L81/85 GOLD NUGGET

[Rohan Richardson]

I started a post here seeking information and from my observations the information on GH. is completely wrong as i have had to actively stop my nuggets from breeding by moving the cave so that the male vacates said cave twice!!! This being the case i suggest that people re-evaluate the conditions stated on various sites as spurious at the least!!! Ingo, Larry anyone stating 600-700 isn't thinking of the best conditions for the best results(FACT UNDENIABLE)!!!!!!! I now realise why these fish are regarded as difficult instead of easy 2/5 hardness ratio! Rohan Richardson

[MatsP]

Eh - not sure what your point is - or which post you are referring to... The natural habitat of Gold nuggets is Rio Xingu, which has soft water with low conductivity (the river flows through the rain-forest over a base of non-calciferous rock), so anything in the range of 600-700 (whether that is PPM TDS or uS/cm - or any other hardness measure that I know of) is clearly incorrect.

--
Mats

[Rohan Richardson]

Precisely right whilst i won't give out the right conditions-(eggs) because in Australia these fish are $500-$650 when young the claims on hardness levels are incredibly inaccurate and designed specifically for killing peoples fish!!! Rohan Richardson

[apistomaster]

I think there are enough breeders working on breeding any of the Gold Nuggets at "correct water conditions" so it is premature to declare them one of the "easy ones." I haven't seen a well documented and credible account of successful breeding; ie "Show me the fry" and yes, I have read the article on Gold Nuggets in "Shane's World." Doesn't mean I buy it.
Who ever suggested that any Gold Nuggets prefer hard water?
Who has seen breeders with fry?
Who has ever seen any tank raised Gold Nuggets for sale?

My own experience with Gold Nuggets is limited but they seemed to me to be sensitive species that do not handle abrupt changes in water pH and hardness well. Gold Nuggets are subject to fairly high losses as they move through the standard distribution channels.
They seem to be a slow growing species, one which perhaps, may take 4 or 5 years to reach maturity.

If you are successfully breeding some Gold Nuggets, I think sharing your experiences, methods and photos would be appreciated very much by many planetcatfish.com members.
I see you have posted as i was writing this but I don't care where you are and what their value is, fish breeding isn't brain surgery, plenty of valid information about their habitats exists for any well informed breeder to deduce where to begin is available and you may be surprised to know, there are no "secrets" known only to one in the fish business.
There is a very finite set of TDS/EC in which their eggs are likely to develop well so that is not a problem. Having a compatible and willing pair of fish that spawn is always 99% of the challenge.

If you are breeding them, then you are really only the fortunate owner of some fish which have decided to spawn. Fish breed themselves and people merely take care of them.

[MatsP]

So what post or other place are you referring to that states 600-700 in hardness? I'm sure we can correct the information.

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Mats

[taksan]

" I haven't seen a well documented and credible account of successful breeding; ie "Show me the fry" and yes, I have read the article on Gold Nuggets in "Shane's World." Doesn't mean I buy it.
Who ever suggested that any Gold Nuggets prefer hard water?
Who has seen breeders with fry?
Who has ever seen any tank raised Gold Nuggets for sale?

I refer you to http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... l=de&tl=en for a real breeding account.

I've been following the advice in this article for the last 3 months and only yesterday I had my male on a large clutch of eggs which unfortunately appear infertile but its a hell of a start.

[apistomaster]

Taksan,
Congratulations on your first spawn and I expect you will resolve the fertility problem with further finessed care.
I enjoyed trying to interpret the Google translation; especially the phrase that seemed to mean, with an appropriate "bitch", one may expect results.
You have answered my request to see some tank raised fry. Clearly, a credible documented breeding success.
Otherwise, the article seem to explain techniques most breeders of Loricarids from warm, soft, acid waters would incorporate into the design of their breeding set ups as is appropriate for a species of their size.
How big of secret are the water parameters of the Rio Xingu, given the diverse number of so many of the most sought after species in the hobby that originate from this legendary river? That is what was frankly annoying to me about the OP's initial withholding of the degree of softness, as if he apparently seems to think it is something magical. As a wild discus breeder, I don't find the water conditions necessary for keeping and breeding Gold Nuggets particularly challenging to supply. Gathering a suitable breeding aged group is not something as easily accomplished.

[taksan]

Taksan,
Congratulations on your first spawn and I expect you will resolve the fertility problem with further finessed care.
I enjoyed trying to interpret the Google translation; especially the phrase that seemed to mean, with an appropriate "bitch", one may expect results.
You have answered my request to see some tank raised fry. Clearly, a credible documented breeding success.
Otherwise, the article seem to explain techniques most breeders of Loricarids from warm, soft, acid waters would incorporate into the design of their breeding set ups as is appropriate for a species of their size.
How big of secret are the water parameters of the Rio Xingu, given the diverse number of so many of the most sought after species in the hobby that originate from this legendary river? That is what was frankly annoying to me about the OP's initial withholding of the degree of softness, as if he apparently seems to think it is something magical. As a wild discus breeder, I don't find the water conditions necessary for keeping and breeding Gold Nuggets particularly challenging to supply. Gathering a suitable breeding aged group is not something as easily accomplished.

Yes well I basically kept them in standard heckle water with massive current but no tannins. So a whitewater WC Discus tank .... PH hovers between 5.8 and 6.2 and the water is soft soft soft ....

[junaid]

Precisely right whilst i won't give out the right conditions-(eggs) because in Australia these fish are $500-$650 when young the claims on hardness levels are incredibly inaccurate and designed specifically for killing peoples fish!!! Rohan Richardson

how blimming selfsish mate . your not giving the information out because other people will breed these fish and your imaginary breeding gold nugget fry will be worth less when everybody breeds them with your ultra super secret idea ?

it hurts me to see people like you in the hobby and was there any need for all them pm's ?

[Milnerhome]

Hi
It has been made obvious that Rohan has not bred Golden Nuggets, it is most obvious on the PF forum.

If he shows some pics, I will eat my hat, socks, trousers, coat and t-shirt!

Ggeorge

[racoll]

Rohan (and taksan), firstly well done for breeding this species.

Eh - not sure what your point is - or which post you are referring to...

Just like Mats said, I don't really understand your point either. If you think information on this site is inaccurate or could be improved upon, then by all means provide an account of your fish breeding success and the site can be updated to reflect this.

You also don't actually link to any content on this site which you claim is wrong. I can't find the GH data you are referring to.

Also what does 600-700 refer to? I assume µS/cm, but you could be talking mg/l

Just coming along and saying information here is wrong, and then not elaborating, is just wasting peoples time.

So few accounts of gold nugget breeding exist, it would be valuable to have a good contribution.

claims on hardness levels are incredibly inaccurate and designed specifically for killing peoples fish!!!

There is not some grand conspiracy to stop breeders succeeding with these fish, not on this website anyway.

Personally I would reiterate what Larry said, in that gold nuggets probably breed over a wide range of water hardness parameters (like many other loricariids), but having mature, sexed, and conditioned fish in a suitable size breeding tank is probably the hardest part.

[hookedonfish]

hey everyone. My L002 males were in the cave, so they are breeding for me rite now as we speak lol.. Just because a male is in a cave does not mean that he is breeding...

And rohan yes you are extremely selfish. it's people like you that treat this hobby as a bussiness. and the prices here in Aus are never going to change because of people like you..

Cheers
Aiden...


P.s. Rohan You have my temper up from reading every one of your posts.. And has rohan also mentioned on here that he can sex L333 at 3cm..

[Rohan Richardson]

In response to the replies this isn't about greed as i actually need the money from breeding them. Milnerhome you pm'ed me a few times and got no answer as you were one of the people flaming me on that thread amongst others simply i believe from jealousy(maybe wrong) at some good fortune of my own. My fish are in a 4' with strong current(L81's)the other variety of nugget(L85/18)is also in a standard 4' less current with the smallest having grown 1-1.5cm in only1.5-2months. It would seem pf is all about a boys club mentality/protectionism of the old guard. Where some of that old guard L Vires & Ingo Seidol i believe would not agree with that mentality as i stated that anybody put forward the aforementioned 28gh level is wrong even were that Larry or Ingo i think would meet with their approval! I confirmed the temp at 30-34c is right however as i felt not to would be remiss of myself. When i have photo's including with fry i'm then very happy to offer the photo's to PC as here i haven't run into a barrage of abuse. I personally also will then seek to purchase other Baryancistrus species (especially unbred) as if i can breed a couple more i'd love to put a book together on baryancistrus breeding(tall order!). PC the fish i have are at what i believe is the absolute minimal size to achieve breeding which if i'm right will clarify information on breeding size(important information)! The poster that said he had a sterile breeding i wish you luck with those fish(heartfelt mate). Rohan Richardson ps. The only area with Larry Vires is the ?use of dog food for fish? Larry please clarify this for me if you did hats off to you!!! I'd never have thought of that.

[MatsP]

I'm not sure what you are so upset about. I'm all for correct and accurate information, but I can not correct information if you do not tell us where it is . Please feel free to supply comments that would improve the content in our Cat-eLog, for any of the species of

Baryancistrus

that you have experiences with.

However, if you are complaining about someone else's information, such as Larry Vires' publications, then I can't really do much about that. And the Larry that we have comments from in this thread is not Larry Vires.

--
Mats

[taksan]

OK lets state the facts....
Rohan has NOT bred GN's
But in his defence .....
Rohan has not SAID he has bred GN's
He said that his GN's were exhibiting breeding behavior he never said he had eggs or fry.
His posts have been misconstrued because of his posting style and his rubbish about writing books and getting other species of Bary's to try next assuming he could breed them at any time. The fact is he hasn't bred them ...hasn't even had eggs and until he actually does all of his other stuff is just wishful thinking on his part.
I've had my 2 colony's of nuggets exhibiting "breeding behaviors" for 3 years .....And I haven't bred them either.
I've had 2 batches of eggs but both infertile but I'm happy I'm on the right track.
I believe the fish are standard Xingu water types and the Cat-elog information is essentially correct.
That said I do take other issue with many of the things Rohan says ...
Fish are not about money ....its a hobby if your in it for the money your in it for the wrong reasons.
And a hobby is no fun if you can't share your knowledge and experiences with others.

[racoll]

Rohan has not SAID he has bred GN's

Yes he did

How could the sentence below be interpreted in any other way?

i have had to actively stop my nuggets from breeding

[taksan]

It means he thinks he stopped a imminent breeding (he never explained the how what or why) .... we all know that's highly unlikely but its what he believes. I do know he owns the fish and someone I know has seen them in the flesh but I also know that he has no fry or eggs from these fish.

[racoll]

It means he thinks he stopped a imminent breeding (he never explained the how what or why)

I see. I read that comment as "they had already bred so much, I had to stop them producing more eggs".

Why on earth would you want to stop gold nuggets from breeding when, A) breeding them is quite an achievement, and B) the young sell for $500-$650 ?

None of this is making sense.

[apistomaster]

Rohan,
My name is Larry Waybright not Larry Vires. I have talked to Larry Vires, but I have never seen any of his breeding set ups. I personally believe he has overstated his claimed successes but that is another matter. I would just take his writings with a grain of salt. Larry Vires has not participated in this thread. I have over 4 decades of fish breeding experience and it has been my experience that there are no new techniques under the sun, nor anything that someone else has not discovered independently. I have always freely shared my experience, both my successes and failures to contribute what I can to the shared knowledge base so other may benefit from what has or hasn't worked for me.

The basics of breeding the medium to larger sizes of plecos is still at a relatively early stage and there remains a great deal to be learned.
The sizes of larger plecos, greater time it takes for them to reach maturity, means few people are able to gather, house and set up enough breeding colonies to make rapid progress with breeding these fish. So far, all indications are that the primary differences between breeding them and the smaller species are ones of scale. The actual techniques that work are identical in all the important aspects to those proven to work with the smaller spp of plecos; they just must be scaled up in size appropriate to the sizes of the species one is trying to breed. It sounds like you still have much to learn and that you are excessively paranoid about the motives of others. You have had the benefit of advice from some of the best in this field. I haven't seen you contribute much to this discussion that is relevant to breeding any of the Gold Nuggets or any other Baryancistrus spp for that matter. If you want to be known as an accomplished fish breeder it has to be earned. It requires that you document and publish, even if "only" in a forum. Your credentials have yet to be established and as significant as the known accomplishments of the likes of published authors like Ingo Seidel. Your dreams of becoming an author may be realized some day but it takes more than the possessive and somewhat fearful way you have introduced yourself. Credibility is any nonfiction author's stock and trade. You could well benefit from exhibiting some credible facts and intellectual humility to admit what you don't know and express what you actually know based on experience and photographic evidence.

I happen to breed and keep fish as both my hobby and as a source of supplemental income. I share freely my experiences because I am not threatened by the success of others. No matter how much detail is supplied, it still means that each person will have to discover what works for them. I am far more knowledgeable about breeding wild and domestic discus and I have have assisted many new Discus breeders, some of whom went on to become highly successful and much larger producers than myself. There is no shortage of competition among Discus sellers but their success as never impinged on the business side of my hobby. Despite all of the books available about breeding Discus and however much I share, some fish, wild Discus for example, involve more than one can convey to actually succeed with breeding them. There are things I do without thinking, that help me breed wild Discus. It isn't that I've ever held anything back, it's just that with experience, many small things add up to a greater effect, like actually doing it and others can only learn from their experience some of the nuances that go into having a wetter thumb than others. Yet I never forget that over these decades of my involvement with Discus, thousands of others have also successfully bred their wild Discus too many times for it to be any accidental successes.
Be a big enough man to act like other respected fish breeders. You will need the credibility to hope to sell any future book(s) you hope to write.

I have a feeling that there are far more Asian, skilled breeders working on Gold Nuggets than there are in Europe and the United States combined and if breeding them was easy we would have heard more from them.

[taksan]

Why on earth would you want to stop gold nuggets from breeding when, A) breeding them is quite an achievement, and B) the young sell for $500-$650 ?

None of this is making sense.

Well ....Rohan is kind of "special"

[grokefish]

Rohan you go man write that book,
It would be a ferkin amazing laugh, in fact can I help you write it.

Matt

[apistomaster]

No, Matt, you would probably divulge too much "secret" information if you helped to write the book.
That is one of the more hilarious items that have come up in the course of this thread.
I have to get back to the construction of my big wet/dry filter for my new 125 gal Discus tank.
I have six Nhamunda Blues in it already because I couldn't wait any longer. I am trying hard to get back into breeding wild Discus again.

[hookedonfish]

he said his nuggets were 3 inches long when he 1st claimed this, and then to days later they were 18cm....


so they amazingly whent from 3 inches long to 18cm within 2 days .. otherwise thumbs up for you owning such a rare secret rohan... But don't tell anyone.. You mite make some money in never never land..

[Yann]

Ok guys!!!

Let's keep this forum a peaceful place, so enough teasing, laughing or whatever...We don't want this thread to go out of hand...
Back to our fish and constructive replies please...

Cheers
Yann

[Rohan Richardson]

The reason was quite simply the eggs would have turned useless from the water conditions(osmosis) with that level of dollars surely you can understand that is a very easily understood reason to stop a breeding occuring. The size of these fish is 13cm+for the girl and 15cm+for the boy i believe that this is the minimum breeding size not the 18cm as put forward earlier. My other nuggets (different specie)are still a couple of inches to small for breeding yet. Larry yes this is a hobby however it can be both enjoyable and lucrative. If i can gain certain species i do indeed intend on trying to get a book going on baryancistrus breeding as i think that would be cool(good achievement-a lot of work). We have a no import policy in Australia so getting some species is very very difficult though, my intent is to get over to the states soon to see about various areas and when doing so the possibility of getting a set-up happening there as then i'm able to get the various baryancistrus species. Rohan Richardson

[Jon]

All live cells have controls against osmotic lysis. Arguing on the basis of osmotic pressure makes no sense whatsoever.

Furthermore, it has nothing to do with the actual deposition of eggs, so no, I'd say your motives for stopping the spawn are unclear.

[apistomaster]

There ar species of soft water fish that lay very small, rapid incubation period eggs like Cardinal Tetras which do seem unforgiving when it comes to water chemistry but most of the soft water pleco spp eggs have been able to develop and hatch normally in much harder water than they evolved in. Cardinal eggs can almost disappear just before they are due to hatch. These and similar fish do seem to demand extremely soft and acid water virtually bacteria free in order to hatch and have normal larval development.
When it comes to plecos, having fish willing to spawn is the most influential aspect of successful breeding and raising the fry.
As aquarium fish go, pleco eggs are very large and quite strong. So far, the vast majority of them have been found quite adaptable to water conditions very different from their native waters. Some are much more adaptable than others. The black water Ancistrus spp seem more sensitive to water chemistry than most and Baryancistrus may be another genus that is, too. Still, their range of acceptable conditions is not nearly as critical as it is for Cardinal or Rummy Nose Tetras, to cite some examples.

I would never discourage a breeding pair of Gold Nuggets. It's better to establish their regular breeding so you have more chances to find out exactly how dependent their embryological development is on water chemistry. This would be my approach. It seems to me that you really have nothing to lose and everything to gain from allowing a breeding pair or group to spawn whenever they want.

I can certainly relate to trying to make some money while still enjoying my fish breeding hobby. I mainly raise fairly expensive fish because they are the only ones that actually pay for my hobby's costs and then some. I breed other fish, with little intrinsic value because they may be particularly challenging and they help sharpen my skills and I derive a great deal of satisfaction from the accomplishment, even if they may be a species that sells for only a couple dollars retail.