Peckoltia sp

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 08 Dec 2003, 18:33

Hi!

I have two of these, they are closely related to Peckoltia vittata but likely to be another species. They were sold as Peckoltia sp aff vittata.
I believe it might be L09, or at least it is the closest I have found... any idea

here is a pic of the mouth and teeth

Cheers
Yann

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 09 Dec 2003, 09:07

Can you post a pic of the whole body with dorsal and caudal fins erect? Would agree it is not P. vittata and the marking look too distinct for L009. I'm thinking along the lines of L80 or similar.

Jools

Post by **Shane** » 09 Dec 2003, 12:27

I was thinking L 202. but need to see a full body shot.
-Shane

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 09 Dec 2003, 18:29

Hi!

Here is the body shot:

Cheers
Yann

Post by **Janne** » 09 Dec 2003, 20:59

Very similar to my fish, the only thing I know about it is that was shipped out from Colombia but collected in Venezuela.

I have 6 of them and all have small variations in the stripes, this one was the most beautiful one. The other are not so sharp in the colours and look more paler as your pic, they was listed as LDA19.

Janne

Post by **Shane** » 10 Dec 2003, 01:33

OK, I am stumped. I would call Yanne's fish closer to L 103 (DATZ NOT Aqualog) and Jannes' closer to L 199 (once again DATZ NOT Aqualog, in Aqualog they have a photo of Panaque albomaculatus!)
The main problem with all of these small striped Panaque/Peckoltia is that that they all look very similar and, more importantly, they change color patterns as they mature. If you tried to identify LDA 22 as Panaque maccus you would be stumped as the photo is of a very young fish and older P. maccus have a very different color pattern.
Janne, who told you that your fish were collected in Venezuela but exported from Colombia? I can hardly see any collector ever admitting this and have never seen an exporter travel to Puerto Carreno to talk to collectors (way too dangerous). I am not saying that your fish were not collected in Venezuela and shipped from Colombia as it is a common practice. I am just saying that I can not imagine any collector admitting they did this. It would be like telling a car dealer that he was selling cars for cheap and him responding, "Sure they are cheap, I stole them all from the Netherlands."
-Shane

pleco_breeder · Post by **pleco_breeder** » 10 Dec 2003, 01:36

Hello all,
I get a kick out of identifying the oddballs, so I had to jump on this one. I had to look all over the place, but the fish is L-243. A juvenile is shown in Aqualog supplement #9. A better photo of the adult can be found at http://www.transfish.de/LCode/L243.jpg

It's good to be back,
Larry Vires

Post by **Janne** » 10 Dec 2003, 21:12

I have tryed for years to get some LDA19 but have failed every time, this wholesaler here in sweden have very good conection with the exporters in SA and I have ordered them several times and always get either L129 or L199 so I have them also

This latest attempt give me these instead and the exporter was very sure this time that he have the right fish and declared that these was collected in Venezuela and that this must be the one, I cant be sure that he is telling me the truth...I dont know him and the fish really dont look like LDA19 so I'm still looking for the real one.
The fish in the pic above are around 5" / 12 cm and the others are smaller 3,5" / 8-9 cm.
I have succeded to breed them twice allready and the oldest fry are now 1 month and it will be very interesting to see how the fry elaborates in pattern and colour when it gets older.

Janne

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 10 Dec 2003, 21:39

Hi!

Janne your fish has a similar pattern but clearly show typical Hypancistrus body shape... I'll be waiting for your breeding article...

, the network pattern does look similar to what have L340, but the colour is different... yes would be intersting to see how the fry evolute.

Larry:
I find the L243 head a bit too long compare to my fish. the body pattern is something similar but still have good differences, the tail is not as forked as on L243, the pectoral rays are rather short and the body seem to be higher on my fish than on L243.
I have two individuals, and both exihib similar body shape and pattern. they total lenght is 15cm/6in.

Cheers
Yann

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 30 Dec 2003, 10:51

Hi!

Well I have ask Erwin about this one and he also think it might be L09... another species that seems to be pretty variable...

Cheers
Yann

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 30 Dec 2003, 11:39

Janne wrote:Very similar to my fish, the only thing I know about it is that was shipped out from Colombia but collected in Venezuela.

I have 6 of them and all have small variations in the stripes, this one was the most beautiful one. The other are not so sharp in the colours and look more paler as your pic, they was listed as LDA19.

Janne

Janne, can you post of picture of the teeth of your fish? If you fish is <I>Hypancistrus</I> as I suspect it is, the teeth should differ significantly from the picture Yann very helpfully posted.

Jools

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 30 Dec 2003, 11:41

yannfulliquet wrote:Hi!

Here is the body shot:

Cheers
Yann

That looks like L009 to me, bear in mind that many of the first l-numbers are much more commonly available (averaged over time) than other ones. L009 is a toughie becuase it is so variable and has quite indistinct patterning.

Jools

Erwin · Post by **Erwin** » 30 Dec 2003, 11:59

Just want to give my piece of thoughts. As Yann already wrote I believe his pictures shows L9. Jannes fish is clearly L199, you can tell them apart from the similar looking L270 by the round head-shape, even if you don't know where its from. Also the distribution (border of Colombia to Venezuela) fits exactly for L199. You can not go to much on the pattern of the fish, because these Hypancistrus s.l. all have a more or less individual pattern besides a species pattern.

Erwin

kgroenhoej · Post by **kgroenhoej** » 30 Dec 2003, 17:34

Hi,

Jannes fish is clearly L199, you can tell them apart from the similar looking L270 by the round head-shape, even if you don't know where its from.

I have some Hypancistrus sp. I bought as L270, but your comment make me doubt this.
I don't think mine look like Jannes fish. Are mine L270 or something else?

Regards
Klaus

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 30 Dec 2003, 18:23

Hi!

I was thinking at L316 Hypancistrus sp "Rio Jari", there are some similarities...
Since when do you have these? Before 08/2002??
Cheers
Yann

Post by **Janne** » 30 Dec 2003, 19:48

Janne, can you post of picture of the teeth of your fish? If you fish is Hypancistrus as I suspect it is, the teeth should differ significantly from the picture Yann very helpfully posted.

I will try to take a pic of the teeth but I also are convinced that they are a Hypancistrus species but not L-199 like Erwin sudgested, I have these also and they are not the same species.
I can take a photo of them both together for comparing.

Janne

Erwin · Post by **Erwin** » 30 Dec 2003, 21:20

Let me tell you Janne, why I am very very sure, that your fish is a L199. From all similiar looking Hypancistrus species (L270, LDA76 and L316), is L199 the one with the biggest eyes. LDA19=L340 has different pattern. Anyhow, L199 is a Hypancistrus! Who said its not?

At first glance I dought the fish from Klaus is also a L199, because its pattern are very very similiar to specimens of L199 which I have seen. But Yann might be right and this is L316. This ist also a Hypancistrus with a huge variety of pattern, but alltogether it owns a light grey base coloration, and is not so yellowish as L199. Also I would say is the size of the eyes similar small. L270 and L316 are more difficult to tell apart. Seen from the top I noticed in many of the L316, that they have the first spine in their pectoral fins striped cross to the direction of the spine, while most L270 have a stripe along the spine. But unfortunately their are exceptions. So its really difficult Klaus, it could be L316 or L270.

Erwin

Post by **Rusty** » 30 Dec 2003, 21:52

Speaking of L199, what do you think this guy is?

It's under 199 in the Cat-eLog, but I'm not confident that it is in fact L199. It hasn't grown much in the year we've had it, and it has kept that same pattern.

Rusty

Erwin · Post by **Erwin** » 30 Dec 2003, 22:01

Janne wrote:... always get either L129 or L199 so I have them also
Janne

Janne, did you follow the old aqualog when you ID your L199, because it is strange to me that you don't agree with Shane and me, about the ID of the fish on the picture. Maybe you can post a picture of the fish you call L199, please?

Erwin

kgroenhoej · Post by **kgroenhoej** » 30 Dec 2003, 22:03

Hi,

Thank you for your help.

Whow! Quiet different at a first look from all others which I have seen Klaus. I don't think they are L316 Yann. Because this is a pretty small species, which does not have such an elongated body, and it also owns a different headshape. From all L-numbers again L199 seems to be most closest in body form and how the pattern are aranged. The main difference is only the more greyish silvery base coloration. This also L270 and LDA76 have in common. But if yours would be more yellowish, the similarity to L199 would be bigger. A top view picture could help a little bit, because L199 owns a wider body than L270. Both are Hypancistrus, so a look in the mouth doesn't help much, even the L199 which I have seen have dark orange, almost red teeth, while they are yellow in L270. But I have checked that in a to few number of specimens, and can't say thats so in general.

Nice looking fish, Klaus!

Erwin

Hmm. I still have my doubt - I've seen Hypancistrus sp. looking like mine at a different LFS (and from a different import-shipment, but maybe from the same exporter) and this LFS also calls it L270.
Strange enough - some of these fish had silver stribes and other had yellowish (almost gold) stribes but they were without a doubt the same sp. (I was visiting this LFS for 2 days and I think I was there for 2 hours total - just looking at these fish

)

Maybe an exporter is calling them L270 by mistake.

Another pic of one of mine:

You can compare my pictures with a picture of L270 from Transfish:

Funny - it has almost the same strange pattern on the tail (you may not see this on the pictures, but the pattern on the P. fins also match). The white lines on the body are however a bit wider and there's a bit more of them.
Another pic from Transfish of a L199:

and finally a pic also from Transfish of a L316:

It would be nice to know which Hypancistrus it is - I've got the 5.th. cluster of eggs right now.

Since when do you have these? Before 08/2002??

hehe - I got them approx. 13/07/2002 - close

Regards
Klaus

Erwin · Post by **Erwin** » 30 Dec 2003, 22:08

Rusty wrote:Speaking of L199, what do you think this guy is?
Rusty

Even you say Rusty, that it has not changed, an actually picture would help a lot. The big eyes suggest L199, the shape of its head and the more greyish basic coloration places him closer to L270. But in a juvenile you never can be sure.

Erwin

Erwin · Post by **Erwin** » 30 Dec 2003, 22:17

Klaus, you trapped me

Men, you're fast!:

kgroenhoej wrote:
Whow! Quiet different at a first look from all others which I have seen Klaus. I don't think they are L316 Yann. Because this is a pretty small species, which does not have such an elongated body, and it also owns a different headshape. From all L-numbers again L199 seems to be most closest in body form and how the pattern are aranged. The main difference is only the more greyish silvery base coloration. This also L270 and LDA76 have in common. But if yours would be more yellowish, the similarity to L199 would be bigger. A top view picture could help a little bit, because L199 owns a wider body than L270. Both are Hypancistrus, so a look in the mouth doesn't help much, even the L199 which I have seen have dark orange, almost red teeth, while they are yellow in L270. But I have checked that in a to few number of specimens, and can't say thats so in general.

Nice looking fish, Klaus!

Erwin
Klaus

This was my first answer, but then I compared several pictures of both, L270 and L316, and came to the conclusion, that both L-numbers would be possible, so I deleted my original answer.

Erwin

Post by **Dinyar** » 31 Dec 2003, 01:14

Erwin wrote:
Rusty wrote:Speaking of L199, what do you think this guy is?
Rusty
Even you say Rusty, that it has not changed, an actually picture would help a lot. The big eyes suggest L199, the shape of its head and the more greyish basic coloration places him closer to L270. But in a juvenile you never can be sure.

Erwin

This is another picture of our fish taken when it was first acquired on 17 June 2002. It has hardly grown or changed at all since then, and is still less than 4 cm SL. I'm not sure it can be considered a juvenile, as we've already had it for 19 months and it must have been more than a year old when we got it. We'll try to put up a current picture soon.

Dinyar

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 31 Dec 2003, 09:14

Hi Rusty!

I would also think it is L199. I have found 5 of these mislabeled as Peckoltia vittata (lol).
The biggest of them is now 6cm SL, and really have that disproportionate eye...
One or two individuals also show thinner "grey" lines which has been bothering me a bit as to some point they are looking like L129...but the 3 remaining are L199 for sure...
Cheers
Yann

Post by **Janne** » 31 Dec 2003, 16:01

Erwin

Janne, did you follow the old aqualog when you ID your L199, because it is strange to me that you don't agree with Shane and me, about the ID of the fish on the picture. Maybe you can post a picture of the fish you call L199, please?

I dont trust in the old aqualog so I use the Cat-elog

These are old pics of my L-199, my camera is not so good but I will buy a new one this weekend and take some new pics of both species for comparing.

Janne

Erwin · Post by **Erwin** » 01 Jan 2004, 12:24

Hi Janne,

I have no problem to see in the new pictures, and in the one you have posted before, the same species. Both look like L199 to me, the different pattern are just expressions of the more or less individual pattern all(?) these and especially the "wave-lined" Hypancistrus-species own. If you have acces to the Britsh journal "Today's Fishkeeper", you can find in the march issue from last year (2003) the article "Zebra plecs and their relatives". Its about the huge variety in this genus, with lots of photographs of different individuals. Also the Aqualog Extra "The latest L-Numbers" show this variety in some of the later released L-Numbers (like L316).

The problem is in these fishes really to find characters which all members of one L-number have in common, which can't be found in an other L-number. It is not the pattern, that is for sure. For L199 its the shorter snout, the more rounder profile of the head from the side, the broader body seen from the top, and the larger eyes, compared to otheres. For L270 its the sattle-profile of the somewhat longer snout, the bigger eyes compared to L316. LDA76 is my "problem child", because I don't know from what river in Brazil its from. It was shipped via Manaus, so I guessed it has a rio Negro drainage origin. But in Brazil they are shipping ornamental fish higgledy-piggledy through the country, before they are exported. The original fish of LDA76 which appeared first, showed clear differences in the nape-stripe, which was not just running down straight from the nape to the operculum, like in all others of these similar looking L-numbers. That stripe had a kind of beek close to the eye. But later shipped individuals from the same exporter did not show that anymore, and looked more like the common L270. So I am not sure anymore, if both could not be the same species.

Sorry for my long texts. I hope I could explain a little bit the differences.

ERwin

Post by **Janne** » 03 Jan 2004, 08:51

Erwin,
I think you have right when it comes to my different L-199, I'm not an expert like you

I have two groups, 6 of them look exactly like my first pic with slightly different pattern and the other 6 look exactly like my last pic. Maybe that are locally differentes in this species and thats why they dont come mixed from the exporter, the prettier one is much more expensive.
Anyway I will not mix them in my breedingtanks before I really feel 100 % certain they are the same species, the first group have spawn three times until now and that are some different between this species and other Hypancistrus when it comes to hatching of the eggs and growing rate of the youngster, the other group that I felt sure they are L-199 have not breed yet.
I have ordered a new camera in a internet shop so I will not be able to take some new pics this weekend but will put them up in a new thread later.

Janne

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 08 Jan 2004, 23:03

HI!

JUst received the Aqualog book: The Latest L-NUmber ( really great)
Well as I was looking through my eyes stop at LDA61 and LDA62 and I must admitt that also these show some similarities with my Peckoltia... as these 2 also seems to show great pattern variation amon individuals...
Any Idea, any comment?
Cheers
Yann