Quick answer needed for an imminent pleco purchase: Guahiborum, gold nugget, or Panaqolus?

[bekateen]

Okay, so for a while now I've been looking forward to buying a group of 4-6 spotted orange seam plecos (

Hemiancistrus guahiborum

) from my LFS. These fish were suppose to go into a 20 Gal tank with six

Centromochlus perugiae

. You can read about those plans (more like ruminations) here: What is a good tankmate for Centromochlus perugiae? and here: What can you tell me about Hemiancistrus guahiborum, L106?.

The shipment arrives today, and the confirmation inventory reveals that the guahiborum are not present; they were withheld by the wholesaler at the last moment for health reasons... I can live with that, and it's probably better for the fish in the long run.

In the meantime, the LFS received several other spp. of plecos, which they don't normally carry but they are offering to me as alternatives to the guahiborum:

Panaqolus albivermis

Panaqolus albomaculatus

Baryancistrus xanthellus

The main problem is that all of these fish get much bigger than guahiborum (According to their CLOGS, 5+ inches for the two Panaqolus and 9+ inches for the gold nuggets; by comparison, according to my research, guahiborum seems to reach 4+ inches).

From what I can tell, the two Panaqolus have about the same needs as my clown plecos (only they are bigger), so I feel as though I would know how to take care of them. By contrast, I've read that gold nuggets can be delicate and a little difficult to take care of. Not only that, I haven't even checked yet to see if they would be compatible with my C. perugiae.

So my options are these:

1. Don't buy anything now; wait an indefinite time for another order of guahiborum (note: my LFS rarely uses this wholesaler, and this order was placed especially for me to receive the guahiborum; all the other fish were ordered just to help the LFS get up to the minimum order... my point here is that it may be a long while before these are ordered again).
2. Buy some of any of the other three species listed above. This LFS has very good prices so the temptation to buy is high.

If I do buy any of the above species, it won't be a group of 4-6. It would probably be only 2-3 because they are going into a 20 Gal tank. For the two Panaqolus spp., if I buy 2-3 of a species that would still make for a very crowded tank, probably not good. And honestly, I don't know if these fish will be of sexable size, so buying only 2-3 poses a much bigger risk in terms of not getting both sexes.

From what I've read about the gold nuggets, the 20 Gal tank essentially excludes the gold nuggets (no matter how small they are at the time of purchase) since they get so big. There is a chance, albeit slim, that sometime after the holidays or early next Spring I'll upgrade to a 75 Gal. But until that's settled, I hesitate to buy the gold nuggets because it seems that they won't stay healthy or happy in the 20 Gal.

Frankly, I'm somewhat inclined to pass altogether and wait for more guahiborum, realizing that they might not come for a very long time, if at all. But at the same time, the albivermis were on my original list of options when I first raised the possibility of setting up this tank (What is a good tankmate for Centromochlus perugiae?). I guess even then it didn't dawn on me quite how long they might get (I see in the BLOGS for albivermis that indeed the reproductively active adults exceed 5 inches SL, so I'm under no illusion that the CLOG is inaccurate). And although I didn't consider albomaculatus, it appears that they are about the same as albivermis, so if I buy either I think it would work out, as long as I stick to a smaller social group of 2-3. So my only other negative thought about these two species is that they are both just "more Panaqolus." Although they are both more striking than my clown plecos, at some level they also represent more of the same. By contrast, my original guahiborum and the gold nuggets are something completely different from my clown plecos, so they have much more appeal to me.

What would you do? Would you wait patiently for the smaller guahiborum? Or go for one of the Panaqolus? And about the gold nuggets, am I missing something? Are they actually smaller than I expect and easier to care for? Or are my impressions correct that a 20 Gal tank is just too small for 2 or 3 of them?

If dreams came true... What I'd really like to hear you folks confirm is that it's safe to get the gold nuggets (even though I don't see how that would be so)... I'd give my wisdom teeth to get those IF they would work in my 20 Gal tank with the C. perugiae. (note - this isn't really much of a bet; I already had my wisdom teeth pulled, so there's almost no sacrifice there, LOL) But my intuition tells me that anyone with experience in gold nuggets is going to say, "Don't buy them. You don't have the right setup." And that's okay - that's what I need to hear if they are a bad choice.

I may be going to see the fish tomorrow, although I doubt the LFS will release them from observation for several days after shipping.

Any help/advice/experience you can offer will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Eric

[naturalart]

Hi Eric, it was good hanging with you a few weeks ago. Thanks for the hospitality. But concerning your question: personally, I would stay the course particularly because you have your heart set on the guahiborum. You will put more energy into those fish simply because you have more interest there. And you may already know those Panaqolus spp. are going to be more work as they eat more wood. Which means more tank cleaning. I don't know, but I have heard that the gold nuggets do like 'higher' water quality. And I've seen some big gold nuggets. 20 gallons seems small for them.

BTW, what are they asking for the P. albivermis?

And I may see you at the next fish meet/big auction. Good Luck!

[Jobro]

Hey Eric,

I ordered 7 albivermis wild caughts in early August. When they arrived they were only about 4.5-5cm TL. I wasn't sure if wild caughts at that small size would be able to survive. Hearing that they usually arrive starving due to lack of wood or plants during transportation, I wasn't too sure about their future. Now after about 6 weeks all 7 of them are still doing fine. The colours are striking, "yellow flash" is really appropriate for them, I really hope the colour won't fade all too soon. Though they really look amazing there is one thing I love even more than their looks: They are absolutely not shy. They did never hide from day 1. Always out in the light on wood, leafs or stones. Always one of the first at feeding. They are in a 400L community tank. It's well planted, well illuminated and I have some Hypancistrus in there that I usually never see unless I use a flash light into some certain caves. But with the albivermis I can see at least 3-4 at first glance. And I will usually find all 7 of them within a minute. I Have 6 L201 BN in there, too, they aren't shy either but I will only see all 6 of them during feeding time, and not even then. So in my case the albivermiss are the most showing plecos I had so far. Maybe common BN will be similary often seen, but I don't have any. Maybe they will get more shy as they grow, I really hope they won't, but right now I just love them.

If one has ever seen a golden nugget in real, he will undoubtedly understand the temptation to buy them asap. I always wanted some, but was always afraid even the 400L tank would not be enough. Knowing you, I'd assume you're going to be breeding your next plecos, so Golden Nuggets would definitely be a challenge. But the sheer size of grown ups will make it hard to handle. Big tanks need big waterchanges - quite a hassle if you're going to stimulate rainy seasons or stuff. They will also need higher temps, 32-33°C was reported for spawning, with a prior 28°C during rainy season simulation. Still, plecos grow slowly, so buying youngsters (5-6cm) right now will get you ready in 3-4 years. Enough time to establish a big enough tank if your serious about it. A 75G tank might be big enough if it's a species only tank. Some say they are quite territorial, others say the opposite, well, different fish do have different characters. Maybe if you would go for a special tank made for you with something like 150x50x35 cm = ~70G. Reducing height won't hurt your plecos (maybe even 30cm height is enough?) and you'd still have a huge bottom area for them while you won't have too much water volume for comfortable waterchanges and It's way easier to handle cleaning and stuff than in a deeper tank. Handmade tanks are usually not that expensive (just got a 140x40x25 for 102€ for my Apistogrammas). So golden nuggets are not impossible by default, it depends on your plans for the future.

L106 himself seems interesting by the fact that I never saw him anywhere around here. seems to be rather rare. I found one guy trying to spawn them on the interwebz, but no confirmed spawning. Might be a challenge. But maybe they are just rare to the fact that they are not that shiny and colourful and thereby not commercially viable for most breeders? You saw them, you liked them and you decided to go for them. So that's fine, wait some months to get them

Still P. albivermis or Golden nugget looks more attractive to me. But this is about your plecos and you should go with what you like.

Johannes

[bekateen]

Thanks for the perspectives, Clay and Johannes.

I'm still undecided what I will do. What I'm not hearing you (or anyone else) is that I misunderstand the requirements of keeping gold nuggets - they do get big and they are a bit difficult to care for. At this time, I don't have the motivation to set up a larger tank, like the 75 Gal I've considered, so the gold nuggets are now off the table. I still have to decide whether to get any of either of the two Panaqolus spp.

Johannes, I agree the albivermis are striking in appearance so I might get a couple of those. I've never seen albomaculatus in person, so I don't have an opinion yet. And actually I don't mind the sawdust poop created by the Panaqolus. Maybe it's because old driftwood is so nutrient poor (in terms of Nitrogen content), but my clown pleco tank stays remarkably clean, chemically speaking: even though it has dirty water in terms of solid debris (poop), nitrates are consistently zero in that tank.... the point is, I'm okay with vacuuming the tank. For me the issue is more about whether I want to take on fish which weren't my "target species" (the guahiborum) just because they are available at a very good price and they look nice.

Clay, you're right about where my heart is. I really want to get some of the guahiborum, so no matter what I do this week, I am asking the LFS owner to reorder the guahiborum, even if it means waiting 2-3 months or more to get them. What is somewhat odd about the guahiborum is that they are not that expensive, at least compared to the other fish under consideration in this thread, but they are the least common of these in all the LFS around me... which I think is strange because I read in a scientific article that they are being harvested at a high rate in the wild for export, and they are an extremely common species in at least some of the areas where they are found. If they are that easy to get and that cheap, and IMHO that good looking, I don't know why they aren't more common in LFS (it's a wonder they haven't appeared at PetSmart, LOL... Even albivermis is sold in some PetSmarts!)

@naturalart, it was a pleasure to meet you too and hang out at the Sacramento Aquarium Society meeting. I am planning to attend next month's mega auction, so hopefully I'll see you there. If you do attend, please let me know in advance and I'll bag up some of my baby ABNs (~ 1-1.5 inches TL) for you. I still have too many, I need to move some out, and of course it's always good to share, right?

Cheers, Eric

[bekateen]

BTW, what are they asking for the P. albivermis?

Good question. The LFS owner asked me to withhold details until he knows that the fish arrived healthy and ready for sale (he didn't want me to say he had the fish if he didn't receive them, or if they came in sick). He is supposed to pick up the fish at the airport early this morning, so I should know later today if it's okay to post. When I hear from him, I'll post a message in the "For Sale" forum along the lines of, "Look what I found for sale locally..." with a list of all catfish he received in this order and their prices, in case any local PlanetCatfish members are interested in visiting his store and getting some (the prices really are good, in my opinion). Unfortunately for PC members who live farther away, this LFS is not an internet store and doesn't do mail-order sales, so if you want any of these, you'll need to be able to come into the store.

Cheers, Eric

[bekateen]

UPDATE: Okay, so I decided to buy three mustard spot plecos (

Panaqolus albomaculatus

). Quickly, here's a couple of photos of the quarantine tank I put them in, and a decent photo of one of the fish.

The smallest individual was about 65mm SL, and the longest about 75mm SL. I'm not sure if they should be sexable at this size, but since my clown plecos started breeding at about half their max SL, I would hope these are at least in the process of maturing sexually by this size, if not all the way through "fish puberty" (if there is such a thing - I know they hang out in schools, but do they hate Junior High as much as most humans do?... Okay, that joke was stupid; never mind).

I tried to get two females and one male. But honestly, they all looked pretty much alike to me - slender bodies (maybe due to age/size, or possibly to less-than-excellent condition as received from the wholesaler, or both); small odontodes on the pectorals and on the posterior body wall, and potentially ambiguous genital papillae (actually, this may be my best hope - I thought I could see slight differences here, although it may prove to be a figment of my imagination.

I took careful photos of all three fish, from several angles, hoping to be able to sex them, or at least track their growth and development to see which sexes I end up with. I'm going to spend some time studying these photos and see if I can discern any differences, then I'll post them in a new thread for all to see. EDIT: The new thread has been created. It can be found here: Mustard spot pleco (Panaqolus albomaculatus) project.

Cheers, Eric

P.S., Yeah, I know, there are a LOT of bamboo caves in that tank (a 10 Gal). But these three fish are the only occupants. I added lots of caves because I wanted them to have plenty of places to hide from each other. I just hope these caves aren't too narrow.

[Jobro]

7.5cm SL should be pretty much sexually mature I'd guess.
Nice pleco you got there. At least they don't seem too shy, good for you, maybe they are similar to my L204. Always nice to actually see more than just their tails hanging out of a cave

This fellow has a huge tail fin! Do all three of them have those huge tail fins?

[bekateen]

At least they don't seem too shy... This fellow has a huge tail fin! Do all three of them have those huge tail fins?

They weren't too shy their first night home - I think they were stunned (LOL). But this morning, they are all hiding in the caves or under the slate. I expect this will be the routine, but I agree with you - it would be nice to see them out and about more often, especially with fins up like this.

The two largest both have really big caudal fins. The smallest has a pretty big tail, but not as splendid as either of the larger fish, at least as it appears in my photos which I still need to sort. But maybe it just wasn't photographed at the best angle.

Cheers, Eric