What are my catfish?

[Suuzzz]

Hello all!

I hope you can help me with my question.

I have 2 catfish, 1 female and 1 male/female,

i hope you know which species they are and if the one with the little brush is a male or female?

Here are the pictures:

female:

brown, the dots are kind of regular and she is about 8 cm's and at least 2 years old



sorry i don't have a picture of her belly, she rarely hangs on the glass.

male:

brown, no dots on his back-body, a few vague ones on his head and his belly. He's (or she?) is about 6 months old and also about 8 cm long

[MatsP]

The second pictures shows an

Ancistrus

of some sort - there are about 100 different species, and most are brown with lighter spots, which makes them pretty darn difficult to identify.

The first one, I think, is NOT an Ancistrus, but something like

Parotocinclus spilosoma

.

--
Mats

[Suuzzz]

oh mennn you seem really sure about the upper one not being an ancistrus? i got the new one (the ancistrus) as companian for her, or is it a he?
I can't find a picture of a parotocinclus that looks exactly like mine, with all the regular dots so if anyone knows where i can find one...

thanks for your really quick answer!

[MatsP]

Did you click on the link to P. spilosoma in the post above? This picture looks like a good match:


I'm 99% sure that your first fish is NOT an Ancistrus - unless the picture is very distorted and the body shape isn't at all representative in the picture you have shown - also, unless your fish has been starved, I'd expect it to be larger than 8 cm after 2 years in your keep.



--
Mats

[MatsP]

Further to the above:
If you look at the tail of the fish in your first picture, you can see that the "corners" are rounded. In your second picture, the corners are "sharp" or "angular". This is a key difference between, in general, Ancistrinae [the group in which Ancistrus and several other closely related species] and Parotocinclus [and I think all the Hypopotmatinae - the group in which Parotocinclus belongs - but I'm less familiar with this group than the Ancistrinae group].

--
Mats

[Suuzzz]

Hi,

i did click on the picture and i admit it looks really close but the dots are not similar. Mine has dots in a row from the front to the back. Only on its head they seem randomly dropped. I agree with you with the tail looking more rounded and a bit split in the middle. So i think you are right about the parotocinclus. Well, maybe the dots differ per individual. Gonna search for a bit more info on the net tomorrow.

Thank u very very much for solving my mystery . I guess the ancistrus has to leave and maybe i can find a real friend for mrs or mr paraotocinclus

[MatsP]

From the other pictures in the Cat-eLog, it appears that they are quite variable.

It is also POSSIBLE that you have a different species. There are some similarities with

Parotocinclus haroldoi

, but I'd expect that to be a very rare fish in the trade, as it's from "the wrong place to end up int he trade" - they are from the Northeastern Atlantic coast, and we don't get many fish from there... Its' POSSIBLE, but I find it unlikely - also, the body shape doesn't look QUITE right.

--
Mats

[Suuzzz]

hmm the haroldoi is 30 mm according to the Cat-eLog.. so i guess that won't be it. That's more otocinclus size and i do have those too so i can compare. The dots are more similar to mine but mine is definitely bigger than 3 cm.

[sunfish]

I agree the first one definitely looks like P. spilosoma/P. spec. Recife. But 8cm is way too big. Have you actually measured it? But it is definitely not an Ancistrus.

The second one is some kind of Ancistrus, most likely a WC sold as common bristlenose. I don't think you'll be able to find a second one (but it'll do fine on its own). I'd say it's a girl.

[MatsP]

P. spilosoma is listed as 52mm SL - add 20% for caudal makes about 6cm, so yes, 8cm would be a whopper. But almost all of us overestimate the size of fish in tanks unless using ruler to measure exactly.

I'd agree that the Ancistrus is quite possibly a female - it's still young/small [most likely, as nearly all species reach somewhere between 8-15cm SL, which is about 10-18cm total length].

--
Mats

[Suuzzz]

well i did not measure it exactly, it's a rough guess. I measured today with a cm outside the aquarium so not really exact but i measured about 5 centimeters including the tail. My eye is indeed too big... The ancistrus is a little bit bigger. Also found out that my otocinclus macrospilus are only 2 cm's including tail.

What is WC?

I actually don't want a second ancistrus but a second parotocinclus and hope they will breed. Is there a way to find out if it's male or female?
Got the ancistrus from someone who had 2 of them in a 60 cm aquarium. He wanted to get rid of one because they we're fighting. He thought it were both males.. maybe he wants it back now it pretends to be a female

I got the parotocinclus with the Rio125 i bought from someone including the fish. Too bad i lost his emailadress so i can't ask if he knows more

[MatsP]

WC = Wild Caught or "not bred in captivity".

If it's real fights, then it's a male. If it's just "playfighting", it could be a female trying to test the male. Without seeing how the fight appears in the tank, I can't say.

For the Parotocinclus, _IF_ you can find more of them, I'd be tempted to get 5-6 more - hopefully that will give you at least one "opposite of what you've got".

--
Mats

[Suuzzz]

hm the tank isn't big enough to house 6 of those i think. Guess i'll have to let go that dream of breeding them. But i'll keep my eye on the fishstores

Thank u all for helping me with this

[MatsP]

So they are not in the RIO125? I'd say a group of 6 or so P. spilosomoa would go well in a RIO125 - obviously subject to other inhabitants. And like nearly all plecos, they do best in a small group.

--
Mats

[naturalart]

"I guess the ancistrus has to leave and maybe i can find a real friend for mrs or mr paraotocinclus"

Based on the fact that you look like you have a planted tank, the Ancistrus sp. might be of greater practical value than the Paraotocinclus sp.. In my experience nothing beats a hungry ancistrus at algea maintenance. That said the Paraotocinclus look pretty cool too. Maybe, if your tank is big enough, or you dont mind supplementing their diet, you can keep a pair/group of Paraotocinclus sp. and an Ancistrus.
My 2 cents

[Suuzzz]

well, they are in a planted rio 125 (about 100 liters netto), 80 cm wide.

with 4 pangio kuhlii, about 10 otocinclus macrospilus, about 10 corydoras pygmeus, 2 betta splendens female and a betta splendens male, loads of red cherry shrimps and 1 atyopsis moluccensis. And the 2 catfish. Maybe i can leave them both in the tank and see how it goes. If i ever find a lookalike parotocinclus i can always see if the ancistrus has to go or not. If he gets too big or bully he/she has to leave too.

[naturalart]

I think you are ok with keeping all those loricarids together. If you add more Paraotocinclus, I would strongly suggest suppemental feedings of zucchini/courgett?(sp), sweet potato, lettuce, etc.

The Ancistrus will always insist on being first during these feedings, so I would suggest 2 pieces in separate locations. In turn the Paraotocinclus will probably dominate the Otocinclus. This is just the natures of Loricarids. As you know 98% of Loricarids are substrate feeders weather its inverts or algea. These things don't move much. So the loricarid wants to insure as much of this sustenance for itself as possible. Thus the territorial behavior. Only the Ancistrus can't be everywhere at once, so, in such a large tank, the Paraotocinclus are fine as long as they dont challenge Ancistrus. Likewise the oto's to the Paraotocinclus. Each one of these Loricarids considers the substrate, glass, rock, plants and/or other furniture to be their own territory.

Many people keep numerous species of loricarids together. As long as there is enough to eat territorial behavior can be minimized. Maybe others can speak to varying degrees of tolerance species to species?

Sounds like a great tank, have fun!

[Suuzzz]

thank you

well my biggest worry is that the parotocinclus becomes stressed because of the ancistrus. The parotocinclus is not really aggressive against the otocinlus. they all feed together, but since the ancistrus is in my tank (about 2 weeks now), all of them has to move away as he approaches his food in a bully way. I gave him a piece of cucumber and he hung on it all day eating. Some oto's did get a chance to eat on the outside but the parotocinclus stays on the other side of the wood, out of sight of the ancistrus and didn't try to get at the cucumber. I'll try two pieces. I do have another 50 liter tank, maybe i'll put the ancistrus in there if he gets too bully. it will be hard to catch it without ruining my scape...

edit: wonderfully she was clutching under a piece of wood when i lifted it up and i could easily catch it with a net. So the ancistrus is in the 50 liter tank now where she is frantically eating the algae from the back. She happy, me happy, and hopefully the parotocinclus and otocinclus happy

[Suuzzz]

it's been a while. Still not sure if it's a parotocinclus. Didn't find anything looking like him or her. I managed to take a pic when it was hanging on the front (which it rarely does). Maybe it's a bit easier to identify now?

[racoll]

Still looks like

Parotocinclus spilosoma

to me

It should be easy to find some more. They are collected with

Parotocinclus jumbo

, and are always found together in the same shipments.

[Karsten S.]

Hi,

this is definitely Parotocinclus sp.
What is often refered to as P. spilosoma is as far as I know not really proven to be that species.
The clear marks (spots and partly lines) are not mentionned in the scientific description of that species although the location of the holotype.

It is therefore safer to call them P. sp. "Recife". They are quite variable with respect to colouration, when they are fully grown they often look like yours. I'm very sure that you have a female of P. Sp. "Recife" (I breed them).

As Racoll already pointed out, if you look carefully you can quite often find a few specimen of them between P. jumbo as they share the same habitat.
However, you won't find them with their real name as the are not officially exported (which is forbidden) - at least here in Germany they are always sold just as P. jumbo.

Cheers,
Karsten

[racoll]

What is often refered to as P. spilosoma is as far as I know not really proven to be that species.
The clear marks (spots and partly lines) are not mentionned in the scientific description of that species although the location of the holotype.

It is therefore safer to call them P. sp. "Recife". They are quite variable with respect to colouration, when they are fully grown they often look like yours. I'm very sure that you have a female of P. Sp. "Recife" (I breed them).

You are correct Karsten. I was aware of this issue, but I thought it might confuse matters further if I threw another name in there.

I have actually seen tanks of "P. jumbo" comprising entirely of this P. sp. "Recife" species.