Brazil grants licence for Belo Monte dam

[HaakonH]

I just read this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8492577.stm

-Haakon

[MatsP]

Sad, but sort of expected.

--
Mats

[sidguppy]

the only thing the economists seem bent on is to destroy as much of the earth before they go to hell

the fiction that unlimited growth on a planet with limited resources is a fairy tale doesn't seem to catch on.

the odd thing is; they never seem to plan such things where the landscape is done for, but always in a spot where there still is a lot of unique wildlife to make the sheer scale of destruction as large as they possibly can get away with

makes me want to chew bricks and start a global war on humans

if those planners would REALLY want to do ome long term planning, they should get a birth control program up and running.
THE cause of all the other problems (war, destruction of nature, hunger, global warming, deforestation, wanton disease eetc) is overpopulation.

but the lot of humanity still seems to think we have this inalienable "right" to proliferate.
wich makes us about as intelligent as bacteria, or say cockroaches.

[Bas Pels]

It was expected, but still I feel miserable

However, with luck, they will not be able to get the loans - but then one may not expect to be lucky

[plecoboy]

That is sad. So which plecos will be affected? L174, L333, L400 ?

[andywoolloo]

Gave me the shivers when I read that bbc link.

and yes I was wondering the same thing as prior poster.

Are all belo monte pl*cos the lower xingu hypans or more then that?

Reminds me when they built a dam and then had to make some type of bridge or stairs for the salmon I think.

Reading that was very sad. How can you do anything like that in the amazon rain forest. Things exist there that to do not exist anywhere else in the world, right? Won't that upset some global balance thing? It seems very much not right. I mean I do not know much about it and it seems very very bad to me.

[MatsP]

Xingu fishes. That's probably not entirely complete, but it's a large portion.

--
Mats

[Bas Pels]

70 species out of the cat e log

Which is far from complete, but we may assume only part of the Xingu will be destroyd, 400 km or so, not al of it.

So that more or less equals each other out, I think

further, catfish comprise perhaps 30 % of all species in a South American river, no more

That would sum op to 200 to 250 species of fish

Gone

Would it be a good idea to try and write all companies which might get involved in this project not to do so? With enough publication many might decline - and without contractors, the dam will not be build

[Mike_Noren]

Just pointing out that the Brazilian IBAMA no longer has the authority to stop developments for environmental reasons; they can only approve. The president turned them into a rubber-stamp to keep them from interfering with his grand scheme for Amazonia.

[Janne]

Under 2009 the government in Brazil was proposing several hydro electric plants along Rio Tapajos, Rio Jamanxim and Rio Teles Pires, not a single word about Belo Monte until now... I was afraid they was moving the attention from Rio xingu to Rio Tapajos so they could make a fast decision about the Belo Monte project without protests. Rio Xingu have more than 500 different species of fishes, at least 100 of them is catfishes, the largest problem when they build this dam is that they will cut of the big bend south of Altamira and build channels to the south of Belo Monte... this area is the habitat for many endemic species where almost no water will flow after the dam is built, the funniest thing is that they made this exactly area to a biological reserve with lots of restrictions for some years ago. Typical Brazilian common sence.

Anyway, I think it will take some years before they can start if someone wants to pay 800 million $ for the protection of the environment and the indigenous people in the area... of course if the Brazilian government will draw the terms back caused by lack of interest when they start the bidding it may happen faster. There will be lots of discussions here in Brazil, thats for sure.

Janne

[L number Banana]

Anyway, I think it will take some years before they can start if someone wants to pay 800 million $ for the protection of the environment

Anyone know Bill and Melinda Gates?

This will also screw over birds butterflies, bug, plants AND probably people to.

[Janne]

The company that win the bid and will build and run the hydroelectric plant has to pay 800$ million for the enviroment protection, so I hope not Melinda and Bill Gates pay ;)

Janne

[bronzefry]

We aren't even saying a word about the people who live there. There are people, right?
Amanda

[MatsP]

We aren't even saying a word about the people who live there. There are people, right?
Amanda

Very much so, about 40000 peopel may be affected, it says in the article that HaakonH posted a link to.

--
Mats

[sidguppy]

that's bad too

but for me fish count more than people

wild animals rarely can go elsewhere, people can.

those 40.000 people won't die when the dam is build; but those millions of irreplacable unique fish will.

the human species is overrunning the planet; well over 7 billion.
I don't think that apart from bacteria or roaches and mice that no single species has that many individuals up and running, not even many insects......
we are virus. vermin.

so the people issue I usually overlook.

but I have to admit; those aboriginal people liiving in that rainforest are a LOT more unique than the usual westernized bums of different color of wich there are at least 6 billion or so (modern chinese, africans with AK47's, Europeans, N Americans, SE Asians, Latino's all count as westernized bums).
the indeginous peoples on this planet have something for them

the rest is just more of the same. they might speak a different language or some have a bit more cash than the others; but it's all filler to me. numbers.

[DJ-don]

i feel so useless now that the rio xingu is gonna go in 2015
but like most of you guys said, someone would have to fork out a lot of money to do this
i even sent a letter just last wek to the brazilian ambassoder in canberra which was easy for me because he is my friends father

[racoll]

i even sent a letter just last wek to the brazilian ambassoder in canberra

That's a cool thing to do. More aquarists should do this kind of thing.

[DJ-don]

i even sent a letter just last wek to the brazilian ambassoder in canberra

That's a cool thing to do. More aquarists should do this kind of thing.

thanks racoll
i got a reply the other day and he said there is nothing in his power that he can do
he also ranted on about economy and glbal warming too
but i thought that alot of co2 will com out from the trees which will have to b knocked down to make way for the dam
and plus they should do what china does-population/birth control

[L number Banana]

We aren't even saying a word about the people who live there. There are people, right?
Amanda

LNB wrote: This will also screw over birds butterflies, bug, plants AND probably people to.

Just think of what the world is losing when those people move and become just like everyone else, not so easy to restart a language, a story, a habit, a way of life

You'd think we'd learn after wiping out so much native culture everywhere else..
Mighty dollar disguised as progress.

But like Janne says:

The company that win the bid and will build and run the hydroelectric plant has to pay 800$ million for the enviroment protection, so I hope not Melinda and Bill Gates pay ;)

Janne

It just makes you wish everyone believed in a very nasty heaven or hell sort of thing that scared them into finding ways to do the right thing. Humans can do an awful lot of wonderful and imaginative things but the white hats rarely get the chances/funding that the black hats do.

This is one of those things that you just get fed up and wonder what you can do.

[Mike_Noren]

It just makes you wish everyone believed in a very nasty heaven or hell sort of thing that scared them into finding ways to do the right thing.

I hereby bet that those $800M will actually turn out to be less than one tenth of that, and spent on a) a fish ladder which doesn't work, b) PR about how environmentally friendly the dam is, and c) introduction of tilapia and goldfish into the reservoir to "restock the fishery".

[MatsP]

I hereby bet that those $800M will actually turn out to be less than one tenth of that, and spent on a) a fish ladder which doesn't work, b) PR about how environmentally friendly the dam is, and c) introduction of tilapia and goldfish into the reservoir to "restock the fishery".

I would not bet against that prediction...

--
Mats

[Janne]

I hereby bet that those $800M will actually turn out to be less than one tenth of that, and spent on a) a fish ladder which doesn't work, b) PR about how environmentally friendly the dam is, and c) introduction of tilapia and goldfish into the reservoir to "restock the fishery".

I can bet on C, Tilapia is completely forbidden to culture in the state of PARA, Goldfish would not survive.

But on A and B I cant bet against you which I whished I could, the fishladder have never worked in any earlier dam constructions here in Brazil... if there is a way to force them to keep a certain flow through the big bend would be the best solution. Another thing why they not probably will build a fishladder at all is because Rio Xingu is not considered to house any migration fish species... the Dolphins can't pass the rapids and waterfalls? The largest catfishes that is known to migrate like B. filamentosum and Zungaro zungaro don't exist in Rio xingu but there are other very large catfishes in this river there no study are made if they migrate or not.

Janne

[Mike_Noren]

I can bet on C, Tilapia is completely forbidden to culture in the state of PARA, Goldfish would not survive.

The problem is that very few species thrive in hydropower dams, so exotic species will have to be introduced if there's to be any sizeable fishery. Tilapia is a common choice, and you greatly underestimate the survival-power of goldfish and carp, but maybe they'll use some other exotic.

if there is a way to force them to keep a certain flow through the big bend would be the best solution.

Yes, that might save some of the species living downstream, but considering that the project already is expected to not produce electricity for three months per year, I suspect they're unwilling to release any more water than they absolutely have to during the dry season.

no study are made if they migrate or not.

The environmental impact assessment was a fraudulent joke, in my opinion.

[Janne]

The problem is that very few species thrive in hydropower dams, so exotic species will have to be introduced if there's to be any sizeable fishery. Tilapia is a common choice, and you greatly underestimate the survival-power of goldfish and carp, but maybe they'll use some other exotic.

Tilapia is out of question and will never happen, when they built the Tucurui dam they thought the fishery will suffer and introduced foreign species... no one survived. Today have the fishery doubled the yearly catch compared to before the dam was built. To many large native predatory fish species will wipe out every single fish they try to introduce, above that... Rio xingu is famous for the large populations of Candiru's, I don't think the authorities here will make the same mistake... but I'm not 100% sure.

Janne

[TwoTankAmin]

I am beginning to think it is rapidly becoming essential that as many fish that can be caught and removed from Brazil in violation of their local laws should be ASAP.

If dedicated fishkeepers around the world can't get them into tanks and spawning, all these species will be lost.

To my mind this is now the ethical thing to do even if it is not the legal one.

[Janne]

I am beginning to think it is rapidly becoming essential that as many fish that can be caught and removed from Brazil in violation of their local laws should be ASAP.
If dedicated fishkeepers around the world can't get them into tanks and spawning, all these species will be lost.
To my mind this is now the ethical thing to do even if it is not the legal one.

I don't agree at all, thats one of the reasons I'm here running some projects... I think if these species can't be saved in nature they should be bred in Brazil under controlled forms as a combination of conservation and profit for the people how lives here... not in other countries.

Janne

[DJ-don]

btu can i ask have people forgotten about fish that havent even been discovered?
who knows what other fish are in the river
thats what im most worried about

[MatsP]

btu can i ask have people forgotten about fish that havent even been discovered?
who knows what other fish are in the river
thats what im most worried about

Not at all forgotten, I'd say. But we already KNOW that there is some amazing fish in this river that are found nowhere else in the world.

--
Mats

[Mike_Noren]

Tilapia is out of question and will never happen, when they built the Tucurui dam they thought the fishery will suffer and introduced foreign species... no one survived.

I checked the reports on the Tucurui dam, because I do not know much about it. Of the ten most fished species before the dam, five are now completely gone. The two species comprising the vast majority of catches now, were not present in catch statistics before the dam was built - if that means that they were rare or they are introduced, I do not know. Large predatory species have declined, as have total catch below the dam, the increase in catches is due to an enormous increase in plankton & insect feeding fish in the dam itself.

Today have the fishery doubled the yearly catch compared to before the dam was built.

On average, yes. It's increased 900% in the dam itself, stayed unchanged upstream, and decreased downstream. The increase in catch in the dam itself is due to the fertilizing effect of the nutrients leaking from all the rotting vegetation, i.e. the effect is largely temporary, although some of it is apparently also due to increased sewage discharge from an increased human population. The eutrophication of what used to be an oligotrophic river causes increased plankton & insects, and so an increase in plankton-eating fish.

To many large native predatory fish species will wipe out every single fish they try to introduce

I don't think the predators will be able to do much, especially not as their numbers decline because they are no longer able to reproduce. In Rio Sao Francisco most of the catch is now made up by introduced species such as carp, and the populations of native predatory fish dependent on restocking from hatcheries.

[Janne]

Mike,
Yes, you are correct and a dam construction is no good for many species of fishes special the endemic ones, one thing very important is that before the dam and still today there are really little real studys made about the diversity of fish species. Another different between Rio Tocantins and Rio Xingu is that Tocantins was a playground for large species of migrating catfishes when in Xingu the large catfishes is not migrating, if the last is true I don't really know but that is what they say. Rio sao Francisco is in other states south of the Amazonia or in old books at the border to former Amazonia... not much left there.

Janne