Brazilian Hypancistrus Availabilty Issues

[apistomaster]

Since Brazil IBAMA placed stringent prohibitions on the export of their Hypancistrus species how has it affected you?
In the USA, Brazilian Hypancistrus availability seems to me to have dropped drastically. At least one noted on-line retail pleco specialist dealer has gone out of business since the ban took effect. In other parts of the world it hasn't seemed to diminish the variety or quantity to nearly such a degree.
I visit the Singapore based forum, www.aquaticquotient.com regularly and members there seem to be able to get all species of wild Hypancistrus except H. zebra which they breed just as much as the rest of the world.

What are your observations?
Do you even care? Maybe just because the economy is tough and expensive Brazilian Hypancistrus plecos are just something you have to fore go until things improve?
Are you happy to just get the species from the Orinoco basin and those of other genera Brazil still allows to be exported?
Brazilian Hypancistrus were all the rage and now it seems to me like the love affair is over. Is that really true?
A lot of opinions were expressed when this issue first arose but maybe we have just moved on to settle with what we can get?
I feel like we may have reacted too slowly to establish a self sufficient supply of aquarium bred fish while the getting was good and now there are thousands of individual specimens living their lives out to no great purpose.

Let's give this topic some thought and input. It seems odd that these attractive fish are apparently in fairly good supply in the shops in Singapore and Hong Kong but so scarce elsewhere.
Then there is the anomaly of vendors advertising wild caught H. zebra after many years of no wild fish available. It just seems stranger and stranger to me.

[Yann]

Hi!!

From what I can see, yes the availability has drop, but at the same time it has encourage breeding project by many people.
Still some Hypancistrus speceis are making their way to Europe without much of a problem, the prices fortunately haven't change much, but have stayed to a relative correct price...except for the zebra, bred specimens are being sold more and more expensive (in Switzerland) while in the rest of Europe, but more especially in Germany, the prices have dropped.

From what I know about the export of Hypancistrus species are still being exported, at least for the common one!
I know for a reliable source that Hypancistrus sp L174 won't be allowed to export because of a population limited in a restricted area...so only bred specimens will be seen in the future

Cheers
Yann

[andywoolloo]

I never have seen any king tigers since the two I bought last year or the year before, not anywhere. At least not locally.

And I think I may have two girls, unknown for sure yet.

[Yann]

HI!!

posssibly for King tiger, but I think I have seen some being imported this year... L333 that for sure yes...

cheers
Yann

[MatsP]

Here in the UK, there are some Hypancistrus species available, but most are non-Brazilian species (e.g. L201/H. contradens). I don't know anywhere you can get the previously rather common L260 for example (although L411? is available in places).

--
Mats

[CoryWally]

Unfortunately there are some private individuals importing wild caught H. zebra via Columbia in the U.K. I don't know if other Brazillian Hypans are comingt via Columbia, but obviously zebras make it worth while.

The U.K. importers seem little concerned because they feel they are not breaking any bans because the fish are coming from Columbia. Little concern that they are supporting an illegal smuggling trade, flauting the Brazillian export ban and diminishing any conservation efforts on the part of the Brazillian authorities (whether you support them or not).

On the plus side, there is a great effort on the part of many UK hypancistrus keepers to breed and distribute many Hypan species, especially the Brazilian ones, and we could reach a relative level of self sufficiency before too long.

I would say, however, there isn't too much co-ordination amongst U.K. breeders, although there are a number of specialist websites which promote the cause. It wouldn't take much to set up an inventory of breeders and their species, although there could be some security issues!

Cheers,
Mark

[Richard B]

As i get around a bit, i feel there has been a slight decrease in availability coupled with a small(ish) increase in price. L260 is available Mats, but a little scarcer & needs a bit of effort to find. I expected things to change much more significantly than they have at this moment in time.

Zebras are being offered at some extreme prices (but can still be found at "reasonable" prices if you search them out)

[MatsP]

As i get around a bit, i feel there has been a slight decrease in availability coupled with a small(ish) increase in price. L260 is available Mats, but a little scarcer & needs a bit of effort to find. I expected things to change much more significantly than they have at this moment in time.

Zebras are being offered at some extreme prices (but can still be found at "reasonable" prices if you search them out)

Well, out of the four shops I go to reasonably often, they ALL used to have L260 in stock at least from time to time. At last visit to my LFS, there was a "second hand" L260 in stock, but other than that, they haven't had any for a long time. The MA branches of Woking, Guildford and Farnham, I've only seen one in the Guildford branch in the last year.

I'm not saying they are IMPOSSIBLE to find. But they used to be common enough that it wouldn't take that much to find a group of 5. Now, it would at least take a posting here to ask if anyone knows where I could find some.

--
Mats

[TwoTankAmin]

I have noticed some drop off in the availability of certain previously readily available imoports with one exception- zebras. I try to play pretty close attention to this as I have had a spawning group of them for several years.

I can not recall seeing as many wild caught zebras of all sizes being offered for sale to the extent I have seen them over the past year. Rather than get into why this is the case I would rather touch on what I see as the real issue here- the potential loss of the species in the wild due to over collection.

We have all read and discussed the potential for damming the river as a threat to many species. And while this has been a hot topic over the past few years, I have yet to read anything idnicating actual work has even begun. Furthermore, I am not 100% convinced that dams would deastroy wild poulations. It seems to me that is should be possible to manage the dams so that the species who need the seasonal triggers would still get it.

Of more concern to me is the deforestation and land conversion to agribusiness. The use of chemical fertilizers which will find their way into the rivers is a much greater threat, imo. Ify ou can go to Google maps and put in Rio Xingu, Brazil and then click on the sattelite view, you will see for yourself how much forrest is being cleared along the river. Long before proposed dams will kill off species like the zebra, agripollution will do so.

However, I also have a strong feeling that before species are killed off by agricultural runoff getting into their habitats that they may very well be over collected to the point of extinction A species like the zebra which has a very limited range of habitat, which takes some time to mature to spawning age/size and then which has such relatively small spawns can easily be forced to the brink of extinction from over collection. Given the dearth of reliable research into the status of wild poulations- there is no way to know for sure what is going on. But a recent Obama report indicated a lot of these fish have been leaving brazil in violation of the ban- http://www.ibama.gov.br/recursos-pesque ... _xingu.pdf

I, like most of the members here, frequent a number of fish related sites. I read at sites at which I don't particilate just to see what is going on. What I can say for certain is that of all the catfish/pleco related sites I frequent, only one has a policy of not permitting users to list recent wild caught zebras likely collected in violation of the brazilian ban to be listed in their classifeds- and that is zebrapleco.com.

This site, considered one of the premier catfish sites on the web, has no policy/position on this issue as far as I can tell- this is obvious from this classified posted July 20, 09 http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 24&t=26940.

On another pleco site this seller has feedback from some of the more respected members there thanking him for the great zebras- fish advertised in such a way as to make it clear they are recently caught and illegally exported.

I am reminded of a now famous line from the Pogo comic stip: "We Have Met The Enemy and He Is Us"

[Richard B]

As i get around a bit, i feel there has been a slight decrease in availability coupled with a small(ish) increase in price. L260 is available Mats, but a little scarcer & needs a bit of effort to find. I expected things to change much more significantly than they have at this moment in time.

Zebras are being offered at some extreme prices (but can still be found at "reasonable" prices if you search them out)

Well, out of the four shops I go to reasonably often, they ALL used to have L260 in stock at least from time to time. At last visit to my LFS, there was a "second hand" L260 in stock, but other than that, they haven't had any for a long time. The MA branches of Woking, Guildford and Farnham, I've only seen one in the Guildford branch in the last year.

I'm not saying they are IMPOSSIBLE to find. But they used to be common enough that it wouldn't take that much to find a group of 5. Now, it would at least take a posting here to ask if anyone knows where I could find some.

--
Mats

Fair enough & some good points - 3 MA's might all have the same supplier, hence no supply to multiple stores. MA Stratford have had 2 batches (of reasonable quantities) in the last maybe, 8 months. The first ones were 26.50 each, the subsequent batch were a fair bit more...

[racoll]

It seems odd that these attractive fish are apparently in fairly good supply in the shops in Singapore and Hong Kong but so scarce elsewhere.

Hi Larry,

When I was in Singapore a few weeks back, I didn't see many Hypancistrus at all. The best store had a few, but not much variety really.

My main concern with the whole thing is that the trade will switch to the Orinoco species and the prettier Brazilian Peckoltia like L134, and there could well be over-collection problems with these in the future. Demand is unlikely to be satisfied by captive bred individuals.

[dconnors]

I happen to have a different view than most, with the proposed dam on the xingu and all. Once this dam is built it will do permanant and irreversable damage to the Xingu and its loracaiid inhabitants, among other species of river-dwelling species. This proposed dam has been postponed, but will someday be a necessity for the people of that region. I see this time as a window to gather what species we can for captive breeding programs, as over the years more and more plecos have been bred in captivity. What is a shame is the FACT that many species must be smuggled out of Brazil to neighboring countries for export, and it is usually during this time that many fish become emaciated, diseased, and/or die. If these fish were allowed to be exported on some type of quota system, or daily bag limits for the fisherman were made and enforced, then maybe these species would have a chance at not becoming extinct! I just don't see any point in leaving these fish that we all enjoy to be left in a river system that someday will change so drastically that natural reproduction will cease to be; especially when many of these species are capable of reproducing in captivity. Hopefully some will now see my point of view, this why I have no problem with buying wild caught zebras. They are doomed in nature thanks to the progress of man, captive breeding is the only hope for the future of many L-numbers. The question is: How do we raise these fish in captivity when we cannot get the wild stock that we need for captive breeding programs? Hopefully I did not ruffle too many feathers with this reply.

[Bas Pels]

Although I disagree with you, I don't think you ruffled my feathers - you just weigh facts differently, and in my eyes you ignore some facts

We do agree the Xingu dam would much better never be build - but frankly, this is another discussion. I start to disagree where you write about species conservation. For such a project large amounts of individuals (over a hundred for each specie) will be required, and therse will need to be housed - somewhere

This is extremely expensive, and later on, the fish wil lhave to breed - resulting a many, many fry. Which are to be sold? criteria are needed, selling them will be essential, to pay some bills and so on

However, the main problem is, why would one which to conserve species which will never be restored into the wild? Their habitat is destroyed, beyond repair, when the dam is build. The fishes might get new deseases which are unknown to Amazonia, and thus restoring them into the wild could be destroying all species left there

So where you think species conservation is an important 'heavy' thing, I would not consider this valuable, and thus not 'heavy'

The problem you ignore, in my eyes, is that smuggling results in more smuggling. The USA had a period where selling alcohol was prohibitied. This resulted in smugglers smuggling alcohol into the USA, and after the prohibition ended, they started smuggling other goods, amongst which drugs. amongs those who were happy to buy alcohol from the smugglers, I'm certain are a lot of people who are sad about the drugs smuggling

If you, D Connors, think it is OK to buy from smugglers, I think you should at acknowledge these smugglers will smuggle other goods as well - on the return drugs for instance (Colombia does produce cocaine, which will be selllable in Brasil) or weapons into Colombia.

This smuggling problem is in my eyes such a big problem, that I, personally, would not buy illegal fish.

I do, however, think Brasil should allow export of fish they intend to destroy anyway - but again, this is another discussion

[Jools]

I have met, face-to-face, one of these smugglers in a hotel in Colombia. He's was a fish guy, not as you suggest. I think this is a bit far fetched - I mean the street value of cocaine is not in the same ballpark as a bunch of plecos.

Despite this being talked about several years ago, I have yet to see any zebra plecos exported out of Colombia (or anywhere else) for sale. I have seen F1s of several species.

Jools

[Jools]

Hi Mark,

The U.K. importers seem little concerned because they feel they are not breaking any bans because the fish are coming from Columbia. Little concern that they are supporting an illegal smuggling trade, flauting the Brazillian export ban and diminishing any conservation efforts on the part of the Brazillian authorities (whether you support them or not).

Who? I've not seen any.

It wouldn't take much to set up an inventory of breeders and their species, although there could be some security issues!

Really? Say 100 breeders and all updates of all fry for sale, prices, addresses, remove fish no longer available, etc?

Jools

[Jools]

I, like most of the members here, frequent a number of fish related sites. I read at sites at which I don't particilate just to see what is going on. What I can say for certain is that of all the catfish/pleco related sites I frequent, only one has a policy of not permitting users to list recent wild caught zebras likely collected in violation of the brazilian ban to be listed in their classifeds- and that is zebrapleco.com.

Yup, and I suspect out of all the catfish/pleco sites you frequent, it's the only one that is about one species period. So, it's a lot easier to form, and keep monitoring, a position.

This site, considered one of the premier catfish sites on the web, has no policy/position on this issue as far as I can tell- this is obvious from this classified posted July 20, 09 http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 24&t=26940.

Thanks for the compliment. I seek to avoid creating a political position on this ethical matter. Firstly, the zebra pleco has no more right than the hunderds of other endangered catfishes to the sites attention.

No one has yet said the fishes range is from this part of the Xingu to this other part. No one has yet said how many fishes may exist in the wild and no one even knows how many were being exported then or now.

It isn't illegal to buy them freshly imported. I think your point is that it is ethically wrong - how much more, or less, ethicially wrong that buying a SA red tail cat? Or breeding veiltail or hybrid plecos? Or some other fish that is endangered or soon to be?

And what happens when they are bred in Brazil - how do we tell the imported F1s from the imported WCs?

This is mostly true for the other endangered species and indeed new information comes and goes all the time.

Is it OK for these species to be exported to go to expert fishkeepers like yourself who will breed and distribute them, but to take a position on selling them to "trophy fish" collectors to sit in a tank with 20 other l-numbers?

So, my present position is not to adopt a "nanny state" approach but rather to leave it to the individual. I do not have any problem with someone replying to a post selling newly WC zebras (or anything else) and asking how the seller feel about the ethics of it. It's hard to find how I ban something that is ethically unsound when there are many other similar cases. If the UK, for example, were to make their sale illegal, that would be a different matter.

On another pleco site this seller has feedback from some of the more respected members there thanking him for the great zebras- fish advertised in such a way as to make it clear they are recently caught and illegally exported.

I am reminded of a now famous line from the Pogo comic stip: "We Have Met The Enemy and He Is Us"

I'd agree if you mean us in terms of the human race, if you mean fish keepers or the industry then I can't agree with that.


Jools

[Haavard Stoere]

Despite this being talked about several years ago, I have yet to see any zebra plecos exported out of Colombia (or anywhere else) for sale. I have seen F1s of several species.
Jools

Hypancistrus zebra are currently being smuggled to Peru and are offered to shops who import directly from a Peruvian exporter. I have seen these smuggled fish with my own eyes at two separate occasions, and they are very real, but very expensive. I have no idea about how many are being sold from Peru. Hopefully the number is low.

Ordering these fish is immoral, and I advice everyone to only buy locally bred zebras.

[Jools]

Despite this being talked about several years ago, I have yet to see any zebra plecos exported out of Colombia (or anywhere else) for sale. I have seen F1s of several species.
Jools

Hypancistrus zebra are currently being smuggled to Peru and are offered to shops who import directly from a Peruvian exporter. I have seen these smuggled fish with my own eyes at two separate occasions, and they are very real, but very expensive. I have no idea about how many are being sold from Peru. Hopefully the number is low.

Ordering these fish is immoral, and I advice everyone to only buy locally bred zebras.

There might be some misunderstanding here, Haavard, you saw these fish in Peru or in Europe?

Jools

[Haavard Stoere]

Sorry! They arrived at a local shop here in Norway. On the first occation he got only 1 specimen. On the second occation he got 8 specimens. It happened last winter. Sometimes I help with the unpacking of fish just for fun and to see all new arrivals. They were ordered from an exporter in Peru (not Stingray Aquarium).

[Yann]

Hi

I have seen Hypancistrus zebra being imported here in Switzerland from a Colombian export company last year and this year also...and it was not 8-10 individuals, it was 30-45 pieces...each time...

little availability of tank bred specimens, but also selling price for a hefty 100$ for a 3cm tank raise specimen by private breeders has certainly help encouraged the smuggling and still will...

Not to disculpate the fishermen, the export companies and import companies, but the real one at the source of the problem are us... Aquarists, who wants to buy that fish so bad, ready to put any price for it no matter of the origin...once people will start to be more responsible and have some ethics in this hobby, maybe things will change...but for now I ain't seeing it getting better

Cheers
Yann

[Yann]

A breeder registered list... is an awfull lot of work and I can speak of first hand experience as I ran such list for several years...
my list was around 30 people big and still was quite some work to do, you wouldn't imagine how often I had to update the list, and you better do it regulary, otherwise you can spend one full day just at it every month.

On this list I also try to track down the origin of the aquarium strain when known, or the shop it was bought in... WC, F1-F2 etc..génération was asked

The list was for evry catfish, and I had it listed alphabetically both for the keepers and genus/species

The best would have been to have a online form, which is filled by the owner/keeper itself...just like my "cats' list" you just need to have people being ok to update it often...

but otherwise..that is a lot to do

Cheers
Yann

[apistomaster]

I can't prove it but I think more wild H. zebra are directly exported from Brazil through small groups of connected collectors linked to corrupt export officials.

I know from importers who order L134 that they are receiving about 2/3 of the number they order. This appears to be rationing of a diminishing supply to me. I will not be surprised to see Brazil add them to their Red List within another 2 years.

Thanks to all for their contributions. I hoped this would help put the current situation in a fresh perspective since the ban has been in force long enough to effect a reduced supply of wild caught Brazilian Hypancistrus spp.

[Jools]

Not to disculpate the fishermen, the export companies and import companies, but the real one at the source of the problem are us... Aquarists, who wants to buy that fish so bad, ready to put any price for it no matter of the origin...once people will start to be more responsible and have some ethics in this hobby, maybe things will change...but for now I ain't seeing it getting better

Can't agree more.

Jools

[apistomaster]

An 800 Lb Gorilla in the room is one I don't understand.
Hypancistrus species would lend themselves well to in country cultivation by individual or small companies in almost trout hatchery conditions. These would be wholly self sustaining except acquiring the original breeding stock. Brazil could issue licenses and inspection of the breeding facilities. Then the popular Hypancistrus spp. could become a small business providing some jobs for locals and a constant revenue stream thus allowing the wild populations to be left alone. I do not generally support using hatchery fish for restocking streams where they are endangered but should some go extinct then I would support limited governmental projects to see if they can restore them into areas suitable assuming the Xingu dam is built and other proposed dams are but elsewhere. It would take some studies for each system to evaluated whether any suitable habitats exist down stream from any impoundments but the commercial breeding of these fish would probably be able to supply the world demand and a chain of custody would not be that hard to set up.

[TwoTankAmin]

When I quoted that phrase saying the enemy is us, I definitely meant fishkeepers in general and those in the industry. The only people who buy the fish we are discussing are hobbyists- myself included.
In a perfect world, none of us would ever buy fish like illegally caught/exported zebras etc. or any endangered species. Without any demand, there would be no reason to collect the fish or to smuggle them. However, it is not an ideal world.

I understand your point about the difficulty in policing the listings. What I wonder is why none of the catfish related sites have a policy against listing any of the fish involved in this discussion. Even if a site can't police things 100%, it can at least request that sellers refrain from listing species on the endangered list or which are banned for export and also that buyers do not post looking to buy them.

[Coryologist]

Gee, I really hate to plug my own show, but Ingo talks about pleco conservation, collecting plecos, Brazil and Suriname, "L-number Days," L046 and a few other topics on "Sounds Fishy to Me." It is a great show and extremely relevant to your discussion

The show will air on Saturday at 9 AM. 12 PM, 3 PM, 7 PM and 10 PM. Sunday at 10 AM, 1 PM, 4 PM, and 9 PM. These are eastern U.S. times. The show runs 1:00 in length.

The station page is located at: http://www.live365.com/stations/theamol

It's first 2 runs were the highest of any show to date, so there is no need for me to hype the show. Just thought you might be interested in hearing what Ingo has to say on the subject matter.

Cheers,

Frank

[apistomaster]

Hey Frank,

I think it is great you brought this broadcast up, so thanks.

[Coryologist]

My pleasure. The sound-quality is a bit funky, the first few minutes, but does improve as the show progresses. I'm still learning how to do this. Believe me when I tell you that it's a lot more difficult than spawning Corys. - Frank

[racoll]

Once this dam is built it will do permanant and irreversable damage to the Xingu and its loracaiid inhabitants,

dconnors,

The dam is not a forgone conclusion. There are many big infrastructure projects that get cancelled for various reasons.

It is not our place to conduct the conservation of these fishes. We do not have the facts required to carry it out effectively. We do not know the extent of the dam, and we do not know the range of the natural Hypancistrus populations. Causing the extirpation of populations unaffected would be foolhardy, and not in the interests of the conservation of the species involved. We are also not equipped to assess the genetic diversity of captive populations, or to attempt to control against inbreeding (people breeding F1 from the same stock together).

Conservation is the job of IBAMA, and they have already taken action in enforcing this list. We should respect their work. They are professionals.

They are certainly lobbying against the dam, and we should not be undermining them by buying illegally exported livestock. We should present a united voice against the damming, to the people who are able to make decisions.

Our job should be to learn more about captive maintenance/breeding, and attempt to have a self-sufficient hobby. We can also help raise the profile of the biodiversity in the area.

[Jools]

I understand your point about the difficulty in policing the listings. What I wonder is why none of the catfish related sites have a policy against listing any of the fish involved in this discussion. Even if a site can't police things 100%, it can at least request that sellers refrain from listing species on the endangered list or which are banned for export and also that buyers do not post looking to buy them.

Well, I can only speak for this site but what I could do is post a sticky on it - essentially explaining why we take a dim view of such activities. Who would like to draft it? For me, it's not a straight banning offence, it is, as you say, a request with a reason why behind it.

I do believe (and so we agree on this) that the way to position on this is to educate the end user, e.g. the aquarist, and that while profit, status and humans are involved, you won't reach everyone. Again, if we are talking about the end user, this is an ethical issue, not a legal one. It's in the same camp as keeping giant catfishes and we do have a sticky on that.

Jools