Hypancistrus sp.

HaakonH · Post by **HaakonH** » 20 Feb 2007, 10:13

Hi all,

A couple of nice Hypancistrus I just got (2 of 17), both 9 cm (3,5"). I'm just curious what you guys would call them...? They are said to be tank bred, so no origin from the wild is known. I've had some feedback already, but I'd like as many opinions as possible

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 20 Feb 2007, 10:21

2 species!

the first one is a Zebra-Pleco; L046, Hypancistrus zebra.
the other one, I don't know. but he's definitely NOT a zebra. he reminds me of a Hypancistrus L333, but I'm not sure. there are so many undescribed Hypancistrus......

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 20 Feb 2007, 13:20

Hi!

First one is likely to be H. zebra with a rather odd pattern

Second seems like L333 also!!

Under what name did you bought them??

Cheers
Yann

HaakonH · Post by **HaakonH** » 20 Feb 2007, 13:50

Hi, and thanks for your opinions

They were bought as L236...Looks like an L173 (which I received more of) and some unidentified species. Markings are very clear. Another pic of it from above:

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 20 Feb 2007, 15:14

these 2 were sold as a single species?

then the people in the LFS haven't been paying attention.

the one you pictured twice is a bit of an enigma, but the one up front in that breeder is without a doubt a true zebra-plec. oddly marked, but then, no 2 zebra-plecs have the same markings. it's a real L046.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 20 Feb 2007, 15:43

I think the top fish is an L066.

I can't quite see, but the tail looks too elongated, and the caudal peduncle too narrow for L333.

The fish seems to match this L066 from the cat-elog....

HaakonH · Post by **HaakonH** » 20 Feb 2007, 20:40

They were indeed sold as the same species. I am the LFS, and these came from a rather wellknown Central-European supplier. They are supposed to come from the same breeder, and from the same parent fish. Clearly that is not the case. A few more pics from 3 of the other 15 specimens:

Individual 3:

Individual 4:

Individual 5:

And these arrived as L173, which has been supported by some skilled breeders:

El Loricadio · Post by **El Loricadio** » 20 Feb 2007, 23:26

first pic. L46 & L333

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 20 Feb 2007, 23:48

uh oh....

when you say "rather well known central European breeder" my thoughts say "Czechia"!

and IMO fish #3, #4, #5 and the pics below look like hybrids made by crossbreeding L046 and L333

Czech....home and origin of catfish Hybrid Hell
or am I wrong?

those last 4 pics don't look like clean species, they look like hybrids. can't tell why, it's a hunch. but a big one.
QUASIMODO-style hunch. or Peter Sellers' Inspector Clouseau's inflatable hunch.
not good......

HaakonH · Post by **HaakonH** » 21 Feb 2007, 07:36

Hehe..well who knows? I find that somewhat hard to belive, that they are a cross. No, they are not from the Czech Republic, they are from Germany. And they come from a wellknown SUPPLIER, not a wellknown breeder

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 21 Feb 2007, 13:51

Hi !!

individuals 3-4-5 are likely to be Hypancistrus sp L399/400

regarding the L173, well I would say they are still young, and I would wait for them to develop before stating they are indeed L173...

Well know supplier...Glaser???

What is the exact origin of the fish, which supplier and which breeder??

Cheers
Yann

HaakonH · Post by **HaakonH** » 21 Feb 2007, 16:22

OK, here's the deal. 17 individuals were ordered from Glaser in Germany, yes. They were ordered as "L236 German bred". One breeder, I don't know his name, supplied Glaser with these fish. After I received the fish, it was soon clear that among the 17 were more than one species. Either Glaser or their breeder has some explaining to do.

I found this strange, as they were supposed to be German bred fish from the same parents...Something has happened, and I'm trying to find out what. I am in a discussion with Glaser about it. Most of all, I'd like to have a 100% ID to know what these are because we are keeping them for future breeding.

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 21 Feb 2007, 19:03

HI!

From the wels atlas, it says L236 can be quite variable...

Still I found it quite strange to have this amount of variation in a supposed single batch...even in 2...

Some of these fish are looking like L399/400, another like a zebra...
I found it really strange...

Also it is always tougher to ID juvenil/subadult fish rather than full grown..especially on this "xingu" complex"

Cheers
Yann

HaakonH · Post by **HaakonH** » 24 Feb 2007, 19:02

According to Glaser, one of the parents of these fish is depicted in the Mergus Catfish Atlas II as L-236. I also received a pic displaying the other parent fish. I haven't seen the M.C.A II myself yet, so I haven't seen the L-236 depicted there. The 2 individuals pictured in the first post here may have been added by mistake by the people at Glaser...Oh well. We'll just have to wait and see what they grow up to be.

Anyway, am I right that the original L236 was imported by Transfish/André Werner in Germany? I wonder, because there is an official picture of a so-called L236, taken by Mr.Werner:

...which looks quite different from the original picture taken by Hartl:

Can these 2 be the same species? Werner's fish looks quite identical to the ones we got.

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 25 Feb 2007, 13:42

Hi!

I have seen this pic as well...
how to be sure it comes from the Iriri... how different is that fish from L66-L333-L399... for me it is hardly different from what you can find as L399...
this complex is a total mess and will be fun to see what the scientific will do with it...

cheers
Yann

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 25 Feb 2007, 15:30

I one Hypancistrus identical to the first fish shown and called L46 that came in mixed with a shipment of L333 and L66 but it is not either of those.

So then, L46 variations are still imported occassionally
incidentally with similarly marked Hypancistrus. Any reason why they should not be allowed to breed with classically marked L46?

HaakonH · Post by **HaakonH** » 26 Feb 2007, 20:34

I have now asked André Werner at Transfish in Germany about the 2 official pictures above. The pic by Hartl he says, is one of 3 originally imported individuals from the Rio Iriri. 8 additional specimens were imported some years later.

The fish in Werner's pic shows a fish collected at the same time as the one in Hartl's pic, but Werner can't remember if it was from the Rio Iriri or from the Rio Xingu. Werner says this is not an L-236, but a different Hypancistrus species still without an L-number. Very similar looking fish are sometimes imported with L66.

Are we any wiser..?

HaakonH · Post by **HaakonH** » 28 Jul 2007, 17:47

Just a little update...

During the last months we have witnessed some development among the 13 individuals we are keeping. One of them, the fish in the first picture in this thread which looks abit like a H.zebra, clearly stands out from the 12 others. It has developed into a beautiful male, but who know's if it's a cross between different species or if it is a strange looking H.zebra...bodyshape seems a little off and it seems to be outgrowing any zebra i have seen. A brand new pic (thank you Erlend!):

Regarding the other 12 specimens, things are happening. The dominant male in the tank is now guarding his first clutch of eggs. This wasn't really planned, as I was hoping to ID them before we started breeding them, but apparently they couldn't be stopped

Here he is, guarding his cave:

[img:640:480]http://www.aquazoo.no/shop/images/Fisk/ ... C00046.jpg[/img]

The adults are now 7-10 cm, and there seem to be more females than males in the group. Several of them have developed a more pale brown colouration covered by pure black wormlines and dots. Many of the obvious females have this colouration. A few of the other individuals are white with black markings, like the alpha male. I can't say if it's gender related though.
A pic of one of the other individuals of unknown gender (thanks again, Erlend!):

[img:500:263]http://www.aquazoo.no/shop/images/Fisk/ ... -236_2.jpg[/img]

There are approx 20 offspring in this first clutch. The eggs were laid on July 23-24, and today (July 28), 6 already hatched fry plus some empty shells were found outside the cave and placed in a small floating tank. More updates and more pictures will follow soon...

-Haakon

Erlend D Bertelsen · Post by **Erlend D Bertelsen** » 02 Aug 2007, 11:36

Nobody has anything to add?
It would be interesting to ID this. The L-236 is not a normally seen fish, so any kind of comment on this fishes would be interesting.

I would guess Haakon even have some more pics.

E

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 02 Aug 2007, 14:25

I have this fish:

It is a wild import which came in with a batch of L333/L66. I think it was called Hypancistrus "Rio Jari" when I asked for an ID previously.
I'll have to get a photo but among the same dozen fish in this group are a couple looking just like the first fish in the OP. They are adults if they are indeed variants of L46 but I doubt they are really L46.
Morphologically they appear virtually identical to L46

HaakonH · Post by **HaakonH** » 02 Aug 2007, 17:44

The clutch only consisted of 6 hatched fry, or at least that's what we found. We found approx 15 empty shells though. The fry are pretty big, and their yolksac will be used up any day now.

Regarding the L236, there are a few things worth noticing. The striking colours of the fish in Hartl's picture may be the case of a remarkably beautiful young individual. What I mean is that not all L236 will look like this. With time we should sooner or later have individuals from our clutches looking at least somewhat like Hartl's depicted fish. If this won't ever happen, well then we may seriously doubt them being the same species as the one in the original picture.

Ingo Seidel mentions in an article published in the German magazine Amazonas a couple of years ago how an individual of L236 he kept gradually changed it's colour with age. It's black markings grew broader and the white basecolour faded somewhat. There's a picture of it in the article, showing a fish looking very much like ours. This is something also seen in L66, L333 and others, so it should come as no surprise. However, according to Janne Ekström, there is a slight possibility that L236 MAY not actually be anything but a colour variety of i.e. L333. Even among L333 one can find individuals that look almost like L236...

With this in mind, it's not impossible that individuals of L236 with less striking colours have been and are being shipped out of Brazil under other monikers. IF so, this could certainly cause some problems if they are bought by someone with the intention of breeding them, believing that they bought i.e. some nice L333.

And the fact that L236 comes from the Rio Iriri...well, who knows if that's really true? It COULD be a rumour set out to keep the hunters away from their real origin ;) Let's not forget the value of these fish.

It will be interesting to see the fry we now have grow up. Can't wait to see what pattern and markings they will develop.

-Haakon

HaakonH · Post by **HaakonH** » 10 Aug 2007, 17:42

The male is now guarding his second clutch! They seem to be rather productive...The first clutch is doing very well. All 6 fry are alive and healthy, and their size is pretty impressive. More pics soon. Meanwhile, another pic of one of the adults (thanks to Erlend again!):

And another pic of the dominant male:

[img:640:480]http://www.aquazoo.no/shop/images/Fisk/ ... 020640.jpg[/img]

-Haakon

Erlend D Bertelsen · Post by **Erlend D Bertelsen** » 10 Aug 2007, 18:45

Congrats on the second clutch. It seems that you have established a good spawing group. I am looking forward to see how the first fry are doing.

E

Charly EON · Post by **Charly EON** » 12 Aug 2007, 10:41

Hello

I obtained similar looking fishes labelled Hypancistrus L333 Porto de Moz and they are quite variable. It's also my feeling that L236 might be a variant of L333

Most of the fishes look exactly like yours and some show variations. Here are some of these variants.

[IMG:1063:456]http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/2320 ... us3oe4.jpg[/img]

Charly

Charly EON · Post by **Charly EON** » 12 Aug 2007, 10:45

Some more pictures

[IMG:1063:442]http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/1436 ... us1ot6.jpg[/img]

This last one (the 2 pictures are from the same fish) looks quite similar to L236 or what it's suppose to be.

What's the expert's ( Yann HH

) feelngs about these fishes ID ?

Charly

Jon · Post by **Jon** » 12 Aug 2007, 16:33

Charley, your fish are definitely Xingu fishes and not L-236, and these are indeed reputedly from around the Porto de Moz area and not the same fish as the previously listed fishes fromt he TC.

Also, that zebra is looking more like an L-173.

Post by **Janne** » 13 Aug 2007, 01:07

Charly,
Your fishes is this , Porto de Moz is a trade name an that small city are at the mouth of Rio xingu, the right collection point is more close to Belo Monte down stream the great rapids. They are extremely variable and could be more then one species.

Janne

HaakonH · Post by **HaakonH** » 01 Sep 2007, 14:15

Just a short update...

The 2 first clutches have resulted in 10 healthy youngsters, which are now about 2 cm. Now, the same male is protecting his 3rd clutch, although in a different cave..intersting to watch

-Haakon

PlecoFan · Post by **PlecoFan** » 01 Sep 2007, 18:47

the zebra looking fish is definatley a L173... the others do look like L236's to me.

just my opinion

HaakonH · Post by **HaakonH** » 20 Sep 2007, 15:28

Update!

Some nice pics of the youngsters, big thanks to Erlend again for taking these shots:

The first pic shows the largest fry, which is approx 1" (2,5 cm) already!

[img:500:339]http://www.aquazoo.no/shop/images/Fisk/ ... ngel_2.jpg[/img]

[img:500:532]http://www.aquazoo.no/shop/images/Fisk/ ... ngel_1.jpg[/img]

And here are a couple of pics showing some of the adults, again illustrating the great variety among them. No wonder they may be seen as different species!

[img:900:536]http://www.aquazoo.no/shop/images/Fisk/ ... 236_10.jpg[/img]

[img:900:457]http://www.aquazoo.no/shop/images/Fisk/ ... 236_11.jpg[/img]

Two males are now guarding caves, and they have both had clutches in there. However, apparently something has caused the last couple of clutches to not develop. Perhaps it's because the eggs are from females that haven't spawned before?

Interestingly enough the dominant males are the most beautiful specimens of them all. In other similar species, one will often find the males to be pretty dark and showing less contrast than females and younger specimens, but with this species, it seems to be almost the opposite...Of course this may change, but that just doesn't seem very likely right now.

-Haakon