be a fish so I will never know for sure. I can only guess. But it's a nice thought. I do think there is more to fish than most of us are comfortable thinking about. Especially those of us who enjoy eating fish.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 25 Jan 2007, 10:29

As dropsy is usually caused by a bacterial infection, why not try a few measures to reduce the levels of bacteria in the tank.......

The tannins from wood and leaves are known to inhibit bacterial activity.

Try adding some Oak leaves and a piece of fresh bogwood to the tank.

This will also greatly reduce any algae you have, and by making the tank as close to the natural habitat you will reduce stress in the betta. Always use a backing on the tank, and try to create areas where the betta can escape from view.

With a small tank such as a ten gallon, it would be economical to buy RO water from the LFS or food store. You can then give them soft acidic water. This should also reduce bacteria levels, and also make the betta feel more at home.

I would perhaps not keep snails or plecs (or anything else) with the betta. The mess they make will create a breeding ground for bacteria.

Temperature could be another factor. I don't know how warm your tank is, but from what I gather bettas like it warm (27C+). Temps too low are known to make fish more susceptible to disease.

I would also perhaps try getting your next betta from a different source.

Best of luck

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 25 Jan 2007, 10:59

Another point to raise is the age of the fish.

Bettas are short lived creatures. I think the norm is about 2-4 years.

Perhaps your fish was in the latter part of its life by the time you purchased it.

Also, regardless of the conditions the fish lives in in the wild, a larger tank will always we a good idea. Not because of the exercise the fish will get, but because of the more stable conditions a large tank provides.

The fluctuating hardness, pH and temp in a small tank will increase stress in the betta, reducing its lifespan further still.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 25 Jan 2007, 17:08

Hi Shar,
I admit when it comes to my fish I can be cold blooded.
I tease my best friend because he talks to his fish.
Especially his discus. I am his advisor. I try to get him to read up on them but he just says that's what I'm for. Why should he read when he can just pick my brain? Me, I just dump my discus when they refuse to spawn or eat their eggs once too often and replace them.
I guess all I am saying is that I am not emotionally attached to my fish but I also know that without providing optimum conditions I can't breed them so the fish are well cared for.
I am ruthless when it comes to culling defective or sick fish. Better to lose one than deal with an epidemic.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 26 Jan 2007, 05:33

Well Larry/Apistomaster, if you are in the business of providing people with fish that are supposed to be healthy representatives of their kind, then I don't see as how you have any choice but to do what you do and feel about it the way you do. That gives the rest of us the luxury of enjoying healthy pets and perceiving them any way we want to and should help spare the people who receive your fish from having to do such a difficult job. Thanks.

That being said, there is a bit of a sting to being told one is anthropo...oh crikey there I go again, can't spell what I can't pronounce. Anyhow, even it's not meant in that way, the term can make one feel a bit patronized and that SEEMS to be what Shar was reacting to and not to the fact that you are not attached to your fish. I think Shar seems to respect you very highly for holding your breeding program to high standards and knowing what you are doing. I know I do.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 26 Jan 2007, 14:11

I never meant to hurt feelings by using the word anthropomorphism. It is just applying human traits to animals. It is not an insult. Few owners of pets don't do that.
I do realize that the SE Asian Monsoons flood everything but it is a fact that one collects bettas from shallow still waters and not mainstream rivers. I am more into wild Bettas such as imbellis, rutilans and coccina and I know where they are collected is in the areas I described.
Unless you breed your own B. splendens all are mass produced in jars. I have raised 1000's that way in qt jars. B. splendens rarely live more than 2-1/2 years so unless you know how old yours are when you bought them they could easily be showing signs of senility. It could be worse. I raise some annual killies that are over the hill at 9 months post hatch.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 27 Jan 2007, 00:45

Wow, I didn't know how short the lifespans were for the bettas and killies. That is one thing I find missing from most fish data--what their lifespans can reasonably expected to be with competent care. When researching dog breeds, I find that info is usually readily available. Not so with fish.

How long do Sterbai usually live, assuming they don't live with ME, that is?

Do tankbred fish generally outlive their wild-caught counterparts? I guess that may be hard to answer, given that it may be hard to determine the age of wild-caught specimens. Oh well if anyone would know, I guess it would be you. THanks for any info, Larry.

p.s., as a third party observer to the discussion, I can see you meant no offense or insult, but I can see how Shar could have felt kind of put on the defensive. A lot of us who do anthropomorphize our pets...uh, well we feel very sheepish about it and feel a bit like our hands caught in a cookie jar when it's pointed out to us. As a fellow newbie with Shar, I know one can be extra self-conscious posting among experienced aquarists. EVERY comment will take on greater significance than the poster intended.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 27 Jan 2007, 01:25

Sterbai can live somewhere between 6 to 10 years.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 29 Jan 2007, 12:29

I think Ian Fuller (Coryman) reported that some of his Corys were old enouogh to get a driving license (but likely not capable!) at about 18 years old. I'm not sure about the species.

Yes, determining age of adult-wild-caughts is hard. One can approximate for most specimens, as they are usually caught within the first year as juveniles (because they are more plentyfull than more mature specimens).

So who lives longer, tank-bred or wild-caught? I would think there's no big difference... There is, however, a big difference in life-expectancy between wild and captive specimens. The captive specimen has (assuming good care) a much higher life-expectancy.

Most catfish will live several years (again, assuming good care), bigger plecos live way over teens, large pimelodids can live for 50 years in captivity (ANOTHER reason to NOT buy a Red-tail-catfish). The basic rule is "the bigger it grows, the older it can get".

As to adding this to the data-base, aside from the very obvious task of filling in 1800 or so "numbers", the more challenging task is to find some RELIABLE data to actually enter. And which data should we use: Wild or captive life-expectancy. Average or maximum - there can be a noticable difference, just like with humans, which range from average around 70-80 to maximum of around 110 - that's almost 40% difference.

--
Mats

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 29 Jan 2007, 16:23

Hi Matt,
Ian is funny. And it really is hard to provide an average age range for all the fishes we keep. So many variables affect life expectancy. I said 6 to 8 years for C. sterbai yet I would not be surprised if someone has had them live 10 or 12 years old or more.
I have rarely kept any particular fish more than 6 years
because I always find new intersts and pass them on to make room for the latest.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 29 Jan 2007, 17:02

It was me that made up the joke about driving license, if that's what you thought was funny. Ian is funny too, but I wasn't quoting him...

--
Mats

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 29 Jan 2007, 18:42

Matt,
I joined his Coryworld site and he has always been helpful. I do envy his success rate but I am early in my learning curve when it comes to trying to breed some of the new rare wild Corys. I did all the easy ones as a kid.
Still a funny thing to say.

betta blue · Post by **betta blue** » 21 Apr 2007, 23:05

Thank you Larry! I agree with you that I feel totally responsible for my fish. My tanks are clean! I have bog wood, lava stone and hiding places for some . I have live plants that produce algae that I have found algae eaters to maintain. Since I started fish, I have lost one beautiful red betta fish to dropsy and one apple snail that I can only question the number of other snails in the tank cause they used to be all over the apple and though my efforts to clear them off of him cause they said he ate snails, I think I did an injustice to him as well for putting him in there... I will take his demise on my shoulders. My three 10 gal. and two 5 gal. tanks are all happy with their communities though poor "Blue" has two chinese algae eaters when I asked for two ottos from the pet shop...just found out what they were. I'm learning a lot of stuff but as a novice, I don't take more than what I can do and also appreciate the concept of "community tanks"...been on the net big time for that...as well as "healthy tanks". As a hobbyist, I enjoy my fish daily. They give me peace and I love them for that. May I continue to be a anthropomorphism for my fish, my cat and dog! And can I continue to learn through wonderful sites like this!

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 30 Apr 2007, 18:09

I do sometimes take it emotionally hard to lose a good discus or expensive L-number of pleco that I had high hopes of breeding.
I'm still human.