Pre-CSG Show meetup?

[MatsP]

I'm planning to meet up with Richard B on Saturday 19th Sep to go to the CSG Open show.

Is anyone else going to be there on Saturday or Sunday morning for a tour of shops in the area?

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Mats

[Jools]

I might go early on Sunday morning to meet up...

Jools

[MatsP]

Ok. When does Pier open on Sunday mornings? Or do you have another suggestion for where to "start off"?

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Mats

[Jools]

10am. That would make sense if we were going to Bolton and then North to Darwen. However, at that time of the day, it's 3.5hrs for me to get there non-stop - not a major problem - but what time does the auction start and can we work back from that?

Jools

[MatsP]

I don't actually know when the auction starts - "After the show", is all it says. The show starts at 1pm. I'd like to have some time to walk round it, but in my experience from other shows, it will take the judges at least a couple of hours to go through all categories, so I guess we don't need to be there until say 2.30 and still have some time to see the show fish, as well as get to the auction.

I'll probably bring a couple of bags of Corys for the Auction. Maybe a couple of larger bristlenoses too... But I don't want to bring too much before I've seen what sells and what doesn't.

As a side now, me and Richard are staying in the Travelodge at Blackburn, so we are close to Darwen, not so close to Bolton.

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Mats

[TP]

Usually the auction is scheduled to start at 1pm, although it sometimes is delayed by 15 minutes or so. The show benchs are set up in a different room so don't really affect the auction. I would aim to be there by 1, if you get there at 2.30 you will have missed a lot of it I would suspect.

[medaka]

Yes as Tony says the show tables are in another room, so the show will not interfere directly with the Auction.
The Auction is Scheduled for a 1pm start but again it might be shortly after 1pm.
However, I would plan to get there before 1pm as it usually gets pretty packed, and ends up being standing room only.

Hopefully I will be there too.
Looking forward to seeing you all.

[Jools]

Yes, and the auction can be awfully long if you have to stand. It appears the deciding factor here will be if I am travelling down alone or with a bunch of other Scots.



Jools

[Jools]

BTW, if we're going to visit BAS, we'd better check they're open.

It appears they are in administration: http://www.britains-aquatic.co.uk/mainpage.htm

Jools

[MatsP]

Yes, I did see that - wasn't quite sure if I should post about it or not, so in my indecision and "getting on with other things", slipped my mind.

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Mats

[CoryWally]

Looking forward to seeing you guys on Sunday. The auction room is pretty big, but as Adrian says, may be advised to get there in good time. I suspect BAS may not have had any new supplies for a few weeks considering their predicament - let us know if they have, sad news that such a big name of the aquatic retail business has gone under.

Mark.

[CoryWally]

Well no problems getting a seat - definately a buyers market with plenty of great catfish available at ridiculous prices!

Some of the fish I remember going through. cory's/sclero's/aspi's: venezualanus, araguaiaensis, black aeneus, albino sterbai, semiaquilis, diphyes, barbatus, prionotus, kronei, C112, C113 (real), C118, C119, CW022, CW123 (very nice!), oipaquensis, davidsandsi, adolfoi, duplicareous, metae, kanei, atropersonatus, axelrodi, weitzmani, pygmaeus; loricarids: L066, L333, L128, L200, Pecoltia sabaji (enormous), baryancistrus sp., lanceolata, LG6, Parotocinclus jumbo, etc etc. others: Agamyxis, amblyceps, ompok, bumblebees, craggy banjos, big woodcats, lots of dorads.

The show was well attended with plenty of quality and rare fish on the bench. I was impressed with the breeders teams entered with no less than 6 hypancistrus breeders groups. The variation in L066 youngsters (4 groups of KTP's) amongst breeders was interesting (revealing?)!

Well done to all those who entered fish in the show, great to see you all.
Mark.

[MatsP]

And I must apologize to anyone who expected to see me there. My wife broke a bone in her foot on Friday evening, and I spent Saturday morning at A&E instead of preparing to drive north, then the rest of the weekend looking after my wife and two kids... Seems like I missed quite a few bargains...

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Mats

[Richard B]

My apologies also...too much going on that needed my attention elsewhere

[Jools]

Well, it was a shame you chaps missed, I was looking forward to catching up. It was a great selection of fishes (and also plants - got some excellent big crypts and giant Vallis) and I'm delighted with my purchases which included some little Boraras and 8

Corydoras weitzmani

for £3 each and they were a good young adult size. They are in wonderful condition as well, so a real credit to the seller (I don't know who that was).

The only downside being the show, I was very disappointed to see that several species had photography "banning orders" on them. In my view, if you remove the sharing / show aspect of a fish show (and in this day and age you are directly doing that by banning the wider viewing of a species via digital pictures), then all you are left with is ego and prizes. I understand some fish are sensitive to photography, but we can take pictures without flash and also I suspect the experience of being photographed (after all judging has taken place) isn't measurably detrimental to fish that have already undergone the travel to the show and return experience anyway. As photography was banned, I did think about making a short video of a couple of the species that were really great fish for upload - but reckoned it would likely cause some form of upset.

Normally, I would just write this trend off as another nail in the show circuit coffin, but when I've paid my own cash to sponsor individual show classes, well I think that gives me the right to comment on it. Wonder what everyone else thinks?

Jools

[Richard B]

hmmm - disappointing as pics show people what they've missed & help generate interest/enthusiasm for attending the next event...

[Coryman]

Unfortunately I was not there as I had a speaking engagement in Kansas city. However I did have five fish entries, one of which was the eventual Best in Show.

The problem regarding photography was totally new to me and I only found out after i returned home. This has never been a problem for us before and I believe it was born out of rules imposed in the Yorkshire associations area.

This problem will be resolved at the next CSG committee meeting. My own view is that entering a fish in the competition gives the organisers the right to make images of it. I have never know any fish suffer irreversible damage from being photographed. We work damn hard to put on a good show and as far as I am concerned "If you don't want it photographed leave it at home"

I wouldn't mind betting the people that put "No photographs" stickers on their tanks would be the first to moan about the lack of pictures available on web sites or the lack of new pictures in magazines, with comments like same old, same old.

Ian

[CoryWally]

re the photography, I agree something needs to be decided.

Before I get going, I didn't have any 'NP' stickers on my fish, although one or two of the species I exhibited (Batasio species especially) would have been spooked by excessive flash, although I would have been happy for the odd picture to be taken.

Part of the 'problem' as photographers saw it, I believe, was the ban on photography before the show and until all judging was completed, which wasn't until after the auction, when many people were looking to leave. However, limited photography was permitted for CSG publication for fish which had been judged. This did lead to noticeable disturbance of fish which were on the bench adjacent to fish being photographed due to excessive flash. A period of time was provided at the end for photos, but nobody appeared to take the opportunity.

The issue regarding no photography stickers is, in my opinion, down to personal choice on the part of the exhibitor. There are a number of reasons why somebody might not want their fish photographed, the disturbance is one which for most species is not a major issue so long as flash is not excessive. A second reason is the unsolicited use of images for species which an exhibitor may not want distributed for many reasons e.g. they may have their own plans to publish the images of a rare species they have managed to obtain for whatever reason, or they do not want a third party making commercial gain out of the fish they have nurtured.

I think a more serious nail in the coffin would be to insist that exhibitors had to allow the photography and subsequent use of images of their fish by who ever for whatever means. The numbers of exhibitors will go through the floor, I fear.

There needs to be a pragmatic approach to this, banning flash photography is one, which would enable images before and after the show and maybe a sensible limit on the number of exhibits each exhibitor can apply a 'NP' sticker to could be a solution. An approach by a photographer to the exhibitor explaining why they'd like to capture an image would probably result in an agreeable outcome

That's my tenpenethworth

Mark.

[Jools]

So, if not for commercial gain and if video footage was taken (e.g. no flash) then no problem then?

How about making the owner of the fish clear and any use of the images must carry that information? Until the show I was under the impression that anyone showing fish was giving their permission to have photos taken. I stand corrected.

My point about nail in the coffin was taken wrongly. You're looking at it inwardly from the point of view of the number of people showing fish to judges, I was looking at it outwardly in terms of people showing fish to every one else. The CSG has made an excellent event in combining the show with the auction - but you've got to feel that a lot of people were there for the auction and not the show.

I didn't take any images at the end as there was clearly an "atmosphere" around taking pictures.

Jools

[MatsP]

I have been to two local(ish) shows around here. Both times, the audience that wasn't part of the showers could be counted on a one-armed mans fingers - ok, so at the first show there were some people who wandered in from the pub/bar area at the Mytchet Center. They left after a few minutes.

The second show, I met up with Roo of this forum, but again, the number of "spectators" were about two including me and Roo - there may have been one or two more people there. But certainly not a big crowd.

And most categories of fish were not heavily contested, as there were three prizes in each category, and quite often only three fishes in each category, a prize was almost guaranteed. Ok, to get FIRST price, you needed a good fish, but still...

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Mats

[The.Dark.One]

As far as I am aware, only one exhibitor didnt want photo's taking of his fish, before or after. He got permission in advance to do this. The issue of not taking photographs before judging has always been the case, as far as I am aware?

I can understand both points of view, but I think ultimately it should be up to the owner of the fish to decide; after all they are his/her fish. I think the reasons why he/she doesn't want photographs is for the owner, regardless of what others may think. If in future the rules state that entry means open season on photographs then it's up to the owner to decide whether to enter or not, at least it will be clear then.

Other than not taking photo's before judging (which I think has always been the case?), I can't see how one exhibitor not wanting his fish photographing meant there was an atmosphere, if one was perceived then that is unfortunate.

The show was a good one, and I think regardless of photography issues, the auction will always generate more interest than the show.

People who win a place shouldnt be frowned upon for their win just because other people havent entered any/enough fish. They have the interest and taken the time to show, its the ones that havent that are meaning that the shows are on the decline, but auctions still surviving.

[MatsP]

People who win a place shouldnt be frowned upon for their win just because other people havent entered any/enough fish. They have the interest and taken the time to show, its the ones that havent that are meaning that the shows are on the decline, but auctions still surviving.

No, that's not what I meant - what I meant is that (in the shows I've been to) the competition is not very high - that's not to say that the fish aren't good. I occassionally take part in a photo competition on a non-fish-related web-site. I'm glad if my entry gets a single vote (out of the 20 or so voters) at the end of the week. And even when there are only two or three entries, it is very good photos that win.

I'm just saying that there appear to be a small group of people who display fish on shows. I don't - mainly because of the palaver of getting a display tank that complies with whatever rules [usually similar, but not always the same for different shows], catching the fish (we all know how easy some catfish are), etc, etc. And I don't have that many fish that are good to exhibit. I certainly have a couple of bristlenoses that would score a point or two - but my largest L128 wouldn't be a winner on the last show I went to - not large enough to beat the one in the show, and there were other large Loricariidae (a gold nugget at least 8" long). I could have entered three of my Sturisoma and got a prize for each (assuming you could enter three of the same fish from one owner). My smallest, scruffiest [not that they are scruffy] eartheater would have, as there was no entry at all in that category! And my Centromochlus wouldn't have got very far, as there where two or three really nice fish (but Martin S' Jaguar cat that he got from Richard B would have got a good score and beaten the one in the show on size at least).

There were no photo issues at that show.

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Mats

[The.Dark.One]

Sorry MatsP, I misunderstood

[medaka]

I think that Jools point re: sponsors wishing to take photographs and 'do not photo' labels is valid; I too was a sponsor.

I am sure that when the CSG committee next meet, that this subject will be discussed in detail, and any amendments/riders that may enter the show rules will be published in due time for the 2010 show.

On a personal note; I have been to many fish shows all over the UK for many years now, my first show being in 1976; and this was the first time I had come across a exhibitor putting such a label on their tanks. I have to say, especially as the person had shown at the CSG for many years and to the best of my knowledge had not objected before that I found this disappointing, although I agree this was his prerogative.

[Jools]

I guess there were actually only a few fishes I wanted to take pictures of. The thing I guess is it would have been nice to know who the fish belonged to so I could go and have a quick chat with the owner and ask about permission to take pics (under supervision if necessary), but it all seemed a bit haphazard.

Let's see what happens as it obviously is a contentious point.

Jools

[Jools]

Other than not taking photo's before judging (which I think has always been the case?), I can't see how one exhibitor not wanting his fish photographing meant there was an atmosphere, if one was perceived then that is unfortunate.

I'll PM you on this, but I have pretty good reasons. Who was the person actually, I asked a couple of folks and they didn't seem able to tell me - I was just kind of interested in the reasons but mainly wanted to ask about taking a few pics for the site.

Jools

[The.Dark.One]

It is something that was brought up by an exhibitor at a Yorkshire show nearly 2 years ago (I think). Since the objection it was incorporated into the YAAS rules that photography wasnt allowed prior to the class being judged, and if the exhibitor didnt want photographs taking of his/her fish then they could put this on the label.

It may not have happened in FNAS shows, but it has in YAAS shows.

[Jools]

I too can see both sides, if I were showing fish, I wouldn't want the pictures distributed without credit to me and also like the idea of having a "photography half hour" or something to limit the fishes exposure - but I personally believe that it's a fish show not a fish competition - i.e. there's a wider thing than just winning flake food - it's about showing new and interesting fishes at their best to a wider audience and it's the constriction of that element that's got me writing all this. However I'm not sure it's only about the fish. Maybe photography should be blanket limited to official photographers.

I totally agree it's up to the show organisers to provide clarity on the issue and clearly photography before judging (like public access) shouldn't be, but I wanted to steer clear of the lawmaking processes generally - I'm not a great fan of that whole thing. What I was trying to find out is if the initiative is to protect the fish or the keepers interests, or both. I don't know who to ask, so I was kind of generally throwing out the question.

At the end of the day, there are thousands of visitors to this site weekly that aren't now going to see the fish on show. A small percentage of them could have got in their cars and turned up, but most of them live outside the UK!

Anyway, as I've said before, I think it'll all get figured out but just wanted to talk around the topic.

Jools

[grokefish]

Maybe they didn't want you to steal their fishes little souls Jools?


Matt

[andywoolloo]

I was looking forward to pics. But I understand if it stresses out the fish.