Velvet?

Taratron · Post by **Taratron** » 21 Jan 2010, 16:10

Little itty bitty yellow spots indicate velvet. Is there any way to treat for velvet in regards to scaleless fish, pleco fry, and inverts?

As soon as I think one tank is fine, another clearly isn't!

tank is 20 gallons, with black cories, bristlenose fry and red cherry shrimp. I found an 'escapee' clown pleco in there who is covered with tiny yellow spots and breathing hard. The fry I can't tell about spots, since they have little speckles anyway. No sign on the cories yet...

wrasse · Post by **wrasse** » 21 Jan 2010, 16:37

IMO this is the hardest disease to diagnose and treat successfully. Lately there have been some sad cases documented on PC, affecting the stock of skilled fish-keepers.
It seems to me that clamped fins and rapid breathing are early signs, plus shedding slime (maybe) . The powdery white-ish yellowish skin follows soon after, but by then its too late.
If it can be caught early, treatment may be successful.
Sometimes one species is affected and killed, while others in the same tank are apparently unaffected.

I doubt if inverts are infected. But I don't know if the medication might adversely affect them. Avoid copper-based meds...

L number Banana · Post by **L number Banana** » 21 Jan 2010, 17:28

I don't know if it's what I had but my was covered in raised yellow/white dots. Used Rid-Ich at 1/2 strength. In another tank, it looked like it had already moved in without me noticing anything different. Upon close inspection, all the fish were behaving normally but maybe had lost their sheen. Like an idiot, I waited for another day with that tank because the P.maccus in there showed no sign of spots.

Next day everyone was up at the top or hanging out at the airstone or filter. Nightime catfish included! Did a massive water change, dosed as per catfish instructions, raised temp, added another airstone.

Lost no one in the main tank, even the very spotty Panaque maccus was fine even though it took a good week for the spots to go away completely.

Next day, lost everyone in the second tank except the P.maccus. All other catfish and rosy barbs gone. Only visible sign was a matte finish like velvet on all the fish, especially the synos.

There were no introduced fish except S. lucipinnis and they were not 'new'. The only saving is that I think I introduced it to the second tank by using the same net and possibly the same water-change bucket. It taught me to colour-code my equipment and use each for one tank only.

Good luck!

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 21 Jan 2010, 21:16

L Number Banana,
The symptoms you describe have always turned out to be Chilodonella when I have examined skin smears under my microscope. It is affecting the gills every bit as much as the skin. Treatment takes much longer than Ich or velvet. I use malachite green, 1 tbs salt/gal, the warmest water the species can tolerate and supply additional aeration. By the time you notice nodules the disease is in an advanced state and some losses are inevitable. It may take 3 or 4 weeks to effect a complete cure.

Taratron,
Velvet does look like fine gold dust on fins and body of fish and is rather an infrequent disease among catfish.
I use malachite green for fish in a one drop per gal recommended doses. I never use the commonly available combination malachite green and formalin preparations. Fresh water velvet ciliates don't like salt so use it with malachite green. One tbs/gal of salt. Some scaleless fish are hypersensitive to malachite green so it is best to try half the normal recommended dose. Velvet responds to treatment slower than Ich and for that reason the treatment period should be up to 2 weeks to be sure of effecting a cure. While all the armored catfish are technically scaleless fish I find they tolerate the full recommended dose well. Loaches and many scaled small Characins like Cardinal Tetras are also sensitive to malachite green and it is best to begin with half the recommended dose and work your way up. The amount of organics in established tanks diminishes the effectiveness and often makes it safe to use the full dose but in a bare clean treatment tank use the more conservative dosing regime. Raising the temperature is not likely to decrease the treatment period as well as an elevated temperature does with Ich.

There is a lot of variability among small fish sensitivity to malachite green but my own experience has been that it is safer than the weaker malachite green/formalin medications. I will not use formalin to treat my own fish.

Velvet is the bane of Killifish and wild Betta species breeders and because I have raised well over 120 species of Killiefish and many wild Betta species I am very accustomed to having to treat them for velvet. It is customary to keep and breed many species in water containing a tsp of salt per gal. It is very helpful in preventing velvet outbreaks in Killiefish fry tanks.
Fry are very susceptible because they are often crowded which makes them especially vulnerable. A little salt minimizes outbreaks.

Taratron · Post by **Taratron** » 21 Jan 2010, 22:47

Do you mean standard aquarium salt, not marine salt, correct?

Also, how do other keepers who use a python water changer keep disease from spreading? Sterilize between tanks?

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 21 Jan 2010, 22:58

Aquarium Salt/plain rock salt like that used to recharge some water softeners. The latter is much cheaper than little boxes of "aquarium salt".
Marine salt mix would raise the pH and TDS too high.

L number Banana · Post by **L number Banana** » 22 Jan 2010, 04:54

Apistomaster wrote:

L Number Banana,
The symptoms you describe have always turned out to be Chilodonella when I have examined skin smears under my microscope. It is affecting the gills every bit as much as the skin. Treatment takes much longer than Ich or velvet. I use malachite green, 1 tbs salt/gal, the warmest water the species can tolerate and supply additional aeration. By the time you notice nodules the disease is in an advanced state and some losses are inevitable. It may take 3 or 4 weeks to effect a complete cure.

Thanks I'll look that up. I was told that this was a type of 'fast moving' new ich that makes raised bumps on plecos so that's why I used the Rid-Ich. The other fish just looked like they had become like very short napped felt - not fuzzy but more like real velvet. Just enough to take the sheen off. I looked at the gills on each of them and the bellies, bums, mouth etc but there was nothing unusual except for the skin.
The bumps were only on the P.maccus and were definitely NOT there the day before, I think he was looking a bit blanched though, I can't remember exactly why I made an effort to get a close look at him. He's the very territorial one so he's also the one that is always visible, won't let any fish use the space between him and the glass.
His bumps were white/yellow with distinct spaces between them and the treatment I used was only five days. Does this sound right? No one had any laboured breathing or feeding issues. Even the spotty guy was still eating normally and defending his post. What should I have looked for in the gills of the ones that died? I was looking to see if they were ragged or red but I didn't really know what I was looking for, just gathering info.The P. maccus is still healthy with nice bright stripes and back to defending the castle.

The tank was cleaned and now it's home to most of the cats that came from the 33gal. Should I be worried that the treatment/cleaning may not have gotten rid of something?

Everyone's been there for a while - need to update My Aquaria but things look healthy and lively.

I'll look up Chilodonella so I get a heads up if it's still lurking. Maybe I had two issues?

Sorry for the minor Hijack Taratron but any info Apistomaster can shed on this will probably help more than just me. This whipped thru my tank so fast, even posting for help then wouldn't have helped

Taratron · Post by **Taratron** » 22 Jan 2010, 04:56

I have no worries of hijacking! Pulled all the fish with spots I could and into a QT tank. I think I lost a chunk of my fry already, my own fault for not keeping better tabs on them...

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 22 Jan 2010, 07:05

I can only try to figure out exactly what is going on with any ones' fish diseases. It really requires a microscope to make definitive diagnosis.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 22 Jan 2010, 11:22

I believe regular "cooking" or "table" salt will also be absolutely fine for medicinal use. The tiny amount of anticaking agent isn't harmful to the fish as far as I can determine. Or Kosher salt, if you don't want the anticaking agent to be a factor - but there is only about 20 mg of anticaking agent per kilo of salt, so it's really not a big difference.

--
Mats

Taratron · Post by **Taratron** » 22 Jan 2010, 13:55

Allllright. Another tank, 2 of them, with hard breaks. And here's the best past I can put together (working like mad and a new position is taking a toll), and of course it starts with a lack of QT.

A week or two or three ago I did some tank rearranging. Cleared out a 20 that had tatias and clown plecos and moved them to my 90. The 20 became a new place for bristlenose fry and two clown plecos I could not catch. One pleco I did catch leapt from the containment cup and landed in another 20 gallon.

PetsMart had a sale on rubbernose plecos. Well, color me awesome! Bought 6 of them and put them into a 10 gallon QT tanks. Right now I have one of them left. The nets likely helped transfer the velvet too.

The 90 broke on the tatias and the clown plecos now in there. Tatias are dying or dead come this morning and I'm trying to get the clowns out. No luck so far.

I might be looking at a total tank meltdown.

SO FAR there are three tanks unaffected: my 55, my mom's tank, and a 20 in the hallway. Those guys I will not be touching with any equipment or jack crap from the other tanks. Time to buy more nets, perhaps a second python...

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 22 Jan 2010, 16:10

I empathize with your plight. Even though I know better I have lapses when I short cut quarantine of new fish and it has often cost me dearly. I had collected a nice group of 20 adult Centromochlus perugiae and had them for about 10 months in their own 20 gal long. I really wanted to breed them just for that added notch on my list. I bought 6 Hemigrammus pulcher, Garnet/Pretty Tetras, from the LFS and put them in with these catfish but the Tetras introduced a disease which ran through the catfish like wild fire and I lost everyone plus the Tetras within a week.

Taratron · Post by **Taratron** » 22 Jan 2010, 16:21

Here's what I don't get (and knock on wood) but through this all, I've kept the bamboo shrimp AND the kuhli loaches and the oto fine in my 90. How are they so resilient?

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 22 Jan 2010, 16:28

I don't know. I have had outbreaks that wiped out many species and left others untouched even in a diseased tank.
I am glad that is the case. I find that Discus rarely get sick from common fish diseases unless they are really neglected.
They are made out to be so delicate but they really aren't. As a fish breeder I believe in diversity so in the worst case scenarios I won't lose every thing I raise to a single disease.
Of course, the invertebrates have their own diseases and are not susceptible to diseases of fishes.

bunnyrabbit · Post by **bunnyrabbit** » 23 Jan 2010, 07:20

Are there any other signs of velvet on plecos esp zebras which make it easier to id.

Taratron · Post by **Taratron** » 23 Jan 2010, 07:28

I have no zebras (was thinking about it, but clearly I need to do more work with the easier plecos first!).

So far the other tatias look like crap, the rubbernose are dying, and I doubt the clowns will pull through. I lost one L204 so far. Fingers crossed on the others. Provided they make it, in a month or so of treatment I'll move them to the 90 gallon.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 23 Jan 2010, 08:07

For what it's worth, over the more than 4 decades I have been involved with fish, including when i had a fish shop with over 80 sales tanks plus my hatchery/quarantine back room with about 60 more tanks, I can't recall ever having to deal with Velvet among plecos. I have always had a quality microscope so it has always been easy for me to accurately diagnose skin parasites. They are quite large compared to bacteria. Low powers are good enough to see most and 400X is the greatest power I have ever needed to use.
I'm not implying that plecos are immune to Velvet but it is pretty uncommon.
Velvet is also easily treated and it progresses slowly. It is most dangerous to small fry. I am saying that there is normally time to decide if fish have Velvet then begin treating them with malachite green. I haven't tried some of the other meds that are known to work but many are copper sulfate based or contain formalin and I do not use these chemicals to treat velvet. Methylene blue has no effect on velvet.

wrasse · Post by **wrasse** » 23 Jan 2010, 12:03

It seems people's experience of velvet varies.
A microscope is great for an accurate diagnosis. I don't know of anyone else who uses one.
To avoid cross-contamination, some shops in the UK put their nets into a bucket with a strong myxazin solution, or they keep one net devoted to one tank. You could also put the nets in very hot water, or let them completely dry-out.

Taratron · Post by **Taratron** » 23 Jan 2010, 13:27

The Mardel medicine I picked up lists Malachite Green as the main ingredient, but...the liquid is blue. Any issue?

Taratron · Post by **Taratron** » 23 Jan 2010, 13:32

Crud. In the midst of all this my mom asked me where my male 'colorful' fish was that ended up in the 20 gallon fry tank, since his previous tank struck a leak. My Fundulopanchax amieti. And I realized I haven't seen him in a while. But even if he died from velvet, would it be likely to spread to the other fish? I can't remember when I saw him last, and haven't found a body--that said there is a spot in the back he could have jumped out and the cats may have found him. Crap crap crap.

The spots I see on the tatia and rubbernose are very small, fine, and gold-yellow. No sign of it on the black cories yet, or the hoplos, or the banjo cats or oto in the 90. If not velvet, what else could it be? I know this seems to be very fast acting...

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 23 Jan 2010, 13:56

In my limited experience, it does sound like Chilodinella to me. Same medication as white-spot.

--
Mats

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 23 Jan 2010, 14:07

It does sound like velvet.
Malachite Green "Ich" medicine is actually more blue green and it will stain the silicone sealant a little.
If in doubt you could treat the tank where any chance of cross contamination may have occurred. It is easier to prevent an outbreak before seeing any of the gold dust manifestation of velvet than it is to cure heavily infected fish.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 23 Jan 2010, 14:39

Here is a handy guide to fish diseases that I bookmarked so it is always easy to reference.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FA/FA04100.pdf

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