Banjo Cat Question

[fatsfish]

Hi, i'm new here, I just joined today because i'm a little worried about my banjo cat.
My banjo cat is my favorite cat out of all that i'v seen, and so the only one that i have actually kept. As long as i'v had him he's always hung out at the bottom of the tank, but latley he just floats at the top. He doesn't appear to be unhealthy, but I never see him lay at the bottom anymore, not at night, or day, but if I nudge him a little with the net he'll turn and swim to the other side of the tank. Is this a sign of a problem? Is their maybe to much floor activity from the other fish? He's in a tank with a pair of convict cichlids(temporarily, as i removed them from their normal tank after seeing what appeared to be them eating their fry), a pair of Kribensis (AKA: Purple Cichlid), and a small peacock eel. I would be very saddened if he didn't make it because of a problem I havn't noticed or something.

[Bas Pels]

both trhe convict and the krib will chase the banjo away from the substrate, being very agressive fishes.

As an example, whem I put the secont convict pair into my 4 meter tank, the first male kept on chasing him whenever he saw him. Plenty opf hiding space, and Nr 1 also wanted to spend time with the ladies, so no harm done, but boy are they agressive

Kribs are not much less agressive

Although I don't know much about banjo cats, I think your fish will be under an awfull lot of stress. Better remouve the connvicts ASAP, and should the kribs not tolerate the banjo back on the floor, I would let them follow the convicts (out, that is)

Besides, convicts prever hard water, kribs and banjo soft - another argument against this combination

[fatsfish]

really?.....cause i'v never seen the kribs or convicts so much as even look at the banjo cat. Also, through lots of research, i'v found that even though certain fish somewhat prefer harder or softer water etc, its not absolutely necessary (although there are a few that it seems absolutely necessary), as its not so much the hard or soft water as it is a steady environment (ph, temp, etc). The water here where i live is hard, and putting chemicals in to soften the water can stress the fish, ecspecially when its time to cycle the water, because after adding more water, you have to add more chemicals etc etc and it can cause a rather unsteady environment for them. And the kribs can live in either soft or hard, but when breeding,very hard water causes most of offspring to be male, while very soft water encourages female, and a more even balance between evens the odds of both. I have an extra tank though, and will remove the convicts, as this only occured after the convicts were put in, even though i'v never seen after him, they seem to be the likely suspects. Or, do you think he would do better in the tank with my guppies? Thanks for helping.

[Bas Pels]

As chemistry is commonly misunderstood, people tend to ignore it. Usually I stoop helping people who think they may ignore hardness, pH et cetera

The banjo would enjoy peacefull fishes, however, most guppies are hardwatrer fish too

[fatsfish]

Hmmmm....
"Water - You need not stress over pH. You can keep your banjo catfish with community fish or discus. Because of their sedentary ways, they actually make good discus buddies."

What would you recommend keeping him with then, i'll move him and get another fish to put in with him if necessary.

Discus cost to much so I won't be getting one of those.

[fatsfish]

Nevermind....

"Tankmates:

Should be occupants of other than the bottom and not so fast feeders as to deny the bottom-living banjo cats of their foods. Small tetras, gouramis, danios, easier-going barbs... as long as these are more than mouth size... "

[Richard B]

A banjo cat at the waters surface is a real bad sign - these fish normally hide in roots or leaf litter or bury themselves in the sand.

Convicts are a bad choice of tank mate & kribs aren't brilliant either.

fatsfish on Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:58pm

"Tankmates:
Should be occupants of other than the bottom and not so fast feeders as to deny the bottom-living banjo cats of their foods. Small tetras, gouramis, danios, easier-going barbs... as long as these are more than mouth size... "

Even this info is not ideal - danios are very active & although they leave food which is quick sinking & goes to the bottom they are quick to consume anything else - likewise for the barbs. I'd suggest the small gouramis would be good, as would bettas & some killies.

The water here where i live is hard, and putting chemicals in to soften the water can stress the fish, ecspecially when its time to cycle the water, because after adding more water, you have to add more chemicals etc etc and it can cause a rather unsteady environment for them.

Treat the new water before you do any waterchange or top-up - that way correct water chemistry is achieved with minimal stress.

[MatsP]

On the water chemistry, can I please point out that you can't (realistically) change the pH and hardness DOWN by adding something - you can lower the pH, and although the technical definition of hardness isn't affected in EITHER direction by such an addition, it is my belief that such an addition is counteractive to what you actually want to achieve. In nature, with very few, if any, exceptions, low pH is also connected with soft water, and high pH connected with hard water. The precise measure we would like to have is "osmotic pressure", which means the "pressure" on the fish's balance between ions (minerals, salts or what we want to call it) in the body and the water itself. Water that is high in minerals (generally equivalent to hard water) will try to push minerals into the fish, whilst water that is low in minerals will try to suck minerals out of the fish - because minerals want to be in balance. So fish that is normally living in high mineral water are not suitable to live in soft water with low minerals because they do not have the same level of "prevent leaking" of minerals as those that naturally live in soft water.

Osmotic pressure is not easy to measure, but one way to (roughly) estimate the osmotic pressure is "capacity to conduct electricity", because more conductivity will mean more ions -> more conductivity. More conductivity is therefor connected with harder water (at least if we stick to natural circumstances).

Back to "adding stuff to lower the pH" - that involves adding acid. It will, absolutely, increase the conductivity of the water - so it will increase the balance of ions in the water, trying to get into the fish. This is going the wrong direction for fish that likes soft water.

--
Mats

[Bas Pels]

It is always hard to explain chemistry in common terms, but Matt is fully right

Personally I think the combination soft / acidic water has to do with organic matter preventing rain water from contact with the bedrock.

Regardless the minerals in this bedrock, the water will not dissolve it - hence be soft
however, organic matter makes the water acidic

[MatsP]

It is always hard to explain chemistry in common terms, but Matt is fully right

Of course - that helps people understand the subject. I just wanted to go a little bit deeper on the technical side to explain that "you can't add something to make soft water", because that's like making gold from lead - we've now moved from chemistry to magical tricks [you could use nuclear physics to make gold from lead, but it's not very productive].

Personally I think the combination soft / acidic water has to do with organic matter preventing rain water from contact with the bedrock.

Regardless the minerals in this bedrock, the water will not dissolve it - hence be soft
however, organic matter makes the water acidic

It doesn't have to be organic matter - a river/lake based on for example granite will pick up little or no hardness from the bedrock. A river that flows on a bedrock of chalk will pick up a lot of hardness from the bedrock - and you'd need a HUGE amount of organic matter at the bottom to a river to make it soft. My guess is that a river near where Jools lives has more or less the same amount of growth as the one flowing a couple of hundred yards from my house. But Jools will be adding oyster-shells to keep the KH up, and I'm running mine through an RO filter to remove the hardness (my tap water is about 360 ppm hardness measured by a conductivity metering PPM-meter).

[I also moved this thread, as it's a South American Catfish we're talking of --Mats]

--
Mats

[Bas Pels]

As I'm trying to explain aquarium chemistry towards non- chemists, I'm drafting a booklet about the subject, but I intend to go through great lengths to explain what water really is, since, after understanding this, pH, solvation of salts et cetera will be easy, I like to go into chemistry subjects - to see what explanation works

you are right, matts, a river flowing over granite bedrock will not carry hard water, but my insolation theory might still work - after all, even in NL, without a real bedrock (that is - the bedrock is very deep indeed), and everywhere calciforous sediment with very hard water, we have areas with acidic water - peat producing areas

[apistomaster]

I have a very simple test to determine if your Banjo Cat is still OK.
Gently pick it up(not out of the water) and move him so a piece of frozen blood worms or beef heart blend is at his mouth. A healthy happy Banjo cat doe not mind being held thus and it will eat the food. I have moved them around like a vacuum cleaner until their bellies appear so full as if they will burst. (Favorite pastime as a kid). I considered the Banjo Cat to be my first "Oddball" fish. Bought my first one about 47 years ago.

Banjo cats are not very demanding about the water chemistry as SA fish go but I would never consider keeping Banjo Cats with Convict Cichlids. Kribensis present a lower threat. I have often kept them with Discus in grow out tanks because they are such good scavengers when it comes to beef heart blends I feed young discus.
I would sure want to put this Banjo Cat in a more peaceful aquarium. The behavior of Bajo Cats is so bizzare as to make determination of anything they do as a sign of distress but judging by the company it's keeping it does sound like it is trying to find a safe haven.

Hi Bas,
One of the best but most poorly translated books on water chemistry, as it pertains to aquariums, was written by Dr Rolf Giesler. TFH editors did a horrible job on the translation but it was still one of the few good books they ever published. It was just a paperback but not as thin as some they published.
If you are familiar with this book or better yet, the original German version, it would be one to emulate. One thing seriously lacking in our hobby literature is a good text dedicated to only water chemistry and its relationship to the requirements of fish.

[racoll]

There are many schools of thought in fishkeeping. One of which (i.e. Bas's) is that fish must be kept in water akin to that found in nature.

While this is admirable, my experience has not shown that this is always necessary, providing the conditions are stable and extremes are avoided.

I have kept banjos, and they did not appear sensitive to water parameters. They also appear resilient at the retailers.

I would not imagine the water pH/hardness is causing any problems.

The cichlids probably don't bother the banjos during the day, as they probably don't even know they are fish, but possibly at night problems arise.

However, somehow I don't think this is the problem. I would wager that the banjos are not getting enough food in with those cichlids. A staving fish sometimes acts very strangely indeed. Like Larry says, they should be looking like little golf balls. Mine were so fat, they could barely swim.

It doesn't really matter what they are kept with provided they can get enough food, are not bullied and have a suitable environment.

The correct environment will consist of a dimly lit tank with a sandy substrate and shady quiet hiding places. They need to be able to burrow in the sand with their nostrils sticking out.

A brightly lit tank with gravel will not help them adapt to life in an aquarium.

Food and physical environment I believe are more important than exact water chemistry.

One thing seriously lacking in our hobby literature is a good text dedicated to only water chemistry and its relationship to the requirements of fish.

As I'm trying to explain aquarium chemistry towards non- chemists, I'm drafting a booklet about the subject, but I intend to go through great lengths to explain what water really is

My article here on water chemistry is pretty comprehensive. It is all accurate to the best of my knowledge.

[grokefish]

Larry and his living vacuum cleaner, that is the best story of early fish keeping I have ever heard, how did you find out they would do this?

On another subject:-
No offence to you guys in America but do you think that the fact that fishes seem to be sold in "pet stores" rather than dedicated aquatic stores as over here in europe, is the reason why so many questions/misunderstandings regarding simple basic fishkeeping knowledge such as water chemistry and stuff like that seem more commonly to come from your side o the pond?

If they don't then I take it back, but I seem to be seeing a co-relation between stupid questions and location.

I wasn't referring to your question by the way fatsfish I was just wondering abstractly and I mean this in no way offensively I just think maybe you guys are not getting the right information from your "pet stores" and it is definitely not aimed at Larry who I know to be a fishkeeping Guru.

If you don't believe me see the threads Lion-fish patterned catfish and help I have some plecos by accident or something like that.

Matt

[Bas Pels]

Matts suggestion could very well explain a lot of these problems.

As an example, in my country, the Netherlands, garden shops also sell fishes, unfortunately. And boy what a mess. The problems one can read on average Dutch fora (in Dutch, naturally) are quite similar.

So, yes, I think there is a correlation between (lack of) knowledge at the sellers place and problems buyers have

[sidguppy]

No offence to you guys in America but do you think that the fact that fishes seem to be sold in "pet stores" rather than dedicated aquatic stores as over here in europe, is the reason why so many questions/misunderstandings regarding simple basic fishkeeping knowledge such as water chemistry and stuff like that seem more commonly to come from your side o the pond?

Grokefish, this is absolutely no guarantee against stupid advice or rip-off deals whatsoever

I personally know at least 1 "pet shop" wich also sells birds, parrots, dogfood etc and they have a superb aquarium-part, excellent quality fishes wich are cheap and good advice

and I also know at least 3 specialised "LFS" wich would gladly sell you an Arowana baby for a 3 foot tank and often have tanks full of sick, infected fish and some of the personell shouldn't be allowed outside without guidance of a mature person
they are that stupid

so 'specialised shops' have no advantage whatsoever.
there's good and bad ones, same for the petshops with a "fishy part" of wich there are plenty; I dare say that there are many more petshops with a section of tropical fish than there are true specialised aquariumshops.

all examples are in the Netherlands. in Germany the situation is similar. there are also shops wich sell both pets and fishes alike, some of those are very big and quite good as well.
and bad aquariumshops
and reverse.


but I agree with Bas; I haven't seen any gardencenter where the fish-section is any good. there are only bad or worse tropical fish sections in the DIY or garden malls.

[MatsP]

Here in the UK, most of the garden centres have an aquatics section - but it is often a separate, independent company, e.g. Maidenhead Aquatics is co-located with garden centres in all of the MA branches I've ever been to.

--
Mats

[racoll]

Might be worth separating this into a new thread...

But I frequently wonder where most the responsibility lies for making sure fish that are sold are kept in suitable conditions.

The responsibility should ultimately be with the purchaser, but is it not reasonable to assume that you can get advice on how to keep them at the point of sale?, and how are the people receiving this advice going to know if it is bad?

Web forums are excellent places to get peer reviewed information, but even there people frequently disagree (e.g. myself and Bas regarding the banjo cat water chemistry).

Sounds draconian nanny state etc, but there really should be much tighter restrictions on how fish are retailed. Imagine the uproar in the Daily Mail of goldfish having more rights than honest hardworking people!

If we want really knowledgeable staff in these stores, then they will have to be paid accordingly, which means our fish will be more expensive and the business less profitable.

And how much of the day are these well trained staff really going to spend discussing the finer points of breeding Hara, rather than bagging up guppies for some idiot to kill in their BiOrb...

[The.Dark.One]

Hi fatsfish

I have kept lots of different banjo species over the years. Banjos that hang about near the water surface are usually doing so because they have been bitten or harassed by other fish, or they they just feel threatened. Please ensure that you either move your banjo to a tank with placid species, or remove the cichlids as your fish is undoubtedly stressed.

good luck with the Banjo.

[fatsfish]

Thanks everyone for all the advice. I have removed the banjo cat already, and yes it does seem to be that one of the others bit him close to the gill area. He is currently in his own quarentine tank where he is now happily hiding at the bottom again. And as far as Pet Shops and Aquarium Shops and fish info.....nobody knows everything about every fish they sell, and everyone has their opinion on requirements for the fish, and most opinions differ in some way or another. Your not gonna get the full info from the purchase location. In most cases all they tell me is what it eats, and what size tank it needs.....and that's only cause I make sure to ask about that. Everything else I look up online. And as far as that americans asking stupid questions thing goes.....grow up. Just because you think its an easy and/or commonly known question, or something you think they should already know, doesn't meen they do, nor does it make their question stupid, even though you ment no offense, it's still a bit rude to say.

[grokefish]

It's nothing to do with my knowledge of the answer at all actually, there are many things I don't know the answer to I was merely taking what I have observed and asking the question.
Some really stupid questions are asked on this and other forums. Maybe some people are more willing to ask the question in the states than in Europe, because believe me there are enough stupid fish keepers over here for the whole world.
I do not believe it was rude.
What is rude is when someone asks a question along the lines of "Help my red tail is dying, I have him in a 3ft tank and I feed him everyday but he won't eat and now the food is sitting on the bottom and rotting and my tank smells, and the petstore said he would only get to 6 inches and now he is 2 feet long"
So you give them some well explained advice from your or others past experience and the reply is " but the guy in the petstore told me to feed him a cows heart every day" before dismissing all the advice you have given.
I have seen it time and again, when people such as racoll, sid, bas, mats and many other very knowledgable guys give amazing advice and it's like they are talking to the wall.

By the way this has nothing to do with me disrespecting americans or favouring europeans because I am impartial to this as I am Australian.

Matt

[bronzefry]

The only stupid question is the one that isn't asked. Ever wonder why I have so many postings?

Enjoy your Banjos.
Amanda