Strange woodcat

[The.Dark.One]

I bought 4 small woodcats at Castleford's auction yesterday. I'll try and get some pics up soon. The biggest is about 3.5 inches and I am told by the previous owner that he has had them for some time. Looking at the thickness and roughness of the pectoral and dorsal fin spines I would guess that they are adults.

At first glance they look like a Trachelyopterus sp but they have a white ventral area, similar to Tatia and Centromochlus, but the head seems too broad for them, and the caudal the wrong shape. The dorsal spine is very short, broad and has prominent granulations. The pec spines are thickened and also have the prominent granulations. I'm thinking it could be a Glanidium sp, or an as yet unseen dwarf Trachycorystes (if such a thing exists). It may be a Glanidium melanopterum as (from memory) they look similar to this:

http://lfsi.sites.uol.com.br/Glanidium_melanopterum.jpg

But from memory I don't think they had the modified anal fin that exists in Glanidium, Tatia and Centromochlus.

[Marc van Arc]

Something like this: Auchenipteridae sp`guyana` ?

[Martin S]

Look forward to seeing pictures, Steve - whatever they are!
You certainly seem to have all the luck getting your hands on some unusual fish.
Martin

[The.Dark.One]

Yes, I think that is the fish, so prob not G. melanopterum then.

Thanks guys. Will post pics ASAP.

[The.Dark.One]

Here are some of the images. Sorry about the quality, I really struggled where I was taking them, and they wouldnt keep still long. They are starting to eat now so hopefully they will start fattening up and healing (they were a bit rough when I got them). Largest is about 7cm TL, and is sexually mature. Hopefully you can see the spiny pec and dorsal spines and the very rough cranial plates.





Pectoral:

[Marc van Arc]

Yep, those are the same as mine.
If I remember correctly member CFC used to have one (or more?) too.

[CoryWally]

£5 for 4 fish seems pretty good value now!

Good catch Steve.

[Martin S]

£5 for 4 fish seems pretty good value now!

If i wasn't jealous before, I definitely am now!
Think I might have to start stalking you Steve, so I might get to see these fish before you
Martin

[CoryWally]

Martin,
There was some unusual stuff going through the auction, three species of Akysis ( a couple of quid each), big rusty plec at a fiver, a un id'd Hypancistrus (poss L400) at a tenner (I got that one) even a big tiger shovelnose for a tenner! Some cracking Asian bumblebees and buckets of good size synos. Some whopping Cory concolors also went through, amongst plenty of other more usual cats.

17 lots in total lasted from 2000-2345hrs, not bad for a Wednesday night auction in November! Next one is thrid Wednesday in February - get it in your diary.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Martin S]

Hi Mark
Are you trying to upset me even more
Sounds like a great night - wish I lived close enough to pop over for the next one.
Regards
Martin

[The.Dark.One]

Mark - Yes, sure were a bargain, and the auction was a very good one.

Martin - I do have the knack of tracking down some unusual stuff! Went to North Lakes Aquatics last Saturday, got 4 Brachyrhamdia sp. 1, 2 B. marthae. They had lots of other good stuff. They had some Ancistrus (wild) and Tatia that are the largest I have ever seen. Biggest Tatia must have been 6 inches.

Marc - I've had a reply from Luisa Soares-Porto. I'm just waiting for permission to share a bit of info on them.

[Marc van Arc]

Marc - I've had a reply from Luisa Soares-Porto. I'm just waiting for permission to share a bit of info on them.

I'm curious. I've written somewhere that Dr. Ferraris knew someone was working on this species and stopped doing so for some reason a few years back and that Mrs. Sarmento Soares did not reply to my request if she knew anything about this species. Perhaps she was working on it? Anyway, it seems there's a bit more info on them. Hope you'll get permission shortly!

Btw: your pictured specimen seems rather old. Does it constantly have the "angle" or did it move while you took the picture (which I actually think not, knowing them). Did you have a chance to talk about them with the previous owner ?
Of course you had already noticed it can do with some food. Imo these have not had a tank to themselves.

PS: Pls don't tease me: 6" Tatias should be pictured and shown

[The.Dark.One]

Marc - I've had a reply from Luisa Soares-Porto. I'm just waiting for permission to share a bit of info on them.

I'm curious. I've written somewhere that Dr. Ferraris knew someone was working on this species and stopped doing so for some reason a few years back and that Mrs. Sarmento Soares did not reply to my request if she knew anything about this species. Perhaps she was working on it? Anyway, it seems there's a bit more info on them. Hope you'll get permission shortly!

Btw: your pictured specimen seems rather old. Does it constantly have the "angle" or did it move while you took the picture (which I actually think not, knowing them). Did you have a chance to talk about them with the previous owner ?
Of course you had already noticed it can do with some food. Imo these have not had a tank to themselves.

PS: Pls don't tease me: 6" Tatias should be pictured and shown

Hi Marc
To be honest its not much more than you already know really. Its mainly about her opinion on which genus they are more closely related to.

The fish was just at that angle because he was in his defensive pose with his spines locked in place. They have been in with other fish and as you know arent the most voracious of eaters. Some have some skin and fin damage but hopefully condition and body will improve.

Like an idiot I didn't have my camera with me. They had about 5 and even the males were massive.

[Marc van Arc]

To be honest its not much more than you already know really. Its mainly about her opinion on which genus they are more closely related to.

Actually I have no clue about that, so I'm still very curious about her opinion.

The fish was just at that angle because he was in his defensive pose with his spines locked in place. They have been in with other fish and as you know arent the most voracious of eaters. Some have some skin and fin damage but hopefully condition and body will improve.

Damages will heal quickly ime.
These are really fond of bloodworms and will eat to the brim when given the opportunity, thus improving their condition. I take it they are in a separate tank?

Like an idiot I didn't have my camera with me. They had about 5 and even the males were massive.

Too bad. Could you pls try to describe them when you have a spare moment? Or are you refering to a known species?

[The.Dark.One]

As soon as I hear back I'll post.

Yes, I think they have started to eat gradually now, hopefully they will starte to gorge themselves. The person keeping them for me doesnt have a tank just for them but they are only in with Acanthodoras cataphractus, A. spinosissimus, Peckoltia brevis, and Agamyxis sp. so should be OK in terms of competing for food.

The Tatia were similar to intermedia (but not intermedia IMO) and also to the species in the Cat e log named as galaxias and neivai (which IMO possibly arent those sp IMO), but were v large.

[Marc van Arc]

As soon as I hear back I'll post.

Yes, I think they have started to eat gradually now, hopefully they will starte to gorge themselves. The person keeping them for me doesnt have a tank just for them but they are only in with Acanthodoras cataphractus, A. spinosissimus, Peckoltia brevis, and Agamyxis sp. so should be OK in terms of competing for food.

The Tatia were similar to intermedia (but not intermedia IMO) and also to the species in the Cat e log named as galaxias and neivai (which IMO possibly arent those sp IMO), but were v large.

Steve,
Knowing the eating habits of Doradidae from experience (especially that of Acanthodoras spp) I'd keep a close watch if the auchenipterids will get any food at all. I used to keep them with larger Auchenipteridae and some of them literally starved.

You know that T. intermedia is known to grow that large and that the pattern gets quite variable?
And could you expand a little on why you think galaxias and neivai are possibly not the right species?

[Marc van Arc]

Any chance you've seen this:

Tatia brunnea

?
Clog size of this species is not correct; I'll change that asap.

[grokefish]

Are you sure they are not half starves morrowi?
If you are sure can you point out the reasons please Marc?

Thanks

Matt

[The.Dark.One]

Are you sure they are not half starves morrowi?
If you are sure can you point out the reasons please Marc?

Thanks

Matt

I've had it confirmed by the ichthyologist that they are not morrowi, they are a new species, possibly new genus. morrowi are much wider in the head, pectoral girdle area, and not as elongated. The pectoral and dorsal spines are also different.

[The.Dark.One]

[
You know that T. intermedia is known to grow that large and that the pattern gets quite variable?
And could you expand a little on why you think galaxias and neivai are possibly not the right species?

I've asked him to keep an eye on their feeding. If they are struggling I'll have them moved.

Phew, the age old intermedia/galaxias/neivai debate. This issue is clouded by a few things:
1. The true identity and limits of intermedia, IMO, have not yet been fully resolved. If you look at the distribution of intermedia sensu lato, and discussion r.e. the colour/pattern of specimens from the type locality conmpared to other populations, in Sarmento-Soares & Martins-Pinheiro, it becomes evident that there is potential for future new species/sub species (IMO). Therefore, IDs on 'intermedia' must be treated with caution. The ones we have accepted in the hobby for many years may not even be intermedia sensu stricto. These specimens in the shop had the greenish base colour, but the caudal patterning was different to the 'standard' 'aquariust ID of intermedia.
2. Fish have been appearing in the hobby as galaxias and neivai, because they have small spots as they get larger, but when small they tend to have elongated patches like 'intermedia'. The fish in the Catelog as neivai dont have spots (or not many) when young, and their cranial bones and caudal shape do not match neivai, and their caudal pattern is wrong (bands in true neivai, mainly spots in these specimens, apart from in very small specimens). The ones in the CEL captioned as galaxias, I'm not yet convinced they are due to their pattern and colour, but I can't say with any certainty, they may even be the same fish you have as neivai. The ones in the CEL as neivai, I consider to be an undescribed sp, in the 'intermedia' complex. As mentioned already true neivai have vertically barred caudal fins.
3. Similar problem for aulopygia. The fish in Saramento-Soares has a completly different pattern (body and caudal) than the ones in the CEL.

[Marc van Arc]

Are you sure they are not half starves morrowi?
If you are sure can you point out the reasons please Marc?

The best reasons I can provide - besides the ones already given by Steve - are that I've been keeping these for quite some years now and they don't grow beyond approx. 8 cms. The colour is also very different: reddish-brown for this one opposed to a kind of chocolat brown for L. morrowi. And of course it lacks the postcleithral process which Liosomadoras does have.

[Marc van Arc]

Phew, the age old intermedia/galaxias/neivai debate.

That made nice reading Steve. When I have some more time, I'll dive into the Sarmento-Martins paper more thoroughly. It's a bit sad, but I guess Mees' 1974 book on Auchenipteridae has had it's best days as a reliable source by now...

Btw: as you didn't react to my previous posting: the fishes you saw in the LFS were not

Tatia brunnea

? Or did you miss that one?

[The.Dark.One]

Marc, it does have the post cleithral process, you can see it on my close up image of the head.

Sorry Marc, no they were not brunnea, they were more like a large 'intermedia'.

[Marc van Arc]

Marc, it does have the post cleithral process, you can see it on my close up image of the head.

My goodness, you are right!! I can also see it in the picture of the pectoral spine.
How come I never noticed that in my own specimens??
Even now I find it hard to find it in their pictures.

[The.Dark.One]

Marc, it does have the post cleithral process, you can see it on my close up image of the head.

My goodness, you are right!! I can also see it in the picture of the pectoral spine.
How come I never noticed that in my own specimens??
Even now I find it hard to find it in their pictures.

Luisa hasn't come back but one thing I'm sure I can share is that she considers it either a member of Liosomadoras or more likely, a new, related genus.

[Marc van Arc]

[Luisa hasn't come back but one thing I'm sure I can share is that she considers it either a member of Liosomadoras or more likely, a new, related genus.

For some reason that would indeed more appropriate.
I'm very excited. Finally, after all those years of being know as "Tatia novia spec Guyana" and later on as

Auchenipteridae sp`guyana`

these fish are on the brink of getting a scientific name.
And I? I'll get myself a new pair of glasses

[grokefish]

Cool and the gang.