New import by Glaser,: Tatia dunni

[kruseman]

This might be interesting. Too bad it is a wholesaler...

http://www.aquariumglaser.de/de/tatia-d ... _1202.html

[apistomaster]

These look like a welcome addition to the hobby.
Glaser exports all over the world and as long as the fish is not extremely rare, it should begin showing up at the better stocked fish shops.

[nvcichlids]

ohhhh do I hope I see some of these available... holy gorgeousness...

[Marc van Arc]

I believe we already have this one listed as

Glanidium leopardum

(??)

[apistomaster]

Looks like a match to me.
I haven't had any woodcats since I lost my 20 C. perugiae to a disease a nonquarantined group of H. pulcher Tetras I bought from the LFS and put in their tank but I still miss them. They introduced something similar to or was actually Columnaris and it is a fast moving disease. All 20 were dead within 7 days. Some species are very susceptible to Columnaris.
They only new catfish I have acquired in the past few years other than a group of Parotocinclus cf. eppelyi is a group of 8 L10a, Red Lizard Whiptails but I still would like to someday breed some C. perugiae. They represent a bit of unfinished business to me. I have yet to breed any type of wood cats.
I only like to work with fairly small species. L333 are the largest catfish I breed.

[Silurus]

Given that this is what Glanidium leopardum actually looks like:

Isn't it time to correct the Cat-eLog?

[Marc van Arc]

Given that this is what Glanidium leopardum actually looks like:

G. leopardum.jpg

Isn't it time to correct the Cat-eLog?

I would ID HH's picture as a Tatia or Centromochlus for sure - as always based on looks.
For the same reason I'd say the Tatia dunni can't be a Tatia - just have a look at the head shape.
Must be something internal then? Anyway, it's a good thing I'm no scientist
However, I still have some donkey DNA, so I will have a look into the Tatia revision today.

On a side note: my only specimen of Glanidium leopardum was listed as Tatia sp. Peru about two years ago. Were they (sort of) right after all?

[Silurus]

I did not identify the fish in that photograph as G. leopardum. Carl Ferraris did. Are you suggesting that Carl's ID is wrong?

[The.Dark.One]

I've ordered 6 of the "T. dunni". Hopefully they will be here next Wednesday, fingers crossed.

[Marc van Arc]

I'm not suggesting anything, except the fact that it is becoming more and more difficult for me (as an amateur) to ID auchenipterids, even on genus level.
The things I used to "work" with (shape, colour patterns and such) now seem pretty useless. Outdated books and much contradicting information (internet) don't help much either.
I was expressing that I felt at a loss in that respect.
I did not say you identified the fish btw.

[The.Dark.One]

Marc. An interesting read on the current distinctions between Glanidium, Tatia and Centromochlus is:

Soares-Porto, L. M. 1998
Monophyly and interrelationships of the Centromochlinae (Siluriformes: Auchenipteridae). Pp. 331-350. In: Malabarba et al. 1998, Phylogeny and classification of Neotropical fishes. Edipucrs, Porto Alegre. 1-603.

As you said, the 'older' ways are not reliable and you would now have to use morphological characteristics to differentiate the three, which isn't always easy in live fishes.

[MatsP]

We probably should (in some shortened/clearer form, if necessary and possible) put these differences into the Cat-eLog as "Genus identification".

--
Mats

[Jools]

We probably should (in some shortened/clearer form, if necessary and possible) put these differences into the Cat-eLog as "Genus identification".

Strongly agree with that. Anyone know the source of the Glaser ID?

Jools

[Jools]

Given that this is what Glanidium leopardum actually looks like:

G. leopardum.jpg

Isn't it time to correct the Cat-eLog?

Maybe, but it would be a shame not to have a picture for it. Could I ask who the photographer is of your uploaded pic and I'll go and see if we may use it.

Cheers,

Jools

[Silurus]

Anyone know the source of the Glaser ID?

Probably this.

[Silurus]

Could I ask who the photographer is of your uploaded pic and I'll go and see if we may use it.

You may recognize the photo as having the hand of Mark Sabaj Pérez (this was scanned from my copy of the Checklist of Freshwater Fishes of the Guiana Shield). I'm sure Mark would be quite willing to send you a copy for the Cat-eLog.

[The.Dark.One]

Anyone know the source of the Glaser ID?

Probably this.

Yes I think so too. They list it on the link, and are probably using fig. 19b to support the ID.

[sidguppy]

now THAT was a very interesting link and I saved it right away for my collection of science papers on catfishes

tnx!

[Marc van Arc]

We probably should (in some shortened/clearer form, if necessary and possible) put these differences into the Cat-eLog as "Genus identification".

Strongly agree with that.

The thing is that these differences between the genera are mainly based on internal differences.
Or, as a scientist wrote: "The Soares-Porto diagnoses of the two(*) genera are based on features of bones that may group species together into natural groups, even if the species do not necessarily appear similarly externally".

meaning Tatia and Centromochlus

[The.Dark.One]

Looking at the Soares-Porto paper the diagnostic characters aren't internal. They are external but for the general aquarist will be very difficult to explain, observe, and understand.

[Marc van Arc]

Looking at the Soares-Porto paper the diagnostic characters aren't internal. They are external but for the general aquarist will be very difficult to explain, observe, and understand.

I lack the knowledge to dispute whether they are internal or external, yet after reading/trying to understand the following (taken from the Tatia Revision by Soares-Porto, 2008)

Diagnosis. Tatia is distinguished among the Centromochlinae
by three uniquely derived features. The hyomandibula is elongate
anterodorsally, not contacting the narrow metapterygoid
and, instead, connected only to the trapezoidal quadrate (Fig.
2); anal-fin base of adult males is reduced (anal-fin base length
3.3-8.0% SL); and caudal peduncle is compressed and deep
(caudal-peduncle depth 10.1-18.6% SL), with a middorsal keel
posterior to adipose fin.
A unique combination of restricted characters aids in distinguishing
Tatia: first (anteriormost) nuchal plate present
(Fig. 3, n1); infraorbital 1 bone short, limited to anterior corner
of orbit; eye moderately large, between 17.4-42.9% HL; maxilla
shorter than or same length as autopalatine; retractor
tentaculi muscle absent, functionally substituted by maxillomandibular
ligament (Sarmento-Soares & Porto, 2006); adult
males with modified anal fin (all species), and first unbranched
anal-fin ray non-segmented or with segments fused (except
in T. brunnea).

I certainly agree with your last line.

[The.Dark.One]

Yes, some of those are 'internal' but most are external. Having said that, using live fishes it would still be difficult for some of the diagnosing characters.

[Jools]

Anyone care to share what these are selling at? UK?

Jools

[Marc van Arc]

Anyone care to share what these are selling at? UK?

Not UK, but I paid 8 euros for my specimen (sold as Tatia sp. Peru) about 2.5 years ago.
They had 2 specimens, but one jumped out of the tank a day before I was going to pick them up (according to the LFS).
These also came from Germany, but apparently not from Glaser.

Sorry, but this picture from above is the best I have atm (taken on arrival; about 2.5 cms TL at the time; currently about 8.5 cms TL)

[The.Dark.One]

I picked up my 6 today. The fontanel, locality and pattern do appear to match T. dunni. The true T. aulopygia is similar but has a smaller and differently placed fontanel. Here is a male and female. They are a bit washed out after a trip from Germany.

[Jools]

I looked into getting 6 shipped to Scotland and it was going to be around £150 for 6 fish. So, I passed, nice fish though I think when they colour up.

Jools

[Richard B]

Steve - any news on your order?

BTW some other nice fish on the Glaser list http://www.aquariumglaser.de/de/fish.ph ... 14&lang=de

[Marc van Arc]

Steve - any news on your order?

Two postings up

[The.Dark.One]

BTW some other nice fish on the Glaser list http://www.aquariumglaser.de/de/fish.ph ... 14&lang=de

Yeah they get some good stuff. They had some young Astroblepus sp but they all went/died. I'll keep an eye out for what they have as I can now get their fish reasonably easy if the shops won't order them.

[Marc van Arc]

How about that Glanidium (?) of 40 cms